Poll: Are We Too Hard On Lucas?

[lucky_sharm]

It's easy to dislike Lucas when he fires anyone that disagrees with his vision or ideas, even when they're totally, totally wrong. Also, he's "retiring" from film rather than, you know, actually taking in criticism and working to improve his film making.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

All he has to do is release the originals.

That's it.

Preferably on Blu Ray, but I'll take VHS.

We're not even asking for him to denounce the prequels or stop fiddling. Just RELEASE THE DAMN ORIGINALS ALREADY.

 

[Richard Keohane]

This is my opinion on George Lucas, and it has never changed. He is a fantastic teambuilder, because deep down he knows he's bad at making movies, and he snaps up anyone who's good at their jobs to try and carry his movie.

What makes Star Wars so good?

1) The sound effects first and foremost. Though you probably don't realize it, everything from the way droids and aliens talk to the way blasters and lightsabers and spaceships sound was all pioneered by Star Wars because they did such a fantastic job at it. This was barely touched by Lucas. He merely hired the team and let them do their work.

2) The costumes, puppets, makeup, special effects, and sets. George wanted fantastical, and he got great people to make that dream come to life. When things couldn't happen the way he wanted, he let his team do whatever they thought was necessary to get the job done. And they delivered brilliantly.

3) The acting. While Star Wars marked the beginning and end of many of its actor's careers, there was little to no "bad acting" in the original trilogy. Bad swordsmanship, yes, but even the swordfights had meaning inlaid into them. He hired the actors and they did a great job.

4) The script. The plot of Star Wars has always been a callback of the old "space operas" which were considered sci-fi trash... similarly to how Indiana Jones represents the pulp novels and comics of explorers having improbably adventures. The script was written by George Lucas, however, it was well edited and managed to deliver. The script that made Empire Strikes Back so good wasn't even written by Lucas.

Lucas managed to get amazing people to come together and do a great job together, because he was afraid his movies would be bad if he didn't. When he lost that fear and made the prequels, he didn't let his team do their jobs. He micromanaged and it killed the series.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Let me put it this way: I don't wish death on the man, but I'm in the camp that is just biding their time until he kicks the bucket, and hoping his heirs have a bit more sense about the movies than he does. We're never going to get a good transfer of the original original trilogy as long as the man lives. It's not because the original negatives have been destroyed; you don't really need those to get a good transfer when there's still three strip technicolor prints extant -- those things, along with vinyl records, are one of those formats that pretty much never decay as long as they're properly stored. What we're seeing here, sadly, is a man with a bruised ego who is too proud to admit he made a mistake. Until he either admits his mistake[footnote]meaning he gives the original cuts the respect they deserve; a transfer of a master made for laserdisc that looks worse than the fan transfers of the actual laserdiscs does /not/ count.[/footnote] or dies, I'm unlikely to ever buy a new transfer of the old films. And that makes me sad; lord knows the man has made a small fortune off of me alone over the years, and there would be plenty of money left if he would just give the fans (including me) what they want.

The infamous edit that puts Hayden Christensen at the end of RoTJ was released on a special edition DVD that included the original theatrical version of the film. I bought them just a couple years back, so I can't imagine that they'd be impossible to find.

Actually, it wasn't. That was a re-release in 2006, after I had already got my 2004 edition. I and everyone else who bought those DVDs would have had to triple or quadruple dip to get the original cuts, and they were included as a bonus disc with an edition we already had. Besides, you must have missed or not understood my footnote. The DVD with the original cut was not a new transfer. It was the transfer from the 1993 laserdiscs, loaded up with so much DNR that it actually looks much uglier than the laserdiscs themselves, and not even in an anamorphic format. That wasn't Lucas giving us what we wanted; it was more like "here, you want my sandwich? Well let me lick it, then you can have it."

Pardon my techno-ignorance, but what is DNR. I Googled it and all I found was Department of Natural Resources and Do Not Resusitate. I'm confident that neither of those are what you're talking about.

As to what I bought, yeah, it was likely the 2006 versions as I bought them in late 2008. I can't comment on the quality of the "original theatrical cut" that was included as I haven't yet watched it on those discs. All I know is that that the back of the box promised the post-Episode III re-cut as well as the "original theatrical version" in one box.

Oh, sorry about that. DNR stands for "Digital Noise Reduction." It's supposed to help cut down on noticeable film grain, but it does it by smearing out all of the fine details in the image (which is what the film grain technically is -- grain in film is roughly equivalent to pixels in video.) You wind up with people that look like they're made out of plastic, and everything else just having this smeared, low detail look to it. Anyway, it was advertised as the original cut, and it's about as close as anything that has been released, but the problem is that rather than giving it a new transfer and some actual care, they just used the master they made for the 1993 laserdisc release, and then did some stuff to it that actually makes it look worse than it did on the laserdiscs. That's why people didn't stop complaining after that release; it was Lucas going "Here. You want this, fine, but I'm not going to put any effort into making a decent presentation possible."

Slightly off topic, but in case anyone still thinks a new film transfer is impossible, there are several three strip techicolor prints in private collections. Those are /the/ archival film standard, they almost never deteriorate (like, as long as they're properly stored, they'll outlive everyone reading this thread, even though they have over thirty years of a head start on it), and the image quality is only slightly degraded from the original negatives. In fact, there were several scenes in Episode IV that Lucas had to get from his personal technicolor print, because they had degraded beyond repair on the negative. If that was a good enough source for a theatrical release, a similar print should be plenty good enough for a bluray transfer.

 

[remnant_phoenix]

Slightly off topic of this, but in case anyone still thinks a new film transfer is impossible, there are several three strip techicolor prints in private collections. Those are /the/ archival film standard, they almost never deteriorate (like, as long as they're properly stored, they'll outlive everyone reading this thread, even though they have over thirty years of a head start on it), and the image quality is only slightly degraded from the original negatives. In fact, there were several scenes in Episode IV that Lucas had to get from his personal technicolor print, because they had degraded beyond repair on the negative. If that was a good enough source for a theatrical release, a similar print should be plenty good enough for a bluray transfer.

So...in a nutshell, the only reason we haven't gotten a high-quality release of the original versions on DVD/Blu-Ray is because Lucas doesn't FEEL like it?

EDIT: Further consideration:

1) You could argue that he doesn't think it's worth his money to transfer the original technicolor prints in their entirety to a DVD/Blu-Ray release. Considering that most of the fanbase wants to fully appreciate the originals as they were and would pay good money to do so, so this doesn't make sense.

2) It's possible that he doesn't think it's worth the time and effort to do so, which doesn't make sense unless he simply DOESN'T LIKE the original versions. This is likely considering he's justified his re-edits along the lines of "this is way I want it," and not at all caring about how the legions of fans that made STAR WARS a commercial and pop-culture powerhouse would want it.

Yeah, all I can come back to is "he just doesn't feel like it." /END EDIT

...

Returning to the OP's question, no. No I do not think we are too hard on Lucas.

EDIT: I just realized something: the existence of the prequels and Lucas re-editing the originals to turn out a version that I would consider inferior doesn't really bother me; it's the idea of not being able to access a quality copy of the original releases that DOES bother me, and I now see why so many STAR WARS fans have been so upset for so long.

 

[rekabdarb]

Yeah fans reaction went a little overboard. So much overboard that they got a movie with kurt russell in it.

=D

Anyways i don't feel bad for him, he did just butcher his own continuity, but we are attacking him for making MORE of something we LOVE.

It'd be like if WoW stop making bad expansions, everyone would be sad but we'd still love it?

Not sure if my allegory works here.

 

[C2Ultima]

Ok, let's put it this way. Valve made Portal and Portal 2. Let's also pretend that they made a third Portal, which was pretty good. Ok right? A series of great games.

Now let's say that 20 years later, they start making a prequel trilogy to the Portal games, that reveal the orgins of GLaDOS, chell, and the companion cube. In this series of games, the companion cube can talk (I know it can in the Portal 2 comic), It turns out that Carolyn was Chell's mother, and we learn that the Portal gun is powered by crystals made from bat shit.

At this point, Valve also starts re-releasing the first three Portal games, making the companion cube talk in the original Portal, making it refrence bats everytime you fire the portal gun near it, and changing GLaDOS' voice to have Lindsey Lohan voice it (since she did in the prequel games).


The point of that horrifying scenario is to say that when you make something good, and release it, it's gone. You don't keep trying to "improve" it, even if you think that you could do it better.

 

[DanielBrown]

Reasonable complaints in my opinion.
I'm not a Star Wars fan, but I can relate to how annoyed die hard fans must be when he's constantly producing/adding shit to the franchise they love.

 

[Atmos Duality]

No. He knew perfectly well what he was doing when he made the Prequels, and he walked away from it with billions in his pocket (at our expense, no less), so I doubt he really gives a damn at this point.

If you go public with a work, expect criticism.
(Rational criticism; not insane things like love-stalking or death threats, depending on the opinion)

 

[Doneeee]

While I fell that episodes 1 & 2 weren't too great(3 was decent in my opinion) I do think that we are pretty tough on the poor dude. While some people feel he raped their childhood, I think are entertaining for what they are (prequel and re-releases alike). Though the scripts could have been handled much better in the prequels.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

I'm always amazed how many people appear in these threads raging so hard about we should leave it alone.

By your own logic, why haven't you gone somewhere else already?

 

[Yopaz]

The hate he's getting is something equivalent to what terrorists feel. He gets treated like he's physically assaulted his fans rather than just doing some poor work. He hasn't done anything evil to us. He has given us mediocrity, but not forced us to watch it. I don't feel bad for him, but he doesn't deserve all of what he's getting.

 

[soren7550]

(don't know if someone else said this since I've only skimmed the replies)

Lucas years ago (sometime around when the original Star Wars films were released), he went to Congress I believe, and tried to make it so that it would be illegal to alter and edit films once the final product was released,saying that in the not too distant future, people would be able to add in people/things that weren't in the original, alter people's appearances, make their lips move and add in things they didn't say, stuff like that. And what do you know, Lucas did that himself twenty or so years later.

More on topic, he deserves all the hate and then some. Besides being a hypocrite (see above), and whenever he's in charge of writing and whatnot (see the Star Wars prequels, and Crystal Skull), the films turn out largely bad. Let's not forget the fact that he whores the shit out of Star Wars, as well as just screws with the story so much (Apprentices can't have their own padawans, but Anakin gets his own in the Clone Wars CGI series, which takes place in-between a scene in the Clone Wars animated series, which it itself takes place in-between the second and third film. There's a three year gap between SW2 & 3, and the scene in the animated series that happens after the events of the CGI series takes place not too long before the start of SW3, and AGGGGHHHHH!)

 

[launchpadmcqwak]

you should have seen my face when i saw the dvd versions for the first time, when the holographic emperor in VI appeared and they changed not only the actor, but they changed the dialogue as well man, that was totally unnecessary. Oh and when fucking hayden christianson appeared at the end i lost all respect for lucas. I MEAN THE ORIGINAL MIDDLE AGED ANIKIN MADE SENSE WHY WOULD HE BE IN HIS FUKING TWENTIES????

 

[Crazy]

Its what everyone thinks that matters no longer. The deal has been made, no rewind. What you thought, or think, shouldn't be changed because now he's acting on the opinions. Remember, everyone lashing out to his works are the reason.

 

[Redd the Sock]

As a Star wars fan, I've been saying the same thing for years. Who'd have though a split second alteration with Greedo would cause such outrage from butthurt fanboys that somehow felt that made the entire 2 and a half hour movie worthless garbage? I'd have called it quits then if I were him for the same reason: any fanbase that particular about that minor an alteration is not worth the effort to try and please. Granted not all changes were smart (or good) but there seems to be a focus on ones that piss people off. I don't hear anyone complaining that splicing in the deleted scene with Biggs before the trench run, or flashing to other planets at the end of RotJ ruined anything. Now doing it a second time after seeing how well it went over, that was a pretty braindead move.

Now the prequels, those are a harder matter. They're flawed movies to be sure, but a lot of whining stems less from the same fanboy rage. OMG an annoying sidekick character (never seen those before). Oh no, a sixty second bit "demystifying" the force (admmittedly, I read the expanded universe books that aluded to other force schools not as limited as the jedi's so kind of ignored that). This isn't the Anikin I envisioned for 20 years (why prequals seldom go over well). I know Anikin turns bad and see the signs, why is no one in the movie without my knowledge of the future so perceptive? (why tragic prequels almost never go over well) Too much CGI (ooo Avatar looks so shiney). Far fewer complaints about pacing, acting, script, the second movie being an ad for Clone War books, comics, and cartoons.

Either way, they still aren't the worst thing to happen to star wars. I'll gladly take the prequels over reading the Crystal Star again.

 

[Vykrel]

slightly harsh, but the criticisms are completely warranted. as if it werent enough for him to make the prequel trilogy so disappointing, he thought it was a good idea to go back to the original trilogy and change a bunch of shit that didnt need changing.

he needs to just hand over the reins

 

[prowll]

I reserve my contempt for the whiny fanboys who have made sure that we will never again see the majesty of the first series, or be able to share new stories with our children.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Maybe. My theory is that George Lucas has become too self-deluded by his own success. I figure that when he was writing/directing the prequels, I think, he shut out any and all input from outside sources. He likely didn't get anyone to edit the script, didn't get anyone's advice or suggestions while directing and/or editing the films. It had to be all his was all the time. As a result he denied himself a lot of valuable information. As a fairly creative person myself, I know that when creating something there are several things one needs to be aware of: 1) That how you perceive your creation is not necessarily how your audience will perceive it. 2) You are often blind to the flaws of your own creation.
If he had allowed others to add input while making the prequels he might have realized that some of what he was doing was not the best idea and would've had the chance to fix it before the final product went out. Instead what we got is glimpses of brilliance buried under overdone CGI and B-movie-esque dialogue.

And as for the Special Editions, well apparently he's not familiar with the quote "An artist knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
I can't remember who said that.
EDIT:

I reserve my contempt for the whiny fanboys who have made sure that we will never again see the majesty of the first series, or be able to share new stories with our children.

Second. Between the two, I think the fanboys/girls have made much bigger asses of themselves.

 

[OneCatch]

So, with the announcement of his retirement from major productions, seemingly because of the widespread nerdrage his recent efforts have earned him, I do wonder. DOES he deserve it?

Mostly yes. I do feel sorry for him, because he obviously can't see what he's doing wrong, but that doesn't make what he's doing GOOD.

I mean, no denying the prequel trilogy was worse than the originals. But apart from a few notable exceptions, how many good prequels can you think of? Or sequels for that matter. He at least managed two of those against all expectations.

Yes, he likes to edit his movies, but that IS his rite. Plenty of us like to draw, or write, or compose music. How would you feel if something you really didn't think was complete, you couldn't change to your satisfaction without massive hatred from your fanbase?

I think that the issue most people have is that he's destroying the originals by creating the re-releases in the way that he is. If he wants to make remastered versions, as you say, it is his right to do so. But he should release it alongside the originals, as a Directors Cut or something, out of courtesy to the fanbase (or even sheer pragmatism after the 1997 re-release fiasco).
I would love to have been able to buy a "Complete Star Wars Collection" which contained the original theatrical releases, the 1997 re-release, the 2004 DVD remaster AND the Blu Ray remaster. He could have chucked on more documentaries about the remastering process, charged an extra £30 and people would still have bought it!

The other side of the coin, yes he MADE those movies, but we're the ones who adopted them into the public psyche. Without Us (captialised to refer to Them, They, Us, We, The People, etc), there would be no Star Wars as we know it today. We turned an obscure, ridiculous Sci-Fi concept into a Pop Culture Juggernaut. It's his dream, but it's our childhood. And he keeps monkeying around with our memories.

Exactly. It's all very well making remasters, but he shouldn't be trying to actively stop people from seeing the originals as per the quote:

Spoiler

"The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won't last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version [of the Special Edition], and you'll be able to project it on a 20' by 40' screen with perfect quality. I think it's the director's prerogative, not the studio's to go back and reinvent a movie." - Lucas on the Re-releases

Okay, both sides of the coin there. Personally, I think we're giving him a bit too rough a time. I mean, fine, the prequels weren't all that good and the constant edits are getting annoying. But the black hatred I see for the man sometimes online ought to be reserved for child molesters and people who talk at the theatre. It's just another knee-jerk reaction of the internet (" movie/franchise/reboot sucked!").

Nice Firefly reference
I essentially agree. I don't hate the guy, but I still think he's made some pretty stupid errors of judgement which is causing.... friction. Ah well, I've got a fan edit on the way, taking bits from all of the releases to make MY personal favourite version (needless to say, Han shoots first) so I guess it doesn't affect me that much anyway.