I would say it's playing if you are able to mess up. For instance if you have the option to have a character "run and hide" or confront another character and the like I feel like it is played. If you are limited to only pursing an incredibly linear plot in only one manner than it is watched more than anything else.
Poll: Are visual novels "read" or "played"? Your opinion?
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Depends on the visual novel.
If it's something that includes a minigame to progress, like Symphonic Rain (or is a minigame to progress, like Princess Waltz), then played. If it's something that's got a huge number of twists and turns to navigate through to find everything, like Clannad or The Sagara Family (or if it's basically an open-world game, like Kagetsu Tohya), then played. If it's something that requires thought and trial/error to get to the right endings, like Tsukihime or Fate/Stay Night, then played.
If it's something with many choices which only serve to turn the plot in a few directions (including the possibility of premature or true Bad Endings), like A Drug That Makes You Dream or Kanon, arguable, but I lean slightly towards played. If it's something with many choices that have basically no impact on the overall plot, like Heart de Roommate, then I strongly lead towards read.
If there's no choices at all (like True Remembrance or Higurashi no Naku Koro ni), then it's called a kinetic or sound novel, and it's read like a book.
If the game has open stats and stat-building, it's a dating sim.
In VN parlance, CYoA books would be driven entirely by limited event flags, without complex event flags or event/relationship points. Some of the more linear VNs are sort of like that, but not all.
Granted, I've read CYoA books like sort of resembled that sketch, but only because they were incoherent messes with a "Twin Peaks meets Lost but somehow worse" style of storytelling cohesion.
If it's something that includes a minigame to progress, like Symphonic Rain (or is a minigame to progress, like Princess Waltz), then played. If it's something that's got a huge number of twists and turns to navigate through to find everything, like Clannad or The Sagara Family (or if it's basically an open-world game, like Kagetsu Tohya), then played. If it's something that requires thought and trial/error to get to the right endings, like Tsukihime or Fate/Stay Night, then played.
If it's something with many choices which only serve to turn the plot in a few directions (including the possibility of premature or true Bad Endings), like A Drug That Makes You Dream or Kanon, arguable, but I lean slightly towards played. If it's something with many choices that have basically no impact on the overall plot, like Heart de Roommate, then I strongly lead towards read.
If there's no choices at all (like True Remembrance or Higurashi no Naku Koro ni), then it's called a kinetic or sound novel, and it's read like a book.
If the game has open stats and stat-building, it's a dating sim.
Don Savik said:
Not really the best analogy in all cases. I've yet to see a Choose Your Own Adventure book include a statement of "if you selected positive or neutral on three of the follow pages: 23, 24, or 52, selected to continue forward on page 7, and have not read page 46, then turn to page 90."Sober Thal said:
In VN parlance, CYoA books would be driven entirely by limited event flags, without complex event flags or event/relationship points. Some of the more linear VNs are sort of like that, but not all.
Granted, I've read CYoA books like sort of resembled that sketch, but only because they were incoherent messes with a "Twin Peaks meets Lost but somehow worse" style of storytelling cohesion.
Well...They are visual novels, so they can be read... And they are visual novels, so they can be played... Meaning...
...Wait, gotta think real hard about this one for a second...
..Oh yeah, both! You CAN do both at the same time! Amazing!
Come on people, seriously? You read'em, and you play'em. That's... Pretty much all you do.
...Wait, gotta think real hard about this one for a second...
..Oh yeah, both! You CAN do both at the same time! Amazing!
Come on people, seriously? You read'em, and you play'em. That's... Pretty much all you do.
Middle ground: viewed?
Is this a thinly disguised version of the "how much gameplay does something need to be considered a game?" argument?
Is this a thinly disguised version of the "how much gameplay does something need to be considered a game?" argument?
I've always considered them a game. They're like the Fighting Fantasy books, where there's lots of choice and stats that make it more of a game than something you just passively read.
Oh, the Fate/Stay Night VN is very good OP, apart from the Heaven's Feel route.
Oh, the Fate/Stay Night VN is very good OP, apart from the Heaven's Feel route.
I'm voting for "reading", though I think it largely depends on what Visual novel you're... uhm... reading? Playing? Damn.
For instance. Planetarian had no choices whatsoever, so I guess this qualifies as being read.
Saya no Uta had only 2 choices in the entire novel. I think this goes in the reading catagory too.
Then there is stuff like Little Busters, where you have minigames in between. These are played right?
I think you could say both, but there will be a more appropiate choice depending on how much player interactivity the VN has.
For instance. Planetarian had no choices whatsoever, so I guess this qualifies as being read.
Saya no Uta had only 2 choices in the entire novel. I think this goes in the reading catagory too.
Then there is stuff like Little Busters, where you have minigames in between. These are played right?
I think you could say both, but there will be a more appropiate choice depending on how much player interactivity the VN has.
You didn't like Heaven's Feel? How come?Quicksilver_Phoenix said:
You're forgottting that some CYOA style books do indeed work exactly how you're describing, they just don't do it in an awkward way like that, as they've instead come up with a form that works more naturally in the medium.NeutralDrow said:
Instead of asking you to remember your choices, they simply put you along a path which only those specific choices get you to, and will lead you onto another exclusive section accordingly.
I remember reading some of those CYOA Goosebumps books, where i found myself on pages with very similar events/settings to a page from a different read through, but because i got there through a different path it was written differently to reflect this, and it's choices branched me off into different routes to the other similar page.
edit:
as for the topic, i'd say read. The primary activity you do is read with no actual 'play' beyond making choices. Choices aren't inherently 'played', choice is merely one element of what can create play.
They are both. I've only tried a few visual novels, but I think the real difference is between passive gaming and active gaming. In the shittier visual novels, players are just expected to read through 10,000 lines of dialogue, and apart from clicking the "next" button, they might get given a choice to make every 20 minutes or so. That is bad for a game but it seems to be par for the course with VNs. Those stories might as well have been made into a book instead; at least a book lets you read entire pages of dialogue without having to keep clicking forever.
A good visual novel gives you stuff to think about whilst you read. The best one I've played, "don't take it personally, babe, it just ain't your story" [http://scoutshonour.com/donttakeitpersonallybabeitjustaintyourstory/] does this well. The conceit of the game is that you are a teacher, spying on you're pupil's personal facebook/IM conversations. You're not just reading - you're going to use this information to make informed decisions, find out what is going on when you're not around, and trying not to get fired in the process. If you dislike visual novels, I recommend you at least try this one, which is a far cry from the standard VN. I've reviewed it here [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/review_comments.php?id=6335#listend], if you're curious to find out more. Note that I don't regularly indulge in this genre, so my views tend to put off those that do.
A good visual novel gives you stuff to think about whilst you read. The best one I've played, "don't take it personally, babe, it just ain't your story" [http://scoutshonour.com/donttakeitpersonallybabeitjustaintyourstory/] does this well. The conceit of the game is that you are a teacher, spying on you're pupil's personal facebook/IM conversations. You're not just reading - you're going to use this information to make informed decisions, find out what is going on when you're not around, and trying not to get fired in the process. If you dislike visual novels, I recommend you at least try this one, which is a far cry from the standard VN. I've reviewed it here [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/review_comments.php?id=6335#listend], if you're curious to find out more. Note that I don't regularly indulge in this genre, so my views tend to put off those that do.
I cant really say, its a mix to be honest. The clicking to me is just an electronic version of turning a page, both actions result in getting further along in the plot and continuing the story
The only visual novels I've properly read/played/whatever are Higurashi and Clannad because I loved the animes and I have to say that I did enjoy them, basically books with sounds and speech (I'm not really one for reading proper novels) and a sense of being there. Plus the decisions you can make are good throughout the stories too.
I did also play through one called KiraKira which someone recommended to me. I did enjoy going through that one, then it went quite a bit "H" towards the end............
It didn't ruin the experience for me but it sort of came out of nowhere.
The only visual novels I've properly read/played/whatever are Higurashi and Clannad because I loved the animes and I have to say that I did enjoy them, basically books with sounds and speech (I'm not really one for reading proper novels) and a sense of being there. Plus the decisions you can make are good throughout the stories too.
I did also play through one called KiraKira which someone recommended to me. I did enjoy going through that one, then it went quite a bit "H" towards the end............
It didn't ruin the experience for me but it sort of came out of nowhere.
It's an interesting question. I had a discussion about this a while back, and I had to come to the conclusion that visual novels with choices are games. If a game where you can become the all-mighty quick load warrior counts as playing, then so does picking a choice in a visual novel - both can be simply seen as going through every option, and quick loading back to the choice, until one finds the correct solution to get to the next divergence. The QL warrior quick saves after successfully dodging, the visual novel-er gets to the next choice, and this is repeated until the QL warrior wins the fight and the visual novel-er gets to the ending. Comparisons can be made to menu-based gameplay as well.
That being said, although visual novels with choices I consider games, I do not consider that you play them, merely that you interact with them. If you split an animation into its frames, a person views the slides, not watches them in the sense that someone would watch the animation in it's intended manner - in the same way, a QL warrior is taking gameplay, but then splitting it into very small parts that it becomes hard to be considered playing any more.
That being said, even the reading is very interactive. You click through every line, and it immerses you beyond using auto read. Consider the knock out animations of Deus Ex: Human Revolution and the knock out animations from the Dishonored E3 presentation, where the player button mashes momentarily to knock the target out. The latter is interacting with the game, even though all that interaction is doing is making the game go through its intended course - same thing with clicking through each VN line. But then it's the same thing as reading an Ebook, thus showing that nothing can be categorised simply.
TL;DR - you are constantly interacting with a visual novel, but interaction is not the same thing as playing, thus I would not consider visual novels things that you play, despite being games.
In case you hadn't guessed, I myself read visual novels. Ones I've read are Fate/Stay Night, half of Steins;Gate, Don't Take It Personally Babe It Just Ain't Your Story, Muv Luv Extra, currently reading the newly released Cinders.
That being said, although visual novels with choices I consider games, I do not consider that you play them, merely that you interact with them. If you split an animation into its frames, a person views the slides, not watches them in the sense that someone would watch the animation in it's intended manner - in the same way, a QL warrior is taking gameplay, but then splitting it into very small parts that it becomes hard to be considered playing any more.
That being said, even the reading is very interactive. You click through every line, and it immerses you beyond using auto read. Consider the knock out animations of Deus Ex: Human Revolution and the knock out animations from the Dishonored E3 presentation, where the player button mashes momentarily to knock the target out. The latter is interacting with the game, even though all that interaction is doing is making the game go through its intended course - same thing with clicking through each VN line. But then it's the same thing as reading an Ebook, thus showing that nothing can be categorised simply.
TL;DR - you are constantly interacting with a visual novel, but interaction is not the same thing as playing, thus I would not consider visual novels things that you play, despite being games.
In case you hadn't guessed, I myself read visual novels. Ones I've read are Fate/Stay Night, half of Steins;Gate, Don't Take It Personally Babe It Just Ain't Your Story, Muv Luv Extra, currently reading the newly released Cinders.
I've only read Katawa Shoujo, and though I usually use the term 'play' when describing it to others, I would call it more of a 'visual pick-your-own adventure book.'
I guess Katawa Shoujo is a book that is played...if that makes sense.
I guess Katawa Shoujo is a book that is played...if that makes sense.
Both. I mean, it would be stupid to say that visual novels don't involve reading, but I would say that they are played as well. There are visual novels out there without choices though, I think.
Anyway, they're generally much less interactive than many games, but it's impossible to draw an arbitrary line that represents the amount of interactivity that constitutes "playing". If it's interactive at all you can claim you're playing it, otherwise you end up with stupid definitions.
Also, the timing of this thread is strange. I literally just starting playing a visual novel again for the first time in about 6 months.
Anyway, they're generally much less interactive than many games, but it's impossible to draw an arbitrary line that represents the amount of interactivity that constitutes "playing". If it's interactive at all you can claim you're playing it, otherwise you end up with stupid definitions.
Also, the timing of this thread is strange. I literally just starting playing a visual novel again for the first time in about 6 months.
It's hard. They are something you read, yet at certain points in many VNs, you are expected to make choices about how the story will progress. For Fate/Stay Night bad choices can cause a DEAD END meaning you have to pick up from before you made the choice. They are closest to a choose your own adventure in the way they work. VNs exist in a grey area between games and books. Maybe visual novels should be... playread?
I'm also relatively new to visual novels. Is this rise in popularity attributable to Katawa Shoujo? Of course, I read one or two before that, but I think it really convinced me there were VNs worth looking into. Currently going through Fate/Stay Night, which must be the fifth or sixth VN I've tried this year... something I've noticed, I always continue visual novels through to the end. Can hardly say that with most games or books.
I'm also relatively new to visual novels. Is this rise in popularity attributable to Katawa Shoujo? Of course, I read one or two before that, but I think it really convinced me there were VNs worth looking into. Currently going through Fate/Stay Night, which must be the fifth or sixth VN I've tried this year... something I've noticed, I always continue visual novels through to the end. Can hardly say that with most games or books.
Since there is a lot of variation in such things, it is hard to make a blanket statement. In general, they're read and the player is offered a number of places to make a decision where the story will diverge. This decision making mechanic is not sufficient to qualify as a game unless you'd be willing to argue that a choose your own adventure book is also a game.
Well it depends on the visual novel. Some have mini-games and such which would mean that they certainly are "played" to that extent. However most handle like a high-tech but yet limited gamebook. So I would say they are read. Just because something is interactive does not mean it is played.
I think the name kinda gives that impression as well. It is a Visual Novel which implies a novel delivered with visual aid.
I think the name kinda gives that impression as well. It is a Visual Novel which implies a novel delivered with visual aid.
Really, it depends on the Visual Novel.
Some, like Higurashi No Naku Koro Ni, are read, just with sounds and pictures.
Others, like Katawa Shoujo, Yume Miru Kusuri, and a load of other ones (That you could find out about by reading NeutralDrow's reviews on this site), are played, with choices for you to make that change the outcome of the game.
And there are some others, like Princess Waltz (I think), that also have gameplay elements, be it card battles, puzzles, or dungeon crawlers.
For the majority, I'd say you play them.
Some, like Higurashi No Naku Koro Ni, are read, just with sounds and pictures.
Others, like Katawa Shoujo, Yume Miru Kusuri, and a load of other ones (That you could find out about by reading NeutralDrow's reviews on this site), are played, with choices for you to make that change the outcome of the game.
And there are some others, like Princess Waltz (I think), that also have gameplay elements, be it card battles, puzzles, or dungeon crawlers.
For the majority, I'd say you play them.