Poll: Atheist Morality

[Zacharine]

There is a nice and simple argument about morality and god.

Is something moral because (1)god says so,(2) because it is inherently good and moral or (3)because we decide it is good and moral?

1. If it is moral because god says so, then what we have is the subjective morality of God.

Why would he be the one to decide what is moral and what is not? Why would his opinion matter more than mine? Simply because he created us or is the strongest being in the universe gives him no inherent right to do this. In effect, he would be the ultimate dictator. He decides what is good and what is not, and also punishes/rewards us if we don't/do follow his rules.

This is dictatorship and bullying taken to it's most extreme form. And if this would be the case, why should we care, from a purely moral standpoint, of his opinion in subjective matters of deciding what is good and evil?

2. Something is moral because it is inherently moral and good.

Well, then God is not the source of morality now is he? Even he would be subject to this objective moral code. Hence, no god is needed to follow or understand this morality.

3. Well, if this is the case then we already agree that no god was needed.

End result: Either god is not needed for morality or he is, from moral point of view, no more important than you or me in deciding what the subjective morality should be.

 

[Skeleon]

*snip*

Well, actually, I had meant Aristotle, Socrates, and Plato as I had posted in my very first post replying to you.

*snip*

You do realize that much of our current moral system (especially the Human Rights) has its basis in ancient Greek morality based on rationality and logic (attributed to people such as Socrates, Plato and Aristotle)?

I had also already posted that I was aware of the flaws of ancient Greek society, such as slavery.

But if we look at the rights and laws refering to the free Greek citizens, we find many of the values we are looking at today. The problem was simply, that the ancient Greeks only applied those values to the rather small, special group of "free Greek citizens" (males of 18 years or older) instead of all human beings.
Even the above mentioned philosophers were guilty of this, by the way.

 

[Shynobee]

*snip*

Well, actually, I had meant Aristotle, Socrates, and Plato as I had posted in my very first post replying to you.

*snip*

You do realize that much of our current moral system (especially the Human Rights) has its basis in ancient Greek morality based on rationality and logic (attributed to people such as Socrates, Plato and Aristotle)?

I had also already posted that I was aware of the flaws of ancient Greek society, such as slavery.

But if we look at the rights and laws refering to the free Greek citizens, we find many of the values we are looking at today. The problem was simply, that the ancient Greeks only applied those values to the rather small, special group of "free Greek citizens" (males of 18 years or older) instead of all human beings.
Even the above mentioned philosophers were guilty of this, by the way.

I have to say, you are persistant. My point is that these ancient Greek rights and laws you keep refering to aren't morals, they are legal codes. The question in this thread is can MORALS survive with out God, not laws.

Yes the Greeks had a wonderful legal system, and I know you are aware of the flaws of Greek society, but you're dodging the issue here. And that is, Western Morality is not based on ancient Greece, it is based on Christian roots.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Interesting how people are saying "of course" when none of us have come from a position where we weren't taught about religion and morals by someone.

If Religion is right, without God, we'd not even exist, so it's kind of a moot point.

 

[bodyklok]

Is something moral because god says so or because it is inherently good and moral?

Ahh! Are you referring to the famous quote by Plato about what is holy?

"Is that which is holy loved by the gods because it is holy, or is it holy because it is loved by the gods?"​

Either way that's exactly what I wanted to say, but I couldn't put the words together by myself.

 

[Rachmaninov]

The idea that morality was invented with religion is disproved by the Bible, of all things.

Before the rules are set down, humanity is not a load of murderous, sadistic, cannibal savages, so there were obviously laws (unspoken or otherwise), even by the Bible's account.

I find the idea that religion being the reason I'm sickened by the idea of torturing/killing/eating another human being ludicrous.

The commandments say nothing about violently raping a single woman, so does that make it okay? Of course not! Rape is against common morals. Morality has nothing to do with religion. Morals change whereas religion stays the same.

 

[Skeleon]

I have to say, you are persistant. My point is that these ancient Greek rights and laws you keep refering to aren't morals, they are legal codes. The question in this thread is can MORALS survive with out God, not laws.

Yes the Greeks had a wonderful legal system, and I know you are aware of the flaws of Greek society, but you're dodging the issue here. And that is, Western Morality is not based on ancient Greece, it is based on Christian roots.

Ah, but these laws are in turn based on the Greek moral ideals of freedom and rationality, so why shouldn't I take them as an example for their moral basis?
Unless of course you don't consider the Human Rights morals as such but as laws only. I guess I never really made that distinction since I see the Human Rights as moral laws as well as laws in the more direct sense.

Basically, all I'm saying is that a) the ancient Greeks had created, although limited to a small group, a moral baseline and b) this moral baseline resurfaced when the hold of Christianity loosened.
Sorry for repeating myself, but considering the revival of ancient ideals such as rationality during the Age of Enlightenment, it stands to reason that it was exactly these ancient basics of morality that formed our, nowadays more than ever, secular moral system.

I guess the real issue is that, basically, I keep saying "it's based on the ancient Greeks" and you keep saying "it's based on Christianity". Seems like we're going nowhere, though.

As for that one question:

The question in this thread is can MORALS survive with out God, not laws.

Completely independent of the rest of our discussion, this obviously must be answered with a yes since morality itself has been around much longer than either mono-, poly- or even atheistic religions.

 

[WayOutThere]

god hates blacks and gays

Go away you trolling bastard.

 

[Shynobee]

I have to say, you are persistant. My point is that these ancient Greek rights and laws you keep refering to aren't morals, they are legal codes. The question in this thread is can MORALS survive with out God, not laws.

Yes the Greeks had a wonderful legal system, and I know you are aware of the flaws of Greek society, but you're dodging the issue here. And that is, Western Morality is not based on ancient Greece, it is based on Christian roots.

Ah, but these laws are in turn based on the Greek moral ideals of freedom and rationality, so why shouldn't I take them as an example for their moral basis?
Unless of course you don't consider the Human Rights morals as such but as laws only. I guess I never really made that distinction since I see the Human Rights as moral laws as well as laws in the more direct sense.

Basically, all I'm saying is that a) the ancient Greeks had created, although limited to a small group, a moral baseline and b) this moral baseline resurfaced when the hold of Christianity loosened.
Sorry for repeating myself, but considering the revival of ancient ideals such as rationality during the Age of Enlightenment, it stands to reason that it was exactly these ancient basics of morality that formed our, nowadays more than ever, secular moral system.

I guess the real issue is that, basically, I keep saying "it's based on the ancient Greeks" and you keep saying "it's based on Christianity". Seems like we're going nowhere, though.

As for that one question:

The question in this thread is can MORALS survive with out God, not laws.

Completely independent of the rest of our discussion, this obviously must be answered with a yes since morality itself has been around much longer than either mono-, poly- or even atheistic religions.

Gahhh!

I was soo ready to let this one go until you said "atheistic religions!!!" it was probably just a slip of the tongue on your part, but I have to correct you, there is no such thing as an atheistic religion.

The words latin roots are as follows, "A" = the absence of, and "theism" = religion, thus the word means, "The absence of religion."

And, since I'm already here, there is also no such thing as a "secular moral system." If you are considering Europe's current status as the most secular place on earth, and thus it's current western moral system, you are wrong. The moral system currently found in the western world has no secular roots, it is Christian as I have stated, or, as you have cleverly pointed out, possibly Greek as well.

And, now that I'm already off topic, I might as well go on to say that the idea of secularism is Christian as well. Mathew 22:21, "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar?s, and unto God the things that are God?s." That is the founding idea of secularism, and its found in the Bible.

 

[dekkarax]

I'm an apathiest, I find the existence of a God irrelevant. You don't need a god to justify your morals.

I was soo ready to let this one go until you said "atheistic religions!!!" it was probably just a slip of the tongue on your part, but I have to correct you, there is no such thing as an atheistic religion.
.

I would say that Atheism is a faith, however.

 

[Skeleon]

The words latin roots are as follows, "A" = the absence of, and "theism" = religion, thus the word means, "The absence of religion."

Sorry, but you're wrong on that.
Atheism means "absence of belief in gods". Buddhism is by many considered an atheistic religion. As well as some pantheistic religions. Ancestor- and spirit-cults. Religions based on fate/destiny. There are/were several religions/cults/beliefs without gods.

As for your second point: Yeah, that's what I meant with we're going nowhere. I could simply repeat stating that I think the root is in ancient Greece and then the circle would repeat once more.

Third point: Well, secular just means "worldly". As long as there have been religions (the very dawn of mankind), there has always been a secular view as well.

 

[DeathsAmbassador]

Morality and religion are two completely different things in my mind. Just because someone doesn't believe in god doesn't mean that they don't have a problem killing people.

 

[Shynobee]

I'm an apathiest, I find the existence of a God irrelevant. You don't need a god to justify your morals.

I was soo ready to let this one go until you said "atheistic religions!!!" it was probably just a slip of the tongue on your part, but I have to correct you, there is no such thing as an atheistic religion.
.

I would say that Atheism is a faith, however.

Firstly, I've always found apatheism a difficult thing to grasp. Especially because religion involves some of the most important aspects of your life, ie, what happens to you after you die. But then again, its your life, not mine, so believe what you will.

As for atheism being a faith, that just cannot be true, atheism by definition is a lack of religion, thus it cannot be one.

 

[Shynobee]

The words latin roots are as follows, "A" = the absence of, and "theism" = religion, thus the word means, "The absence of religion."

Sorry, but you're wrong on that.
Atheism means "absence of belief in gods". Buddhism is by many considered an atheistic religion. As well as some pantheistic religions. Ancestor- and spirit-cults. Religions based on fate/destiny. There are/were several religions/cults/beliefs without gods.

As for your second point: Yeah, that's what I meant with we're going nowhere. I could simply repeat stating that I think the root is in ancient Greece and then the circle would repeat once more.

Third point: Well, secular just means "worldly". As long as there have been religions (the very dawn of mankind), there has always been a secular view as well.

No I am not. You are taking the word of "theism," that is, a belief in some sort of god, but not any one in particular, and applying that to atheism. But that is incorrect. I'm not quite sure how I can prove this to you, but you'll just have to take my word I guess, that Atheism is a lack of religion.

As for what you said about secularism, you are also incorrect. Secular doesn't just mean "worldly," it means, "worldly rather than spiritual."

 

[effilctar]

I am atheist and I must say yes and no. Primitive laws like do not kill and such were initially started because of the Ten commandments so a lot of laws we have today WERE influenced by religion but we've gotten to a state where we can feel a sense of morality without the need for God

 

[Skeleon]

*snip*

1.) "Atheism can be either the rejection of theism,[1] or the position that deities do not exist.[2] In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities.[3]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

2.) I thought it was clear that I refered to the distinction from spiritualism as well since it was in the same paragraph as my sentence about religions. I said that where there were religions, there also was a secular view. Sorry for just implying it.

 

[Deacon Cole]

I would say that Atheism is a faith, however.

That statement assumes there is any credibility to the concept of god.

Back to the OP, many theist tend to cherry pick from their own holy book what inerrant words of god to follow and which to ignore. Few have their children stoned to death for talking back or their daughters stoned for being raped. So even if they claim to use the bible or whatever as the basis for their morality, they don't. They already have their own sense of morality which they follow and just pick bible passage out to confirm their own morals and their faith since they "found" it in their holy book. Anyone who actually takes all of their morality from the bible lacks a moral compass.