Poll: Auto industry bailout: Should congress do it?

[crimson5pheonix]

QUESTION

Can you fix a leaking bucket by pouring more water into it?

If your answer is no, then no bailout.
If your answer is yes, then you should be riding the special bus, and NO BAILOUT!

If the water is mixed with a glue or plaster it might.

No, no it wouldn't.

Obviously water is money and the hole in the bucket is the problem. If you fix the problem first, then refill the bucket, it would work. But while adding glue to the water may slow some of the drip, you've tainted the water and still failed to stop the leak, instead just making more of a mess.

And obviously I made a joke about being oblivious to the fact you were using a metaphor.

 

[SilentHunter7]

They should divert $40 billion from the $750B bailout that they're giving to the banks who are squandering it, and give it to the auto industry.

Hey, at least they can make something tangible. The people they're giving 750 billion to make...securities backed by the potential worth of future loans. How does that help the American people? The best part is that the banks gave no guarantee that it will work, and they EVEN SAID THAT THEY WOULD NEED MORE IN THE FUTURE. And we still gave them the money. At least the auto industry is saying that they can get out of the hole with $40B kick in the pants.

I was against giving the banks a bailout because they created this mess, and I knew letting them get their hands on more money wouldn't help. After listening to the Auto CEO's testimonies, I say give them the bank's money. The banks had their chance, and squandered it. Lets give the Big 3 what's left of the money we tried to help them out with.

QUESTION

Can you fix a leaking bucket by pouring more water into it?

If your answer is no, then no bailout.
If your answer is yes, then you should be riding the special bus, and NO BAILOUT!

I dont see this as a leaking bucket. I see it more as I see it a person bleeding to death. And the bleeding is caused by an appendage that can't figure out that giving blood to cells who declared bankruptcy 3 times is a bad idea. And that appendage is for whatever reason, being saved by doctors instead of amputated, even as the rest of the body loses its jobs, houses, and vehicles.

Anyway, no you can't stop the bleeding by infusing the guy with more blood, but you can keep him alive long enough to fix the problem.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

And obviously I made a joke about being oblivious to the fact you were using a metaphor.

That's not a joke... A joke goes something like:
How do you make a dead baby float? - Take your foot off of it's head.

Or if it's too early in the morning for dead baby jokes:

A young man wished to purchase a gift for his new sweetheart's birthday, and as they had not been dating very long, after careful consideration he decided a pair of gloves would strike the right note -- romantic, but not too personal.
Accompanied by his sweetheart's younger sister, he bought a pair of white gloves; the younger sister purchased a pair of panties for herself.

During the wrapping, the clerk mixed up the items and the sister got the gloves and the sweetheart got the panties. Without checking the contents first, he sealed his package and mailed it to his sweetheart along with this note:

Darling,

I chose these because I noticed that you are not in the habit of wearing any when we go out in the evening. If it had not been for your sister, I would have chosen the long ones with buttons, but she wears short ones that are easy to remove.

These are a delicate shade, but the lady I bought them from showed me the pair she had been wearing for the past three weeks and they were hardly soiled. I had her try yours on for me and she looked really smart.

I wish I were there to put them on you for the first time, as no doubt other hands will come in contact with them before I have a chance to see you again.

When you take them off, remember to blow in them before putting them away as they will naturally be a little damp from wearing.

Just think how many times I will kiss them during the coming year. I hope you will wear them for me on Friday night.

All my Love,
Hollingsworth

P.S The latest style is to wear them folded down with a little fur showing.

Well my talking was not to be taken seriously. That's my point.

 

[beddo]

It goes against the idea of a free market. Irresponsible and inefficient companies should be allowed to fall under their own ineptitude.

These companies are hugely wasteful and showed it to everyone by flying their CEOs in individual private jets to Washington. If they want to stay afloat they need to keep up with the Market. The need to cut costs:

Only manufacture and sell the most profitable cars.

Streamline operations.

Stop unnecessary R&D.

Sell the jets.

Cut 6-7 figure executive salaries.

Negotiate factory and land rental costs.

Reign in spending.

Acquire money owed to them.

Cut the workforce.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Well my talking was not to be taken seriously. That's my point.

And, with the exception of my rants, I am never to be taken seriously or personally. I should however be taken sparingly and for the right woman, I can be taken orally.

Well said. But I still stand behind that if we could pick one car company to kill and pretend never existed it would be Dodge/Chrysler.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Well said. But I still stand behind that if we could pick one car company to kill and pretend never existed it would be Dodge/Chrysler.

No way! Ford.

What has ford given us? The Pinto.
Chrysler at least gave us the Stealth and Viper.

Though Hyundai is high up on my off-list, cheap assed rust buckets.

Well, Ford is at least trying to do something at this point. It may not be much, but they are trying to change. Like I said, Dodge/Chrysler is still pumping out 300s and touting their trucks like people are still interested. Their best cars get 30MPG highway and that's what they are aiming at Honda and Toyota.

 

[beddo]

Why the fuck not? We're already waste deep in recession, we can't put an entire city out of work (Detroit or wherever the fuck it is), and should we not bail them out we'd probably hit recessions status that makes the Depression look like a party. Not to mention when those guys go out of work, they'll have to practically leave state to find jobs.
And as Crimson said, many of them have been doing good work, unlike Dodge. Dodge purposely broke it's toy and is now demanding a new one.

They shouldn't be bailed out because of the recession. Most people are not going to buy new cars in a recession. The money would be better off going to consumers to buy the cars with than the manufactures to waste it in further operating costs.

Even better the money could go to the workers when they lose their jobs rather than into the pockets of execs and shareholders.

 

[dalek sec]

Just no, they had time to fix such glaring problems and all they did was dick around.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Well, Ford is at least trying to do something at this point. It may not be much, but they are trying to change. Like I said, Dodge/Chrysler is still pumping out 300s and touting their trucks like people are still interested. Their best cars get 30MPG highway and that's what they are aiming at Honda and Toyota.

Yeah there's that.
But GM is one who needs to be crucified for their idiocy.

I read yesterday that GM is going to cull their product line as follows;
GMC, Chevy, Buick, and Cadillac are being kept, Pontiac in limited production but mostly shelved, and Hummer terminated, possibly selling the Hummer brand to another company. Saturn and one other line (forget which) are to be shut down/canceled.

Now what gets me about this... Yes, Hummer needs to go. But GMC and Chevy basically make the same products just with different front grills and paint options. I'd shelf the GMC line because it's all trucks, vans, and SUVs. At least the Chevy line also included some sedans and compacts. And why Cadillac and Buick? The US is facing a recession, and the only people who drive Buicks, old farts, are the one group of people who should NEVER have such large vehicles. Cut out Cadillac and Buick, and put Pontiac into full production. The future of the auto industry is in compact and mid-size sedans. The best thing GM ever made this last couple years was the Vibe, because Toyota provided the power train and the basic body shell.

For those who don't know, the Vibe is a Toyota Matrix with a Pontiac grill. There's minor visual differences in some of the body accents (lights, grill, rims) and interior decoration, but for the parts that matter, you're getting a Japanese car (Mexican made) at domestic car prices/financing. The resale will be less because of the Pontiac name, but for functionality, it's a good move.

Yeah, but read up on Chevy, right now they're producing a car that's getting 37 MPG highway which is better than both Honda and Toyota non-hybrids. They're also trying to make a gas/electric hybrid that will go for 40 miles on an electric charge and no gas (the Volt). Considering, statistically, most people drive only 40 miles a day, they won't use much gas. And if they need to go farther, it has gas. So really, they should shelve most of their companies (like Cadillac and Hummer) And just focus on Chevy and I guess Pontiac. But Dodge/Chrysler needs to die. They have nothing at all.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

The Volt is not our savior, nor are hybrids. Actually just posted a new thread on that particular subject.

I know, but like I said, at least they're trying for fuel efficiency for PR. And like I said on your topic, I don't care about being green, I care about saving money. You know how much money I would save by not paying for gas except every month or two?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

But how can you be saving money when hybrid models are 25-30% more expensive to purchase than non-hybrids? And the Volt, I know people like the idea of not paying for gas, but they seem to forget that as with any new technology, the repair costs are astronomical.

How many places will service an electric car? Do you think it will be cheap? And insurance will be higher, you don't know if there are operating costs to such vehicles that aren't advertised. What about the batteries? How long are they good for (lifespan, not charge), and how much to replace them? The first generation Hybrids will be due for their battery replacements in the next couple years, from what I've heard, it's almost cheaper to replace the car than the banks.

A Suzuki Swift I once looked at buying was going to cost me $11k. Very low gas consumption, dead-simple to maintain, that car is what more people should be driving, and you don't need to bail out Ford to get one.

I don't think that 25% greater is necessarily true, but I'll support it for sake of argument. If they charge extra for repairing an electric motors (older than gas engines) and a gasoline motor that's being used as an electric generator (ubiquitous to the extreme), then they're trying to scam you and that's what they do and have always done. As far as the batteries go, I can't deny that. But if we say "Oh they're expensive, let's not get one" how are we going to improve the technology and make it cheaper? and i don't think the batteries will cost as much as a car, that's an exaggeration. It'll be expensive, but it's not going to be 20K.

 

[Hevoo]

Let me put this simply, if they fail, we are in a depression. 2.5 million people get laid off, with in a matter of a few weeks.

Then all your parents, will get laid off, and you will be in the poor house, no internet, no fun.

Also do you think the debt matters, in the year 2012 people whoever make over 500,000 will be able to pay into a Roth Fund which will give about 8.2 Trillion in Tax income to the govt(people are going to want to do this). So the debt doesnt it matter, and our economic security does.

Also, if we ever go into a large world war again, who do you think will build the tanks, APC, and other weapons of wars. AMERICAN AUTO MAKERS..........