Alternatively titled "Why Dragon Age 2 was a step in the right direction, if they hadn't dropped the ball".
My girlfriend, bless her little heart, recently decided she'd heard quite enough about these old classic RPGs I'm always rambling on about, and wanted to try them for herself. So we downloaded Planescape Torment for her from GOG, and she finished up her play through the other night. Now, I've always held Planescape in high regard, and I've always felt that Bioware...which is sort of our go-to developer for high end story based RPGs these days...kept falling short of what Black Isle was doing with narrative over a decade ago.
Forget all the themes about belief, loss, guilt, grief and redemption woven throughout the story, the canonical ending has you merging with your own severed mortality...in effect ending your immortality and facing the punishment that awaits you for your extraordinary crimes. It's thoughtful, bittersweet, non-violent, and above all else, deeply original.
Now we have KOTOR, Mass Effect and Dragon Age: Origins. Morality is black and white (most achingly in KOTOR, where the "evil" options are the most absurd Snidely Whiplash nonsense imaginable), the heroes are all preposterous Mary Sues, and the storylines are all hackneyed "Boy's Own Adventure" rubbish. An evil Sith is threatening the universe! You must gather a band of plucky companions to stop him. An evil monster is threatening the kingdom! You must gather a band of plucky companions to stop him. Evil robots are threatening the galaxy! You must gather a band of plucky companions to stop them.
Now, there's nothing wrong with a little tepid story telling if the game and the presentation are strong, and Bioware usually delivers in this area. They write endearing characters, their dialogue sparkles with wit and personality, and they've clearly got a good handle on using music, cinematics and pacing to build atmosphere. All good. But these story lines and characters have the depth of a communion wafer. They can do better than this. They should do better than this.
Dragon Age 2 seemed like a step in the right direction. Instead of a big Foozle terrorizing the nation, we have the Arishok and the Qunari...a cauldron of political tension pushing to the boiling point by his lawful abhorrence of the depravities of Kirkwall's society. And we have the Templar/Mage conflict, where you're forced to choose between the lesser of two evils based on your personal philosophy. These are interesting conflicts, and a step in the right direction. Of course they were sloppily written and underdeveloped because Dragon Age was rushed out the door after two and a half weeks of development time, but they showed promise. And because DA2 fell flat on its ass to a certain degree, I am almost positive when DA3 rolls around Bioware will strive to redeem themselves by giving us another goddam ancient evil to overcome. WITH OUR PLUCKY COMPANIONS.
And really, at that point, I feel like I'm going to come close to being done with Bioware. Oh, don't get me wrong. I'll finish up my Mass Effect story. I care about my Shepard, I do. And I'll still look with interest on what they're up to. But this stuff will become Steam sale day purchases instead of hungrily awaited launch day buys, because there is absolutely no defensible reason why a 12 year old game should be running circles around the newest titles from a prominent RPG developer that prides itself on story. There are a lot of adults playing RPGs now. Give us some adult stories. Give us some thematic depth. Give us some complex, conflicted characters. Give us ethical dilemmas beyond "save the baby" and "shoot the baby in the face, and LAUGH!". No more Archdemons and Reapers and Sith Lords bent on destroying the galaxy because OMGSOEVIL. Enough of that shit. I'm not 12 any more, and neither are you.
Tell us a real story.
PS - Poll added for shits and giggles. I'm sure the Escapist will eat it anyway.
But according to the center for academic studies and poor story-telling the issue is not that the games are cliche it is that what the people want has changed. Better of for worse...
In any case, DA 2 was officially rated as "suck" (a nice rating we came up with back in '98).
As for you? You should try The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings.
Point though, Witcher 1 is glitchy and not worth it in our academic opinion.
You don't really need to put quotation marks around Darkspawn, it's what they're called. And it's hardly "eye-rolling" at all when presented and told as well as DA:O. Seriously, what is your problem with a fictional threat that isn't explained UNTO THE MOST MINUTE DETAIL. Part of the DA universe is the mystery surrounding the origins (hehehe) of the Darkspawn. While they are unarguably a fantasyworld zombie plague, I find it a bit annoying and even slightly pretentious that you refer to anything that doesn't meet your standards of sophistication as "middle school."
You don't really need to put quotation marks around Darkspawn, it's what they're called. And it's hardly "eye-rolling" at all when presented and told as well as DA:O. Seriously, what is your problem with a fictional threat that isn't explained UNTO THE MOST MINUTE DETAIL. Part of the DA universe is the mystery surrounding the origins (hehehe) of the Darkspawn. While they are unarguably a fantasyworld zombie plague, I find it a bit annoying and even slightly pretentious that you refer to anything that doesn't meet your standards of sophistication as "middle school."
Bioware apologists will latch onto anything to debase critical opinions of Bioware. I won't say that Bioware are terrible at their craft, far from it. They're one of the few game makers these days that gives a wit about storytelling. However, this doesn't change the fact that in any other medium their stories would be considered very subpar. We're not quick to criticize them because us narrative enthusiasts are so starved with the scraps we're left to deal with in this industry.
Honestly, I would prefer Bioware be more ambitious and creative with their subject material, but they seem content to rest of their laurels. I guess my inner storyfag must be continue its hibernation.
You don't really need to put quotation marks around Darkspawn, it's what they're called. And it's hardly "eye-rolling" at all when presented and told as well as DA:O. Seriously, what is your problem with a fictional threat that isn't explained UNTO THE MOST MINUTE DETAIL. Part of the DA universe is the mystery surrounding the origins (hehehe) of the Darkspawn. While they are unarguably a fantasyworld zombie plague, I find it a bit annoying and even slightly pretentious that you refer to anything that doesn't meet your standards of sophistication as "middle school."
Maybe I overstated, fair enough. Could you at least clarify your statement?
Bioware apologists will latch onto anything to debase critical opinions of Bioware. I won't say that Bioware are terrible at their craft, far from it. They're one of the few game makers these days that gives a wit about storytelling. However, this doesn't change the fact that in any other medium their stories would be considered very subpar. We're not quick to criticize them because us narrative enthusiasts are so starved with the scraps we're left to deal with in this industry.
Honestly, I would prefer Bioware be more ambitious and creative with their subject material, but they seem content to rest of their laurels. I guess my inner storyfag must be continue its hibernation.[/quote]
Bioware isn't a religion; it doesn't need apologists, nor am I one. I only felt that Bloatedguppy's statement was vague and even haughty. I think you overstated, on the other, in saying that Bioware's stories would be considered "subpar" in any other medium. That is definitely not true; they certainly wouldn't all be golden, but they wouldn't be "subpar."
Maybe I overstated, fair enough. Could you at least clarify your statement?
Bioware isn't a religion; it doesn't need apologists, nor am I one. I only felt that Bloatedguppy's statement was vague and even haughty. I think you overstated, on the other, in saying that Bioware's stories would be considered "subpar" in any other medium. That is definitely not true; they certainly wouldn't all be golden, but they wouldn't be "subpar."
I'm not sure what I can clarify here. I think the Darkspawn are a little silly. Are they the worst thing I've ever seen in a video game? Certainly not. Are they a wee bit trite and hackneyed? I think it's safe to say they are. We've seen this kind of thing a billion times before. Bioware had an opportunity to give us something truly original with the Dragon Age universe...at least insofar as gaming goes (authors have been aggressively subverting fantasy tropes for a couple of decades now). In fact, they stated while the game was in development that this was their intention...
It's Bioware's third shot at drafting an entire world from scratch, an unidealized fantasy preserve the company's described as "dark heroic fantasy" inspired by realistic fantasy fiction writers like George R.R. Martin.
I would suggest that they seriously misapprehended A Song of Ice and Fire if their take on it was a lot of blood spatter and ghoulish monsters. I say "middle school" because this is exactly the kind of fantasy I was reading in middle school. Slavering horde of evil threatens the realm, plucky adventurers must foil it, etc. You read "A Song of Ice and Fire" or "The First Law" and you're not really entirely sure from moment to moment where your sympathies lay. The "heroes" are flawed, the "villains" are sympathetic, and no one's motivation is "evil". I was excited to experience this kind of story telling in a game. Instead I got a DEEPLY traditional narrative about sinister monsters and an Archdemon and a noble order and blah blah blah. There was some thought provoking stuff in the subtext, as there always is with Bioware, but they need to start writing their primary storylines with the same nuance, intelligence and professionalism they bring to their side quests.
But really, that is just me. Contrary to some of my more vigorous detractors, I don't think it's pretentious or snooty to want my "adult fantasy epic" to feel more adult, especially when we already have a billion cheerfully lowbrow games to choose from. I feel like I shouldn't need to keep repeating it, but I really love Bioware. I think Dragon Age is an excellent series. I think Mass Effect is an excellent series. I think they make excellent games. But I think they're starting to coast, now, and they're lapsing into a formula, and I think they're capable of much, much more.
Maybe I overstated, fair enough. Could you at least clarify your statement?
Bioware isn't a religion; it doesn't need apologists, nor am I one. I only felt that Bloatedguppy's statement was vague and even haughty. I think you overstated, on the other, in saying that Bioware's stories would be considered "subpar" in any other medium. That is definitely not true; they certainly wouldn't all be golden, but they wouldn't be "subpar."
I'm not sure what I can clarify here. I think the Darkspawn are a little silly. Are they the worst thing I've ever seen in a video game? Certainly not. Are they a wee bit trite and hackneyed? I think it's safe to say they are. We've seen this kind of thing a billion times before. Bioware had an opportunity to give us something truly original with the Dragon Age universe...at least insofar as gaming goes (authors have been aggressively subverting fantasy tropes for a couple of decades now). In fact, they stated while the game was in development that this was their intention...
It's Bioware's third shot at drafting an entire world from scratch, an unidealized fantasy preserve the company's described as "dark heroic fantasy" inspired by realistic fantasy fiction writers like George R.R. Martin.
I would suggest that they seriously misapprehended A Song of Ice and Fire if their take on it was a lot of blood spatter and ghoulish monsters. I say "middle school" because this is exactly the kind of fantasy I was reading in middle school. Slavering horde of evil threatens the realm, plucky adventurers must foil it, etc. You read "A Song of Ice and Fire" or "The First Law" and you're not really entirely sure from moment to moment where your sympathies lay. The "heroes" are flawed, the "villains" are sympathetic, and no one's motivation is "evil". I was excited to experience this kind of story telling in a game. Instead I got a DEEPLY traditional narrative about sinister monsters and an Archdemon and a noble order and blah blah blah. There was some thought provoking stuff in the subtext, as there always is with Bioware, but they need to start writing their primary storylines with the same nuance, intelligence and professionalism they bring to their side quests.
But really, that is just me. Contrary to some of my more vigorous detractors, I don't think it's pretentious or snooty to want my "adult fantasy epic" to feel more adult, especially when we already have a billion cheerfully lowbrow games to choose from. I feel like I shouldn't need to keep repeating it, but I really love Bioware. I think Dragon Age is an excellent series. I think Mass Effect is an excellent series. I think they make excellent games. But I think they're starting to coast, now, and they're lapsing into a formula, and I think they're capable of much, much more.
Well, while I wouldn't call anything they've done "cheerfully lowbrow," I'm beginning to see your point. Disappointment is a cruel *****, but when they said they were "inspired by" A Song of Fire and Ice (which I plan on reading once the books are back in the public library, and after I've finished the Dark Tower series) or that they liked it, it didn't necessarily indicate it'd follow in the exact same vein. If one were to go into DA:O (as I did) without any expectations other than a gripping and beautifully-woven interactive tale of adventure from a dependable studio, then you might not have been so disappointed. As for them being more ambitious, "wagging a finger" at them from the Escapist forums won't speed things up. All we can do is wait (for EA to loosen their snakelike stranglehold on their captives) for the next IP, and see how their creativity flows. And that by DA 3 they've recovered all the set pieces which were, presumably, set afire by the Archdemon before the making of DA 2.
Well, while I wouldn't call anything they've done "cheerfully lowbrow," I'm beginning to see your point. Disappointment is a cruel *****, but when they said they were "inspired by" A Song of Fire and Ice (which I plan on reading once the books are back in the public library, and after I've finished the Dark Tower series) or that they liked it, it didn't necessarily indicate it'd follow in the exact same vein. If one were to go into DA:O (as I did) without any expectations other than a gripping and beautifully-woven interactive tale of adventure from a dependable studio, then you might not have been so disappointed. As for them being more ambitious, "wagging a finger" at them from the Escapist forums won't speed things up. All we can do is wait (for EA to loosen their snakelike stranglehold on their captives) for the next IP, and see how their creativity flows. And that by DA 3 they've recovered all the set pieces which were, presumably, set afire by the Archdemon before the making of DA 2.
I wouldn't necessarily call BIOWARE'S games "cheerfully lowbrow". But I would say the BULK of games are. As I said earlier in the thread, I don't need every game I play to be intellectually rigorous. I like a big dumb game as much as the next guy. But the big RPGS from the big RPG studio that prides itself on story? Those I'm going to be harder on and expect more from.
As to whether or not they wanted to get quite as greyscale as ASOIF, you're right, they probably didn't, but they should possibly have held back on invoking George R.R. Martin's work as their primary inspiration if they were going to trot out a timeworn fantastical invasion by brutish monsters tale.
And believe me, I don't think for a second ANYTHING I do personally is going to magically light a fire under Bioware's ass and make them change their formula. This is a discussion forum, so I presented an opinion for discussion. I'm hopeful we'll see them continue with some of the themes they started to dig into with the tragically uneven Dragon Age 2, but I'm suspicious that the poor reception it got will see them go back to a "Big Bad Threatens the World" narrative.
Well, while I wouldn't call anything they've done "cheerfully lowbrow," I'm beginning to see your point. Disappointment is a cruel *****, but when they said they were "inspired by" A Song of Fire and Ice (which I plan on reading once the books are back in the public library, and after I've finished the Dark Tower series) or that they liked it, it didn't necessarily indicate it'd follow in the exact same vein. If one were to go into DA:O (as I did) without any expectations other than a gripping and beautifully-woven interactive tale of adventure from a dependable studio, then you might not have been so disappointed. As for them being more ambitious, "wagging a finger" at them from the Escapist forums won't speed things up. All we can do is wait (for EA to loosen their snakelike stranglehold on their captives) for the next IP, and see how their creativity flows. And that by DA 3 they've recovered all the set pieces which were, presumably, set afire by the Archdemon before the making of DA 2.
I wouldn't necessarily call BIOWARE'S games "cheerfully lowbrow". But I would say the BULK of games are. As I said earlier in the thread, I don't need every game I play to be intellectually rigorous. I like a big dumb game as much as the next guy. But the big RPGS from the big RPG studio that prides itself on story? Those I'm going to be harder on and expect more from.
As to whether or not they wanted to get quite as greyscale as ASOIF, you're right, they probably didn't, but they should possibly have held back on invoking George R.R. Martin's work as their primary inspiration if they were going to trot out a timeworn fantastical invasion by brutish monsters tale.
And believe me, I don't think for a second ANYTHING I do personally is going to magically light a fire under Bioware's ass and make them change their formula. This is a discussion forum, so I presented an opinion for discussion. I'm hopeful we'll see them continue with some of the themes they started to dig into with the tragically uneven Dragon Age 2, but I'm suspicious that the poor reception it got will see them go back to a "Big Bad Threatens the World" narrative.
True, it probably would've been wiser to only mention him as perhaps a "favorite genre author" instead of as a major inspiration. Maybe they'll leap back into formula, maybe they won't. But it's like the work of Stephen King (one of my favorites, also a specialist in characters and their development): it may be somewhat familiar, but if it's good, there's no point in complaining. They're already experts at this particular formula, so once the money flows, EA will loosen its coils and they'll probably be free to experiment as much as they they (and we) want.
Bioware isn't a religion; it doesn't need apologists, nor am I one. I only felt that Bloatedguppy's statement was vague and even haughty. I think you overstated, on the other, in saying that Bioware's stories would be considered "subpar" in any other medium. That is definitely not true; they certainly wouldn't all be golden, but they wouldn't be "subpar."
Considering the standard of quality for both movies and literature it would be safe to say that so far Bioware's stories have been subpar by those standards. That is not to imply Bioware is lazy by any means, its just that the gaming storytelling bar is very low. Analyze most of their stories and themes beyond the barest of scrunity and you'll see troubling problems. Just look at their latest outings, Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2, you'll notice they're laden with plot holes and other shortcomings. They make great games(DA2 less so), but their stories aren't THAT good.
*notes that BloatedGuppy seems to have abandoned the conversation we were having*
Condiments said:
BloatedGuppy said:
josephmatthew10 said:
You don't really need to put quotation marks around Darkspawn, it's what they're called. And it's hardly "eye-rolling" at all when presented and told as well as DA:O. Seriously, what is your problem with a fictional threat that isn't explained UNTO THE MOST MINUTE DETAIL. Part of the DA universe is the mystery surrounding the origins (hehehe) of the Darkspawn. While they are unarguably a fantasyworld zombie plague, I find it a bit annoying and even slightly pretentious that you refer to anything that doesn't meet your standards of sophistication as "middle school."
Bioware apologists will latch onto anything to debase critical opinions of Bioware. I won't say that Bioware are terrible at their craft, far from it. They're one of the few game makers these days that gives a wit about storytelling. However, this doesn't change the fact that in any other medium their stories would be considered very subpar. We're not quick to criticize them because us narrative enthusiasts are so starved with the scraps we're left to deal with in this industry.
Honestly, I would prefer Bioware be more ambitious and creative with their subject material, but they seem content to rest of their laurels. I guess my inner storyfag must be continue its hibernation.
Meh, you're missing the point somewhat, I could cite many amazing books and movies that were quite simple from a narrative prospective, yet what makes them work? Strength of the plot, strength of the characters, subtleties in the presentation and aesthetics. There's a lot of meaning that you can bring to a boilerplate storyline if you handle it in a mature way.
Bioware knows how to handle simplistic storylines, saying their storylines are simple completely misses the point.
*notes that BloatedGuppy seems to have abandoned the conversation we were having*
Condiments said:
BloatedGuppy said:
josephmatthew10 said:
You don't really need to put quotation marks around Darkspawn, it's what they're called. And it's hardly "eye-rolling" at all when presented and told as well as DA:O. Seriously, what is your problem with a fictional threat that isn't explained UNTO THE MOST MINUTE DETAIL. Part of the DA universe is the mystery surrounding the origins (hehehe) of the Darkspawn. While they are unarguably a fantasyworld zombie plague, I find it a bit annoying and even slightly pretentious that you refer to anything that doesn't meet your standards of sophistication as "middle school."
Bioware apologists will latch onto anything to debase critical opinions of Bioware. I won't say that Bioware are terrible at their craft, far from it. They're one of the few game makers these days that gives a wit about storytelling. However, this doesn't change the fact that in any other medium their stories would be considered very subpar. We're not quick to criticize them because us narrative enthusiasts are so starved with the scraps we're left to deal with in this industry.
Honestly, I would prefer Bioware be more ambitious and creative with their subject material, but they seem content to rest of their laurels. I guess my inner storyfag must be continue its hibernation.
Meh, you're missing the point somewhat, I could cite many amazing books and movies that were quite simple from a narrative prospective, yet what makes them work? Strength of the plot, strength of the characters, subtleties in the presentation and aesthetics. There's a lot of meaning that you can bring to a boilerplate storyline if you handle it in a mature way.
Bioware knows how to handle simplistic storylines, saying their storylines are simple completely misses the point.
I've never said Bioware's stories are inherently bad because they're "simple". Even simple stories can be thick with symbolism, atmosphere, and themes. Even if we're basing their ability to craft stories while disregarding their reliance on formula(Pursue X macguffins), they still run into significant problems. Take Mass Effect 2, often praised for its story, is RIFE with glaring plot holes, inconsistencies, and just bad storytelling.
There is also the larger issue of which the OP speaks of, which is the lack of pursuing ambitious narrative goals. They claim to put a "focus" on story, but still chock full of endless wave combat encounters, and thematically paper thin plots.
Even though it may sound I dislike Bioware games, this is not the case. I've been a fan since the original Baldur's gate. There is just that ache with every release for something more.
Honestly its a dream that will never be realized, but it would be awesome for Bioware to get their hands on the Baldur's gate series again. Black Isle was working on the third installment before interplay when under, but I found a unfinished plot synopsis of what it could of been. These are the kinds of plots that would be interesting so see.
"May Farrow and her gang of raiders have spent weeks tracking down the black hound, the essence of May's guilt for unleashing a great evil. The player character is resting by the firelight in an old barn to hide from the storm outside when a black hound arrives and after being shot twice by an arrow, it cries one last time before it dies on the player lap. May almost kills the player, accusing him of being in league with the dog (meaning she thinks your another essence of her guilt) and almost kills you before the Riders of Archendale save you. They question you, take you to the magistrate, who question you further and inform you not to leave the areas of North Sembia, Archendale, Battledale and Deepingdale. Whenever the player then approaches somebody with great guilt, the black hound appears to him and eventually the players actions make the player the essence of guilt throughout the four areas mentioned above. As the player unravels more secrets, he learns that he cant kill guilt, thus he cannot kill the black hound or what he has become (the player can physically die, but people wont forget about the player did). Eventually he learns the tale of a widowed farmer's wife, taking great guilt in her husbands death as for some reason she believes its her fault, she tries to resurrect him. She succeeds but finds him to be an abomination and cannot stop him, despite him being very weak at the time. Through the course of the game, the farmer is growing stronger and stronger of the guilt absorbed by the black hound through the player. The player learns of this wife being May Farrow, who believes killing the hound would be a way to stop the farmer, the hound however latched its soul onto the player and uses him as a guilt tunnel."
Bioware isn't a religion; it doesn't need apologists, nor am I one. I only felt that Bloatedguppy's statement was vague and even haughty. I think you overstated, on the other, in saying that Bioware's stories would be considered "subpar" in any other medium. That is definitely not true; they certainly wouldn't all be golden, but they wouldn't be "subpar."
Considering the standard of quality for both movies and literature it would be safe to say that so far Bioware's stories have been subpar by those standards. That is not to imply Bioware is lazy by any means, its just that the gaming storytelling bar is very low. Analyze most of their stories and themes beyond the barest of scrunity and you'll see troubling problems. Just look at their latest outings, Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2, you'll notice they're laden with plot holes and other shortcomings. They make great games(DA2 less so), but their stories aren't THAT good.
I'd say the bar is at a fair level these days, what with games like BioShock, Portal (1 & 2), Red Dead Redemption, and the Assassin's Creed series. And I'd say that even by those standards most of Bioware's stories hold up, thanks to their well-written, colorful characters and excellent world-building.
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