Poll: Bayonetta

[Souplex]

So, Bayonetta is finally in Smash.
Whenever Bayonetta comes up, debates of the tumbler (I refuse to acknowledge poor spelling, which is ironic given my username) variety follow, accusing her of being a sexist icon, which brings out defenders who talk about how she's a feminist icon. I figured I'd put it to poll.

Arguments for sexist: She's heavily objectified, the camera works to her being gawked at, her moves were seemingly choreographed with a stripper pole, and she literally loses clothing in her moves.

Arguments for feminist: She's a strong, well-written female character, she has agency at all points, she's one of the only major single-mothers in gaming, the sexuality is so over-the-top as to basically be satire.

Arguments for not over-thinking games: "Souplex, just play the damn games, they're great. The music for the final boss is a J-poppy remix of "Fly me to the Moon"." -Anonymous meatspace pal of Souplex

 

[DrownedAmmet]

I only played the first game, and I found her so over the top that I took it basically as satire

I love discussions like this, though, and I like that there isn't a clear cut answer of " this is sexist" or "this is feminist"

Another question I like is should the Guardians of the Galaxy movie be praised for having a majority of the cast being not-white, or criticized because all the people of color had painted skin or were talking trees

 

[Souplex]

I only played the first game, and I found her so over the top that I took it basically as satire

I love discussions like this, though, and I like that there isn't a clear cut answer of " this is sexist" or "this is feminist"

Another question I like is should the Guardians of the Galaxy movie be praised for having a majority of the cast being not-white, or criticized because all the people of color had painted skin or were talking trees

Is Vin Diesel a person of color? I can never tell if he's white, hispanic or something else.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

I kind of want to say Sexist, Femenist and "I play games, not analyze them". I kind of feel like they all apply to Bayonetta and that's why I love the game so much. On one hand she was total eyecandy and everything she did felt like fanservice (right down to the sexy nun bit in the opening, am I right guys?). On the other hand she is totally badass, independent, comfortable with her sexuality and intimidates the ever loving shit out of me. On the third hand that I grew for this scenario the game was a blast to play, it was visually gorgeous and the music was incredible.

I feel like Bayonetta ticks off all the boxes that femenists like to have checked, but because of the medium she isn't taken seriously. I think a lot of people see Bayonetta as being "Sexy" and immediately call "Sexualisation", when the two things aren't the same. More than anything it's probably the marketing that drags her name through the mud, as the marketing certainly is plying on certain aspects to attract attention when the overall experience is so much more than "Sexy goth in catsuit poses for camera". If you just go by the marketing, then yeah she's definitely more of a passively sexual object. But in the gameplay and her universe, she's aggressively sexual; she owns it.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Who knows what 'feminist' even entails anymore in this day and age, but I certainly wouldn't call her portrayal sexist. Atleast, not so sexist that it makes me feel uncomfortable, like say, Quiet from MGS5.

Technically I guess you could say she's "sexy" and therefor she's being objectified, but the games are so overtly goofy about it that the whole thing comes off more as a joke than a cheap attempt to give dudes a boner (like Quiet).

 

[Weaver]

I think Bayonetta is a great female character, but I don't really think she's a feminist character.

 

[Zhukov]

I think some of the rationalizations that surround her are awfully weak, but I still think she's way more feminist than sexist. (As if that's some kind of sliding scale or something. Whatever, I think we all know what you mean.)

Besides, the games are so honest and up-front about it that even if I did think she was sexist I don't think it would bother me.

 

[DrownedAmmet]

I only played the first game, and I found her so over the top that I took it basically as satire

I love discussions like this, though, and I like that there isn't a clear cut answer of " this is sexist" or "this is feminist"

Another question I like is should the Guardians of the Galaxy movie be praised for having a majority of the cast being not-white, or criticized because all the people of color had painted skin or were talking trees

Is Vin Diesel a person of color? I can never tell if he's white, hispanic or something else.

Wow, way to be racist, man. Diesel is an old and respected Hispanic name, it means "incredibly jacked"

Bad jokes aside, I always thought he was half black, but according to Wikipedia his mother is white but he never knew his father, so who the fuck knows?

 

[totheendofsin]

I'm not voting because I feel one answer does not preclude the other. I feel like she lies somewhere in the middle ground that is rarely talked about in these discussions

 

[Souplex]

Bayonetta contains multitudes.

Welcome to shrug city Soup.

I demand another option! ...And maybe a sandwich! Hold the mayo please!

Just for you fine folks I added "Bayonetta defies your pathetic binary classification system!"

 

[go-10]

she's a witch and kicks angel ass all day everyday! Also she might be a bit gay... but that doesn't matter cause she kicks ass!

 

[Souplex]

I only played the first game, and I found her so over the top that I took it basically as satire

I love discussions like this, though, and I like that there isn't a clear cut answer of " this is sexist" or "this is feminist"

Another question I like is should the Guardians of the Galaxy movie be praised for having a majority of the cast being not-white, or criticized because all the people of color had painted skin or were talking trees

Is Vin Diesel a person of color? I can never tell if he's white, hispanic or something else.

Wow, way to be racist, man. Diesel is an old and respected Hispanic name, it means "incredibly jacked"

Bad jokes aside, I always thought he was half black, but according to Wikipedia his mother is white but he never knew his father, so who the fuck knows?

I don't, that's why I asked.

Spoiler: The truth is out there!

 

[Extra-Ordinary]

I kind of want to say Sexist, Femenist and "I play games, not analyze them". I kind of feel like they all apply to Bayonetta and that's why I love the game so much. On one hand she was total eyecandy and everything she did felt like fanservice (right down to the sexy nun bit in the opening, am I right guys?). On the other hand she is totally badass, independent, comfortable with her sexuality and intimidates the ever loving shit out of me. On the third hand that I grew for this scenario the game was a blast to play, it was visually gorgeous and the music was incredible.

I feel like Bayonetta ticks off all the boxes that femenists like to have checked, but because of the medium she isn't taken seriously. I think a lot of people see Bayonetta as being "Sexy" and immediately call "Sexualisation", when the two things aren't the same. More than anything it's probably the marketing that drags her name through the mud, as the marketing certainly is plying on certain aspects to attract attention when the overall experience is so much more than "Sexy goth in catsuit poses for camera". If you just go by the marketing, then yeah she's definitely more of a passively sexual object. But in the gameplay and her universe, she's aggressively sexual; she owns it.

I'm with you on this one, She owns everything she does and when it goes over the top, it goes *so* over the top that it's basically satire.
Whenever she says or does something sexual, she's doing it because she wants to, I know she's technically a video game character, she'll make whatever moves the programmers want her to, but as a character, she wants to.
I don't know, the game is fun, I think Bayonetta's hot, I don't think too much about it.

 

[Andy Shandy]

Both. As you've pointed out there are both negative and positive elements in the game.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

Whenever she says or does something sexual, she's doing it because she wants to, I know she's technically a video game character, she'll make whatever moves the programmers want her to, but as a character, she wants to.

That's really the most important aspect, isn't it. It's not like you're playing an RPG with a badass warrior lady, but then most of the armour available is a variation on the classic chainmail bikini. That revealing armour directly conflicts with the nature of the setting and the characters. Bayonetta is consistent and has agency. I mean as ridiculous as it sounds we know for a fact she chooses to be naked during her Wicked Weaves, because as far as I've seen Jeanne remains fully clothed during hers and their personalities match up with their choices.

 

[Callate]

I recognize it's become difficult in general, let alone for relatively high-profile games like Bayonetta, but I really wish we'd stop demanding that characters be icons of particular view-points. It stifles creativity to have to contemplate whether every character you make is going to become the banner in someone else's war.

Not to mention that worthwhile characters are rarely that simple. It's like suggesting that wearing lipstick and high heels causes a woman to forego any right to expect equal pay.

 

[LysanderNemoinis]

If by sexist you mean, is fun with an actual personality, then yes, Bayonetta is an incredibly sexist character. Why can't all female characters be generic, boring, "need no man" with zero personality like Rey?! Soon you'll tell me that female characters are allowed to wear dresses!

Amen! Bravo! Huzzah! Finally, someone who recognizes that the best characters are the ones with personalities and aren't walking politically correct cliches.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

Both? So I went with 'defies your pathetic binary'.

Contrary to what teh internetz would like to ignorantly believe, things in this life can 'be' more than one thing at the same time.

Though despite how endearingly bolshy her character is, I couldn't play past the demo of the original 'cause I just suck at that style of spectacle-fighter/brawler. Most of the time I've spent with that character was in Anarchy Reigns (she was a DLC purchase).

Amen! Bravo! Huzzah! Finally, someone who recognizes that the best characters are the ones with personalities and aren't walking politically correct cliches.

That is, of course, entirely subjective.