Poll: Autonomy and Philosophy

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Ramthundar

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JC175 said:
If you had the chance to be plugged into a computer that would simulate a world for you, identical to the real world, except it can make you happier than ever possible in reality, would you take it? Or would you prefer to keep your autonomy in sacrifice for the unhappiness and other emotion that comes with normal life? Discuss.
Well, what's the defention of a Happier life? Does that mean it's a perfect world or simply one with less bad? Either way, I would decline. If it's a perfect world, my feelings can be summed up as such:
Sion_Barzahd said:
I like my autonomy, but if i had a world simulated to bring me absolute bliss, i would get severely bored.
And also, if you are in a "perfect world," meaning one with only happiness and no pain or sorrow, how would you be able to tell? After all, we define what makes us "happy" and "sad" by constantly comparing and contrasting the two. It's like that one saying: "You can't have shadows without first having light"

Also, if it's just a happier life, meaning less bad and more good, I'd rather keep it real (no cheesy-line intended). I would feel weird being in some computer just for something I could probably work for on my own. I suppose if I had a different life (such as a starving kid in Africa or a poverty stricken fellow in some third-world country) then I might do it, but for my life here, I'm good.
 

joystickjunki3

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I'd take the normal. As much as I really want some fantastic life where I always fill fulfilled, I think I'd always wonder if there was something more. I realize it's easier to say that than live it, though.
 

Axelgear

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Lack of autonomy would be being a computer oneself; you lose the ability to control yourself, to think freely. If you were able to suddenly lose complete and total control of yourself but gain absolute happiness, would you do this?

I would say no, for happiness is nothing without choice. It's a fundamental part of my faith as well: You have to choose the right action for it to be worth anything; if it was chosen for you or happens by accident, it's meaningless.

As such, no, I would prefer my choices, thank you. We must make our own way to succeed. This doesn't mean we can't get a helping hand, of course, and someone could guide us but we would have to choose to accept said guidance, not have it thrust upon us.
 

Datalord

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If i knew the Maatrix was a simulated world, i couldn't live in it happily, becuase it isn't real, it is a long base 16 string of code controlling my nervous system, unless i was neo of course, then i would basically do whatever i wanted in the matrix
 

JC175

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Cheeze_Pavilion said:
JC175 said:
But you wouldn't say a cat is autonomous, because it cannot think about its actions, it simply acts on genetic influences, if you will.
Ehh, not sure about that. We don't know what a cat's interior life is--they don't have the capacity to tell us about what's going on in there.



So even though you make the full decision to enter this virtual world, you're experiencing all these wonderful things that you want to do, yet you have no reason to consider why they are happening or challenge them - your world is being generated for you, thereby you find yourself in a completely paternal world where your actions are just knee jerk reactions, in a way.
Well, one, that's a particular *type* of matrix. If the matrix allows me to consider what I *think* is happening to me and challenge it, I'm not just experiencing knee jerk reactions. What's the difference between the laws of nature and the laws of a computer program telling me what I can and can't do? Isn't that *greater* autonomy, since I've chosen the computer program based on the laws it imposes on me? I have no such choice when it comes to nature.

Two, you've chosen to put yourself in "a completely paternal world where your actions are just knee jerk reactions" where "you're experiencing all these wonderful things that you want to do, yet you have no reason to consider why they are happening or challenge them - your world is being generated for you."

It's putting conscious decision making on hold, but is it a loss of autonomy, if you've consented to go on autopilot?
Well in the way that "autonomy" was defined to us, it not only means that you are totally independent and take full control over your decisions and their consequences, it also means that you have the power to do something you don't want to do - say maybe for moral reasons, or just menial jobs, work, etc. In that sense, by plugging yourself in you're taking away your ability to follow through with actions that aren't what you desire to do, but may have other important reasons to go through with them.
 

JC175

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Cheeze_Pavilion said:
JC175 said:
Well in the way that "autonomy" was defined to us, it not only means that you are totally independent and take full control over your decisions and their consequences, it also means that you have the power to do something you don't want to do - say maybe for moral reasons, or just menial jobs, work, etc. In that sense, by plugging yourself in you're taking away your ability to follow through with actions that aren't what you desire to do, but may have other important reasons to go through with them.
But all the "moral reasons" and "other important reasons" are gone in the matrix. If that's taking away autonomy, developing robots that could do all menial jobs would also be taking away autonomy.
Yeah, that's right, to an extent anyway. If you've got robots doing everything for you then it's just like having a parental figure or a carer, you're not really autonomous. Of course there's a line there somewhere, you don't say someone's given up their independence because they bought a microwave to cook their food or something, but you get the idea.

I'm getting so sick of typing of "autonomous", heh.
 

matrix3509

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I think I would live in the simulated life, but with one exception. I would like to be the only person in the simulation who knows the whole thing is fake. That way, I could have something all to myself to make me feel even more superior to the idiotic masses. Then I could set myself up as a christ figure. Thats pretty much the only thing that can satisfy my ego at this point.
 

JC175

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Cheeze_Pavilion said:
JC175 said:
Cheeze_Pavilion said:
JC175 said:
Well in the way that "autonomy" was defined to us, it not only means that you are totally independent and take full control over your decisions and their consequences, it also means that you have the power to do something you don't want to do - say maybe for moral reasons, or just menial jobs, work, etc. In that sense, by plugging yourself in you're taking away your ability to follow through with actions that aren't what you desire to do, but may have other important reasons to go through with them.
But all the "moral reasons" and "other important reasons" are gone in the matrix. If that's taking away autonomy, developing robots that could do all menial jobs would also be taking away autonomy.
Yeah, that's right, to an extent anyway. If you've got robots doing everything for you then it's just like having a parental figure or a carer, you're not really autonomous.
Maybe that's not such a great definition of autonomous then, if it leads to conclusions like 'building robots to do your work for you is no different than being parented' ;-)
Build me a robot and I will reconsider this. ;)
 

captainwillies

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JC175 said:
If you had the chance to be plugged into a computer that would simulate a world for you, identical to the real world, except it can make you happier than ever possible in reality, would you take it? Or would you prefer to keep your autonomy in sacrifice for the unhappiness and other emotion that comes with normal life? Discuss.
in this perception we still have not discovered its purpose or its function. it seems its to be here just for it to be here. therefore there are many unknown "easter eggs" awaiting us in this "life". if we create a perfect reality it will only be of what we have seen and formed not of what is unseen and formless therefore eventually our virtual paradise will slowly become a virtual prison with decorations.
 

Fuhjem

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I choose the Matrix, thank you very much!

[HEADING=1]red pill please[/HEADING]
 

Ramthundar

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Cheeze_Pavilion said:
Ramthundar said:
And also, if you are in a "perfect world," meaning one with only happiness and no pain or sorrow, how would you be able to tell? After all, we define what makes us "happy" and "sad" by constantly comparing and contrasting the two. It's like that one saying: "You can't have shadows without first having light"
On the other hand, you can have mountains without having canyons.
That...is a good point. We can still feel the happiness, we just have nothing to compare it to. Then again, if all you lived on was mountains you'd never even reliace, relieze,...know that you could have a canyon to fall in, and you wouldn't understand the luck you have of being on your mountain. Physical characteristics can't be used with human emotion, because the body can be numbed to prevent pain and it's okay, but numbing the brain to prevent pain could mess other stuff up. It's like with pain or fun: at first it seems like a big deal because you still have a memory of something better/worse, but soon they will fade and you get used to the pain and bored and/or crazy because of the fun.
 

matrix3509

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Benj17 said:
Autonomy as said previously allows choices

Having a perfect life handed to you just takes all options away

i mean obviously i wouldnt mind someone coming up to me at the moment and asking if i wanted a job that pays 60k a week but firstly im not a footballer and secondly it will seriously deprive you of knowledge, experience and opportunity. I used to have a teacher that always taught us to grab any opportunity you get because you might never get the chance again.

Being autonomous allows you to under go once in a life time opportunities and if you take them up you will be a happier person in doing so. Having it given to you on a plate means that it will just become routine and almost like a chore, but because of the simulated life, you'll have to enjoy it.

In terms of the matrix, i would mind being told if this life was simulated because at the moment i've lead my life differently from others around me and i believe myself to be autonomous and not a sheep.

If that means i qualify to be the one then im sorted :p
I've found this philosophy as it relates to the matrix pretty interesting ever since the movies came out. Your explaination is essentially right on the money. The way the matrix fundamentally works is that it makes all of your decisions for you, but it does so in a way that makes it feel like an autonomous choice. But if you could go back in time to before you made the choice and reenacted the same choice, you would find that you made the same choice 100% of the time.

Hypothetical here:

Lets say you come up on an intersection in the matrix. The matrix decides which way you will turn (lets say, left) and subsequently, feeds the information to your brain in a way to where you say to yourself, 'I want to go left.' Now lets say you travel back in time to just before you made the "choice" to go left. You will make the "choice" to left 100 percent of the time. Even if somehow you fought the system and forced yourself to turn right, the system has safeguards in place to keep you from making the "wrong" choice, where it will instantly set you back down on the path that it chose for you. Most people will fail to notice the correction, as the sytem will tell them they meant to turn left all along. The few people who do notice however will realize that something is wrong. As they go on with their lives they will increasingly do the opposite of what the system tells them to do, in a hope of breaking free of whatever controls them.

This is why I love the movies so much, so much depth is there when you take the time to look for it.
 

captainwillies

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Aramax said:
JC175 said:
If you had the chance to be plugged into a computer that would simulate a world for you, identical to the real world, except it can make you happier than ever possible in reality, would you take it? Or would you prefer to keep your autonomy in sacrifice for the unhappiness and other emotion that comes with normal life? Discuss.
Why not simply take the best of the two worlds?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computational_neuroscience

Soon you will be able to litteraly become the machine yourself. A world free of disease, without boundaries or limitation where death does not exist.

Our brains are just a biological computers and we are the programs.
there is no container for the soul. once your consciousness is downloaded into a computer you will feel eternally emtpy and eventually become fully computer like, sorta like Dr. Manhattan from watchmen his perception changed so much he couldn't communicate properly with people anymore.

besides metal rust and needs replacing, eventually computers will be made from biomaterials then soon after we will fashion bodies not unlike our own and we will have come full circle.

In truth biologically human bodies should last well over +200 years. it is our ignorant lifestyle that holds us back keeping us barely reaching 100. we are already amazing creatures who can imagine anything but we have yet to master this reality before we evolve onto the next.
 

Aramax

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captainwillies said:
There is no container for the soul. once your consciousness is downloaded into a computer you will feel eternally emtpy and eventually become fully computer like, sorta like Dr. Manhattan from watchmen his perception changed so much he couldn't communicate properly with people anymore.

besides metal rust and needs replacing, eventually computers will be made from biomaterials then soon after we will fashion bodies not unlike our own and we will have come full circle.

In truth biologically human bodies should last well over +200 years. it is our ignorant lifestyle that holds us back keeping us barely reaching 100. we are already amazing creatures who can imagine anything but we have yet to master this reality before we evolve onto the next.
If there is no container for the soul/conciousness then how do you explain your own existence? It is logical to assume that you can only be at one place at any given moment therefore you only exist inside your given body.

As for the change of perception... we wont know for sure as long as we dont try it for real.
 

maximilian

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To that degree though, how autonomous are we? Descartes claimed our being through thought, but how much of our being do we control. What I mean is, looking at brain states and deeper determinism, I may choose coke because I enjoy it - but what makes me enjoy it as an individual and how much control do I have over that? To the same degree, no matter how hard I try I will never like Fall Out Boy. Similarly, if I have no control, I can experience happiness which really puts into question the idea of "liberty/autonomy = happiness". wut wut in the butt.
 

Ignignoct

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Yes.

Make me a God and I will create a universe where I live countless human lives from all over the world, administering divine interventions betwixt my deaths, creating a heaven worthy of God, and the only hell would be reincarnation to Earth.

Let me see if I would be corrupted by this power.

Oh, and keep my human body in some sort of stasis that at least slows down my aging so I can return consciously to the real world and share my experiences.