Poll: Can a movie be good if the ending has the bad guy win?

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ShotgunSmoke

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barryween said:
If you haven't seen Watchmen don't click I guess...
Look at Watchmen and you'll know the answer is:
yes.
Veidt wasn't the bad guy. He saved the world. Literally. Sure, he killed millions of people, but in case of nuclear war, many more people would have died.

The answer is yes, definitely. 80% of good vs bad movies, the bad guy is much cooler than the good guy.
 

Ben7

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To people posting Lord of War, he wasn't exactly evil, and he didnt really win at the end considering he lost everything he loved.

And yes a movie can not just be good but great if the bad guy wins.
 

Supreme Unleaded

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StevieWonderMk2 said:
Supreme Unleaded said:
Didn't watchmen end with the "bad guy winning", oh yeah thats right, the movie wasnt all that good.

OPINION
You're an idiot troll who contributes nothing to the thread.

OPINION

You can't just slap "OPINION" at the end of a no-content post. The forums aren't just a meaningless shouting ground, try and get some discusison going. Why is Watchmen not good?
Lets see, for one thats my opinon since im not a giant fanboy of Watchmen I didnt like it all that much, but anyway.

The sex scene seemed unneeded.

The was so much blood that it was discusting, I can take blood I really dont care, but there was so much unneeded blood.

Alot of death was unneeded

And i felt that the few action scenes where lackluster

It just felt like a lot of unneeded stuff watered it down for me. Like I said, this is MY OPINION of the movie, I havent read the comic books or anything els, the movie was the fist thing i saw of the series.
 

RemoteControlRox

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Thought of another one, and it doesn't seem like anyone's posted it yet, so:
Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog
The ending's a little more complicated than "the bad guy wins," though. The whole thing is, in all it's glory.
 

A Weary Exile

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fix-the-spade said:
wouldyoukindly99 said:
The Watchmen was one of my all time favorite movies and I'm guessing that you're one of two people:

Fanboy who's obsession with the comic makes him hate every other interpretation of the source material. <--This.
OR
A moron with the attention span of a dyslexic squrriel. <-- Not this. I've watched Lawrence fof Arabia in one sitting.

Don't say something isn't good without giving reasons.
Ok, I'll explain why.

Watchmen the film takes away some very, very key points to the story and characters whilst cramming in as much of the useless ephemera as possible. The result is the complete opposite of The Lord of the Rings (where things were ruthlessly cut to focus purely on the main drive of the story), you get the impressions that whoever directed and wrote the screenplay were only vaguely familiar with the book despite claiming to be fans. They obviously decided to make the film showing all the bits that Moore and Gibbons couldn't show you, when the entire point is that it's what Moore and Gibbons wouldn't show you.
The audience is supposed to make up their own mind.


<spoiler=Take Rorschach for example> In the comic his actions are never justified by anyone but him, the audience is expected to decide for themselves.

The 'child murderer' for example, is never explicitly said to have done anything wrong, he never admits to it (quite the opposite), the dogs are fighting over a generic bone and the scrap of fabric he finds is one of many (it's an old dress maker's shop).

Same applies to the prison inmate who wants an autograph. In the book that's all he wants, in the films he's got a shiv.

The film constantly goes out of it's way to justify Rorschach as 'not all that bad' when the whole point is you yourself are supposed to decide whether he is genuinely trying to do good, or no better than the criminals he claims to be fighting.


<spoiler=Other minor things that show a general lack of care and attention to detail>

Ozymandius' attack, if an ostensibly American weapon suddenly obliterated Moscow, Russia wouldn't wait to see who else was hit. The whole point of the Alien attack scenario was it's supposed a completely outside influence that can hit anyone at anytime, yet can be defended against.
It was supposed to be an accident rather than an attack, it was also supposed to force the superpowes into working together to protect everyone, not just continue to be enemies in a constant state of fear.

Archie fires a gatling gun, inside the New York city limits. Rotary cannon, sky scrapers, the National Guard would be there in minutes. Why didn't they just stick with the extremely cool fire suppression system?

The short guy in the prison, does he or does he not die?

Dan Dreiburg doesn't like Rorschach, despite being his friend he knows his life would be a lot easier if Rorschach stopped busting his door all the time and jsut didn't come back. When Rorschach leaves Ozymandius headquarters, he doesn't question it.

Was there any reason for that 10minutes(!!!) long sex scene? It would have been nice if not for the middle aged man taking half the screen up, why not the twenty seconds you-know-what-happens next from the comic?

My biggest problem is that reading the comic then coming to the film you get the impression the people making the film thought they knew better. The effect isn't hugely different to what a 15 year old fan fic writer would produce. All the things they needn't have bothered with and the important bits changed because they didn't have faith in the original telling.

It's not a bad film as such, it's just hugely irritating to see something so well written and constructed treated with such a lack of care.
I kind of see your point but those little things aren't enough to make it a bad movie in my view. Although I never read the comic (Graphic Novel! Whatever!) I thought it very well-acted, had good music and put together in an interesting non-chronological fashion in addition to the visual flair of the director making for what I thought was a great movie. Also I looked up what they all looked like in the comic and I can say without a shadow of a dobt that their movie counterparts look much cooler (Except for Rorshach who changes very little). Sorry for the fanboy comment, you don't seem like the stupid kind of fan.
 

yoyo13rom

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mthl94 said:
barryween said:
Look at Watchmen and you'll know the answer is:
yes.
I really don't think that's a good example. In Watchmen there are no real bad guys only those with different viewpoints.. For example Vedit truly meant no wrong through his actions and it can easily be argued as a justified morally right response to the situation at hand.
Ok, I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but why did this guy get banned?
Hear me out(and don't flame me!): but although Vedit did a shit load of evil things, I didn't consider him much of a bad guy. I mean, his actions felt rather justified in the end, imo.
So what did this poor soul say/do so wrong to get banned?(just curious, that's all)
 

GothmogII

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Godofgame67 said:
Of course. Look at Scarface.
That was more of a pyrrhic victory though, I don't really consider
ending up dead face down in your fountain
a 'victory' in the purest sense. Though he did go out with style. :3

If Brazil hasn't been mentioned yet I'll do so now. The -proper- ending is a real downer and a triumph for the bad guys, although many feel like it's a kind of 'it was all a dream' cop out'. Won't spoil it though. ;)
 

Zannah

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Jan 27, 2010
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If we take a close look at the fact, that in 99.9% of all movies ever made ever, the bad guys are

-more interesting
-way cooler
-more relateable
-more likely to win, given the whole thing was real

the question should be - can a movie be good, when the good guys win (Or for that matter, can a movie be good, if there's a clear black / white line, anyway)
 

youngj

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Nov 19, 2009
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Umm, Empire Strikes Back? Revenge of the Sith? Though movie where the bad guy wins are far less common than movies where both the protagonist and bad guy kill each other.
 

the Dept of Science

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6 Movies that I don't think have been mentioned yet...

One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
Memento
Cool Hand Luke
Amores Perros
Silence of the Lambs
(500) Days of Summer ends with the guy not getting the girl
 

Kaymish

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Sep 10, 2008
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yes some of the best films have the big bad win and i really hate (no hate is not strong enough word) despise it when the idiot hero wins
 

Everin

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Apr 15, 2009
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The Joker pretty much won in the Dark Knight and in No Country for Old Men the sheriff (the main character) got killed about halfway through.
 

TPiddy

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It's rather unfortunate that the topic of the post is just going to spoil any mentioned title for everyone....

for example, the one movie I was going to suggest that no one has yet is:

Arlington Road

And it was spectacular, but now you know the bad guy wins which kind of ruins half the move for you. However, you should STILL watch it if you haven't because the set up makes the pay off totally worth it!
 

Marter

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I can most certainly work, and I would welcome it to happen more often.