Poll: Can games be art?

[CloudNineK]

I'd like to get this discussion going again after considering other forms of media. If books, movies, music, and games can all be considered forms of entertainment, surely games could somehow become art like the others.

I think what makes these other forms considered art is their sacrifice of focusing exclusively on entertainment and trying to be intellectual and present a message that affects the audience.

Some movies like Citizen Kane are considered art and many books like The Red Badge of Courage are as well. What makes games different? I think what games need to do is sacrifice the entertainment focus on fun for a focus on a deep message. Should this ever be done or are games best off staying as pure entertainment?

I've been playing Mass Effect 2 and been trying to figure out if it could be considered as art and the main thing I notice is that it seems like there is authorial intent, that the writers are saying paragon is the wiser and "correct" choice while renegade is usually malicious and misguided. The characters all seem to represent different parts of humanity, but the messages they give through their missions seem to be a little simple and straightforward, not saying anything truly deep about humans.

My conclusion about Mass Effect 2 and many other games, is that it is art, just not sophisticated art. I like to boil games down to separate pieces like graphics, music, story, and gameplay and I want to know could a game be considered art if only one of these was artistic or do all of them have to be artistic? And finally how could gameplay be artistic? Gameplay is an experience so what makes an experience artistic?

I could picture a game of The Red Badge of Courage that uses graphics, music, and sound to punctuate the protagonists' inner growth from youth to man. It could be some kind of psychedelic thing making him seem small and telling the story through hearing his inner thoughts as voice-over. I'm not saying this would be a good game, I just want to get to the heart of this premise.

I think games have the potential to be art since they involve so many things, but they always seem to focus on just being simple fun. I'm sorry if this is a lot to respond to, but any input is appreciated and any arguments for any of these points would be beneficial. I love to be proven wrong because learning arises from failure. Could somebody please elaborate on any games they believe to be art and argue why? (ex. Shadow of the Colossus, never played it, but I hear its great)

 

[Lightslei]

Couldn't break it up could you.

What makes games different? Absolutely nothing.
Are games pure entertainment? No. (See cutscenes, unless you think cartoons or movies have no artistic element to them).
How could gameplay be artistic? It is IN MY OPINION.

Here's the thing, art is subjective. Factor in all of the definitions of art, I tend to use this one:
"the principles or methods governing any craft or branch of learning".

If you think the graphic design of a game isn't art, then you are saying things like painting, drawing, etc isn't art.
If you think figuring out what soundtracks go where and what sound effects go well with what scenery, etc then you are saying that music isn't an art.
If you say coming up with a storyboard isn't art, then you are saying writing isn't an art.

Art is what you define it as, and to me everything is an art when you look at it. The hardest argument you could give me is level design, and to that I say go make a aesthetically pleasing well designed game with an exceptional musical score and a great storyboard...

Not so easy anymore.... is it?

 

[Resurrectionist]

The Art of Gaming Discussion.
Real Live Drama.

 

[Pimppeter2]

No, I don't think games are art.

For my full opinion, please search the other million of topics on this that have been done in the past 3 months.

Games are art in the same way that Tyler Parry's House of Pain is art. Which is to say, its just because its a creative property. So are my reviews, doesn't mean I go around calling myself an artist.

 

[CloudNineK]

I apologize for not breaking up my post, I'm not very experienced at posting, but thank you for letting me know.

I understand art is subjective, what I mean to ask is are there any games today that rival the artistic value of other great works. Saying that all art is just subjective doesn't leave a lot of room for discussion regarding the present state of games.

I guess really in the end, the strengths of the medium are best employed the way they always have been and there's no getting around the fact that games are always gonna be games. Books are always gonna be books and some of those books will be worth studying for intellectual pursuits and few games will be.

On a side note there is a game out now called 100 Classic Books coming for Nintendo DS. Although its more like a Kindle for DS than an actual game.

@Zeeky_Santos: I understand this has been discussed before but its hard to get into a conversation and voice one's own opinion on a discussion that no longer exists. Also when was I being "whiny?" I'm trying to ask a serious question for which there has never been nor ever will be a unanimous answer.

 

[Kagim]

Part of a games conception is goal to profit money. Meaning artistic development takes a back seat to marketability. That's not an insult. The game business is just that, a business.

While it can be art I would never say it equals stuff by people like, say, Mark Ryden. For no other reason then Business takes a back seat to artwork. Both are very skilled and talented mediums however, both can be called art.

Though i would put it above whores like the people who made "My Bed" and "Lights going out" since they are just no talent hacks hiding behind "It's abstract art you just don't get it" to protect the tidy sum they make off stupid people.

Art to me is when someone creates something with a great handle of a skill or talent. A carpenter who makes a great house is art. A cook who prepares a fine meal is art. A programmer who writes elegant code is art. When the skill is done for the explicit reason of money, then i feel its a shade lower. However someone who takes a skill they are great with and turns it into profit, which would still include certain video games, then its art.

 

[AgentNein]

Alright, this is definitely a can of worms. I won't go into it too much because then we'll be arguing semantics, and as much as I ENJOY arguing semantics (hey, they can be important!), I don't have that time today.

My only question is what makes games have less potential to be art than any other medium? What gives them any less potential to convey moods, ideas, thoughts, emotions?

I can't find any reason why games have less potential than any other medium. I don't think games have reached that point YET, but I see no reason why they won't eventually.

It was over fifty years from the birth of the modern comic book till the comic medium gave us Neil Gaiman's Sandman after all!

 

[TheComedown]

I'm trying to ask a serious question for which there has never been a unanimous answer.

There never will be, art is subjective, everyone sees art as something different. You're asking for a definitive answer on something subjective and personal, its not going to happen.

 

[Pimppeter2]

No, I don't think games are art.

For my full opinion, please search the other million of topics on this that have been done in the past 3 months.

Games are art in the same way that Tyler Parry's House of Pain is art. Which is to say, its just because its a creative property. So are my reviews, doesn't mean I go around calling myself an artist.

That's a pretty vague and general statement, I mean your reviews might not be art, but if a professional author went around writing up some of the greatest reviews ever, they could be art.

Precisely. No game has ever been (in my opinion) of that quality. No game has been created the is like a "professional author going around writing up some of the greatest reviews ever", but more like my own little review series that means nothing and is riddled with flaws.

So no, Games are not art. They very well could be, but most likely not in my life time.

Hey, maybe when videogame story telling stops trying to emulate straight to DVD B rated movies, then I'll think about it again.

 

[L4hlborg]

If you use the right tricks in the right way, you can make the gameplay an important part of the plot. Take Bioshock for instance (there will be spoilers, if you haven't played the game yet). The game is very linear, even though the game was promised to be open. Then suddenly when the famous "Would you kindly" twist kicks in, it changes the whole meaning of the linear gameplay, making it suddenly a story of free will and mind control. I think this is a case where the gameplay gets involved with the art.

 

[Kragg]

Yes, but first people have to stop whining about it, making repeat threads and such. Seriously, this's been done a thousand times before, you hardly made it because you wanted to know the general opinion as opposed to getting a fast thread in.

exactly and i am glad i am not the only one getting annoyed

 

[Harlemura]

I don't think games are art, and I hope the idea doesn't catch on.
Then game developers will focus too much on the art and not the game.
And then games will suck.

As I've said in the rest of these threads.

 

[CloudNineK]

I'm trying to ask a serious question for which there has never been a unanimous answer.

There never will be, art is subjective, everyone sees art as something different. You're asking for a definitive answer on something subjective and personal, its not going to happen.

I agree I don't think there ever will be a unanimous answer, but it is human nature to try to do the impossible. Impossible pursuits are fun to wrap the mind around. My original post tried to break down my way of analyzing how a game could be art, this thread was created so I could share them with other people's opinions and possibly have some good thoughts to walk away with instead of sheer hostility from a topic that I am now aware nobody is interested in even thinking of anymore. I for one, like to look back on old topics with fresh perspectives.

If you are tired of a topic why come into it only to complain about how you don't want to talk about it? That's like catching yourself on fire to remind yourself how much you hate pain.

 

[Diligent]

Back when Ebert said something about this and it was a relevant topic, Penny Arcade said something to the effect of, "If 100 artists work on art for 3 years, how can the product not be art?" in reference to video games.

It is undeniable that there are artistic elements in video games, but if you were to, for example, hang a bunch of paintings on a statue, and have a makeup artist paint the statues face, it doesn't make the whole thing a new work of art...it makes it a defaced statue with paintings hanging from it.

So simply being made up of artistic elements isn't enough to be able to call something art.
After all, an artist had to design the visual style of "Hungry Hungry Hippos".

 

[nick n stuff]

as long as i can play it and be entertained i'm all good with it. art or no art, a good game is a good game

 

[TheComedown]

I'm trying to ask a serious question for which there has never been a unanimous answer.

There never will be, art is subjective, everyone sees art as something different. You're asking for a definitive answer on something subjective and personal, its not going to happen.

I agree I don't think there ever will be a unanimous answer, but it is human nature to try to do the impossible. Impossible pursuits are fun to wrap the mind around. My original post tried to break down my way of analyzing how a game could be art, this thread was created so I could share them with other people's opinions and possibly have some good thoughts to walk away with instead of sheer hostility from a topic that I am now aware nobody is interested in even thinking of anymore. I for one, like to look back on old topics with fresh perspectives.

If you are tired of a topic why come into it only to complain about how you don't want to talk about it? That's like catching yourself on fire to remind yourself how much you hate pain.

I came to the topic to explain my opinion, I didn't see any hostility in my post.

You appear to have contradicted yourself a number of times as well."Impossible pursuits are fun to wrap the mind around" this is an impossibility, if you can wrap your mind around the impossible, it becomes possible. You can try, or you can wrap your mind around why its impossible, but not the impossible itself.

1 week later hardly counts as a fresh perspective, the topic has yet to become old, its been talked about constantly for the last few months at least. And like i said art is subjective, and people are stubborn, so the likely hood of anyones opinions changing in that week are next to none.

 

[Bison Dollars]

I think games can be art, but the majority aren't really there yet. Some devs have made games that I think could clearly be considered art, Team Ico being the most obvious example.

Also, let's remember that Ebert gave The Phantom Menace three and a half stars out of four. Hmmm.

(Anyone interested in the idea of games as art should also check out Ice Pick Lodge studios, a great little Russian dev company who've done a couple of fantastic 'art games' over the last few years, namely Pathologic and The Void)