Poll: "Benevolent Sexism"...Wait, what?!

[Cavouku]

Another Canadian weighing in... Oh, never mind, looks like this thread is basically done. Oh well, to repeat:

I've held open the door for women and men. I've offered to help carry heavy things for women and men. I've offered my coat to women and yes, men (funnily, I can't recall any time when either accepted the offer).

I've been a little more discriminatory with some behaviour. I've thrown my coat over a girl once (a friend, mind). Not because she was a girl, really, but because she was the most pale person this side of albinism and despite it being autumn the sun was beating down, and you could actually see her sunburn forming as we walked.

And otherwise I've been particularly "polite" to girls I've been in relationships with. So far, no real complaints from them. If a future relationship raises a complaint, I'm hoping to be aware enough to tone that/those behaviour(s) down accordingly.

I like to think that's all okay. I'll probably continue to think so, but I'm open to the possibility of being persuaded otherwise.

 

[EternallyBored]

Another Escapist poll - another poll I can't vote in, as the replies are loaded.

Sorry, RJ, but "kind-hearted and gentlemanly" sounds like it's from another era. There's nothing gentlemanly about genderless courtesy.

Bugger being a gentlemen, try being a decent person.

Personally, I open the door for everyone, should I reach said door first, and have never felt this a huge burden on my soul, but the way some people create about it- you'd think doors were all made of fucking stone and had to be opened by sweat and blood. Opening doors is just fucking polite, it doesn't make anyone into a bloody medieval knight.

Ditto'd.

Also, 99% of 'a new study has found...' topics seem remarkably insignificant, as in the 'issue' being a complete non-issue. It has nothing to do with feminism or gender politics, and isn't exactly going to impact society going forward.

Yeah, the poll questions are extremely loaded, if anyone tried to use questions like that in a real survey, they would probably fail whatever research statistics class they were taking.

DizzyChuggernaut actually summed up benevolent sexism best earlier in the thread. It isn't, "how dare anyone be polite to me!", it's a pervasive sexism that benefits the receiver whilst still being discriminatory. Benevolent sexism is why a woman is more likely to receive less severe criminal sentencing for crimes committed, or why female teachers are treated much less harshly for having sex with their students, same concept for things like "all Asians are good at math" for benevolent racism.

It's not some world-ending problem, but its worth examining if the behavior is always necessary and how it is used. Yes, if you are polite, some people may misinterpret your intentions as being discriminatory, to which, my answer is, so fucking what? Is your ego so fragile that someone misinterpreting your intentions is some terrible thing worth getting worked up about. If a woman confronts and yells at you for holding a door open for her, that makes her an asshole, one for jumping to conclusions, and two because yelling at someone for something that, at best, would be minor gender discrimination is probably a bigger negative than the potential chance that the door opener is indeed discriminating along gender lines. Congratulations, human communication isn't perfect, and sometimes two entirely reasonable people will end up fighting because they wildly misinterpreted each others intentions, if that's enough for you to stop behaving like a "gentleman" then you were never a gentleman to begin with.

 

[Twintix]

I let people out in traffic all the time, but by god, if you don't give me a friendly thank-you wave I will follow you as close as humanly possible by a person who isn't really sure where the end of his car is, until I receive the aforementioned friendly wave. Then I will turn around at the next roundabout and go to my original destination.

I have to admit, I chuckled at this. I can just imagine, like, driving two feet apart from the driver you let out and giving them the deadliest glare you can muster.

You know what you did...[small]and you know what I want...[/small]

 

[Ramzal]

Did you tell him "Knock it off" in those exact words? Because that's probably why he flipped if that's the case. Am I saying "OH IT'S YOUR FAULT!!"? No. But he was doing something he found to be socially acceptable and appropriate with no ill will towards you, and if you responded with a hostile "Knock it off!" then I can understand him being frustrated. It sucks when you're being nice and someone flips at you.

Oh the other hand if you told him that you've got it and he persisted and he became morose trying to take the bags from you, then yeah. I can get you being upset by that.

Nope, didn't use those exact words, back then I was trying to let him down gently.

But that's exactly my point. This guy had known me for many years, but as soon as he decided he wanted to date me, he started treating me like a delicate flower when anyone who's known me more than five minutes could tell I would absolutely hate that. Because that's what he thought women should like/be like, regardless of what the individual he was trying to impress (I guess) actually wanted.

So, yeah, that whole thing was dumb.

We should all be polite to strangers, and making a show of yourself trying to be a `gentleman` is often more to do with you than the other person. (General `you`).

I get where you are coming from. But a thing to understand is that sometimes when men do these things, it's not to insult or undermine as it is just as we are raised. My mother had raised me to handle more groceries than she does when we go shopping, even when I was a child. Her reasoning was that I am able bodied and a male who will someday have to be physically strong. Incredibly sexist and very manipulative which infuriated me but I had developed a different mentality of it. If I can by any means make someone's burden physically or mentally easier I would do it. Not all of us help women with tasks because we think they're weak. But if someone says "No thanks", that should be respected.

The whole "you women" thing is a rarer mindset in men than you would think. The guys who say things like that usually were put through a ringer by their mother or someone else who happened to be a female that gave them a bad experience. That mindset doesn't come from no where, it is either taught or drilled into one's head by abusive behavior. Still, he did cross a clear line when he said it and I don't blame you for being upset as you have every right to be. Just understand that many men are just... raised to be helpful to women and they're not trying to insult women by doing these gestures as for the majority they are taught to do these things by women.

 

[Erttheking]

This seems like one of those "over there" problems. Problems that I can't seem to find anyone who has a personal experience with, but it totally happened to someone sometime.

 

[The Lunatic]

There's a notion which people are calling "Pussypass" these days. (It's a terrible name. Don't blame me, I didn't come up with it.)

Which essentially is the phenomenon in which women are get lighter sentences, or no sentences at all for the crimes they commit.

It seems perhaps to be born from the idea that women aren't as responsible for their own actions, and as such have mitigating factors that mean they're not due as much punishment in law as male offenders are.

It may also be cultural attitudes to typically consider males to be more violent and aggressive, and women to be the opposite, thus women committing crimes is sometimes seen as "Having misguided intentions".

It's rather hard to say if this falls into the category of "Benevolent sexism" or just discrimination against men. However, it's seemingly a well documented thing. I'm not sure if there's been any studies into it however.

 

[ryderawsome]

Intention and observation play a key part in this. If it is only your intention to be nice then no its not sexism. If she does not like what you are doing, because the individual opinion of the woman in question really plays the biggest part of it, then it was an honest mistake. If you keep doing it after she asks you not to then that's sexism. If she flies off the handle the first time it happens she is probably on drugs.

Simple.

 

[RobXSIQ]

So.... are we just goin to ignore the elephant in the room? You know the one, the sexual attraction elephant. I do kind thing for women because they are women, this is true. I do said kind things for women because i am sexually attracted to beautiful women. Yes that means I will step out of the way to let an attractive woman onto an elivator before me because she might smile at me if i do, and i do not let fat women on elivators before me because i dont care if they smile at me. Deal with it.

Next we will be claiming flirting is sexist.

Captcha: public good
i am becoming paranoid about captchas

Oh, well hell, I wouldn't put my pants on if not for sexual attraction. sort of the overriding trait of people is to do things in order to better situate ourselves for breeding..it has kept the species (all species) going due to that.

 

[RobXSIQ]

its funny though if you put perspective on things.

over in the middle east, men throw acid in womens faces if she goes to school, or will kill her if she disgraces the family by kissing the wrong boy.

lets talk about the pig men here who will open a door for a woman.
heh


...1st world problems.

 

[The Bucket]

I always hold the door for women, but then let it go just as they're about to cross the threshold as a show of respect for their strength /joke

Edit:

its funny though if you put perspective on things.

over in the middle east, men throw acid in womens faces if she goes to school, or will kill her if she disgraces the family by kissing the wrong boy.

lets talk about the pig men here who will open a door for a woman.
heh


...1st world problems.

To be fair, you can say that about most things; in some countries people dont have enough food or water to live, and we're getting angry about poorly optimized PC ports and sub standard FPS.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Okay, I'm seeing a sort of trend here with other men saying "well, great, now I can't even hold a door open for a woman".

Um, no.

You can hold a door open for anybody. You can stop at the side of the road during a rainy night to help anybody with a flat tire. You can carry a heavy bag for anyone who needs the help. But here's the thing: If you do those things for a woman because you think "a woman can't do that herself", then that's sexist. If you do those things for a woman because you think "a woman shouldn't have to stoop to doing that", that's also sexist.

And if a woman believes that you did something for her because you're a man, and are therefore sexist? Well, guess what: She's sexist. She's no more a member of some overarching, misandric "matriarchy" than you are a member of a "patriarchy"; she's just a sexist asshole. Adjust accordingly.

Nail on the head, right there.

EDIT: Of course we must bear in mind that I am from Canada, where overt politeness is pumped into several of our local water supplies.

I knew that tonic water would come back to haunt me.

Granted, its taste was haunting enough, but the after effects have lasted for decades.

As for opening doors in general... I'll do it for everyone, depending on, as has been mentioned, proximity.

Which has the potential to suck, massively, if you misjudge or the person in question decides that right at that moment would be a perfect time to reach into their bag/answer a call/move at the pace of a partially frozen snail, so you're kind of left standing there feeling like a total tool for doing the automatic kind thing.

 

[HankyPanky]

I'd argue there is benevolent sexism, just not that type of behavior. I'd say benevolent sexism is what white knights do: infantilize women and treat them as perfect, uncorruptable angels.

 

[cleric of the order]

This isn't surprising
sexism, originally is the attribution and or acknowledgement of sex traits.
Thus showing that sort of kindness to a lady is sexist
but it not chauvinistic, which is the words all of you want
sexism has overtaken sexual-chauvinistic oddly enough just the latter had.

 

[Cid Silverwing]

This COULD have happened to me.

A month or two back I was out to see The Battle of The Five Armies at the cinema. While on the ferry rides to and from the city I noticed nobody wanted to keep the bigass door to the second-floor salon open, so I dutifully stepped in and did my part. The most I got was a bemused "You a door guard or somethin'?" from some presumably elderly gentleman.

 

[Thaluikhain]

This COULD have happened to me.

A month or two back I was out to see The Battle of The Five Armies at the cinema. While on the ferry rides to and from the city I noticed nobody wanted to keep the bigass door to the second-floor salon open, so I dutifully stepped in and did my part. The most I got was a bemused "You a door guard or somethin'?" from some presumably elderly gentleman.

Eh, you can't do anything nowdays without elderly gentlemen giving you bemused comments. So unfair.

 

[Cid Silverwing]

Eh, you can't do anything nowdays without elderly gentlemen giving you bemused comments. So unfair.

I didn't see if the guy actually was as old as he sounded like. Regardless it was a pretty positive remark to hear, as opposed to the stereotypical "whippersnapper" bullshit I'm so used to hearing others getting exposed to.

 

[Trippy Turtle]

Doing it just because they are a girl is pretty stupid but hey. If they get a door held open who are they to complain? Its not sexism either way. Sexism is discrimination based on gender. Doing something because of someones gender is not inherently sexist or a bad thing.
I treat both genders equally. I'd hold a door open for a guy just as often as I would for a girl. I'd slam it in their faces if I didn't like them regardless of gender. Even while growing up the whole 'ladies first' thing annoyed me. And in a sinking ship I'd save a guy that I liked or a guy that was easier to help over some random girl any day. Same for a girl I liked or was easier to help.

On a semi unrelated note, I was brought up being told to be a gentleman and polite to girls and such. And was/will be to any girls I go out with. However I'd definitely be less willing to have someone as a girlfriend if she expected to be treated like that just because shes a girl.

 

[Mikeybb]

I cannot vote as when there's someone behind me and I spot them, I hold the door.
Gender and age are irellevant in this decision.
It's a matter of courtesy, primary concern being that the door doesn't slam shut on their face as I walk away.

 

[persephone]

I think benevolent sexism is a thing -- but only in some conditions. If someone *insists* on treating someone in a certain way even if she doesn't want it, that's bad. If they're okay with not doing so, but want to offer, that's just fine.

And here's the difficult bit: it's not really the action, but the intentions behind the action. Pulling someone's seat out can be either a genuine gesture of kindness or a demeaning declaration of status. The problem that pops up is when people start interpreting one as the other, either because of cultural coding or because of bad past experiences.

Is there an easy solution to that? No. No there's not.

Incidentally, I hold doors open for everyone; it's what my father taught me to do. I am, by the way, a woman. I got some surprised looks in college when I started holding doors open for men and women alike, but no one was ever offended, and they always accepted gratefully and gracefully.

Another interesting story, semi-related. I used to be sensitive to cursing (nowadays I swear like a sailor, though; age has mellowed me out quite a bit), and I once mentioned to my grandmother that all of my friends (basically all of whom were guys) always cursed around me and it annoyed me. She then gave me the most astonishing advice: that I should inform them that I was a lady, and they were not to do such things in a lady's presence!

I barely managed to keep my various reaction to this idea in until I was out of my grandmother's presence (she wouldn't have liked any of them). My first reaction was, "I am NOT a lady!" I realized then that I found the idea of being a lady very offensive. I'd known on some level I was just one of the guys, but this was the day it really sunk in. My male friends weren't being crass around me, they were just being themselves. And that was a far greater compliment, to me, than them watching their language to protect my delicate lady-ears or whatever. I realized that my problem wasn't them, but that I myself was just being far too uptight.