Poll: Can piracy be justified?

[mateushac]

I'd generally say only in case of abandonware (sometimes even not that)

 

[In Search of Username]

No. Not in ANY case. And for a single reason that nobody seems to notice.

There are a lot of reasons people will give to justify piracy, such as price, business practices personal taste of the choice of game/film/ect. But if you're still pirating the game/film to play/watch it, it renders all your reasons meangless because it's still worth owning despite the flaws. And it's it's worth owning, it's worth paying for.

If you're going to pirate, then pirate. But admit that you're doing it for the same reason everyone else is doing. Because you don't want to pay for anything. Don't pretend you're some Robin Hood standing up for consumer rights, when all you are is a thief.

Because none of your justifications are going to have any merit if the police come knocking at your door. And contrary to popular belief, you don't get to shirk the law when it becomes bothersome to you.

How about the argument that, for example, the band you're illegally downloading music from already have far more money than you will ever see in your life, whereas you, the person downloading the music, may not have much money at all? How can you possibly argue that they need your money more than you do? They're not going to struggle because they don't have it. They're not even going to notice the difference.

Honestly, I think the only time you can argue against piracy is when you're talking about some indie game or some obscure music made by people who will really be affected by your piracy.

No. Being wealthy does not make your ownership of your music/game/film any less valid. If you want music, pay for it. If you don't have a lot of money, don't buy the music. It's not "don't buy it and steal it" it's "do without." Stealing a big Triple-A game is just as wrong as stealing an indie game. Rich people have the right to their intellectual property just like your or I do.

Once again, nobody needs entertainment products. Stealing a loaf of bread to feed your starving family is one thing, but music and games are not something you have a right to. They are luxuries you indulge in if you have the resources to do it. The wealth of the provider is irrelevant, it does not make the effort they put into creating their work any less valuable.

How can the music I want to listen to be an unnecessary luxury while piling even more money on top of an already vast fortune is perfectly reasonable as long as it's 'earned'? Your idea of morality must be very different from mine. Everyone needs to make a living, but if you have so much money that any contribution from me becomes meaningless, I don't feel the need to pile on more. Just as by the same logic I wouldn't have a problem giving money to charity without ensuring they'd definitely 'earned' it. It goes both ways.

 

[Athinira]

Disclaimer: Wall of text incoming. But prepare to be educated.

Being and old internet pirate in my young days when i was still a teenager, i have made several observations on piracy and what people want. In general, what people want can be separated into 5 points (at individual levels per person obviously, since we all have different standards, budgets etc).

People want...
1) ...as much quality entertainment as possible...
2) ...as cheaply as possible...
3) ...as fast as possible...
4) ...as available/risk-free/limit free as possible...
5) ...as morally right as possible.

The more publishers fail to deliver on those points, the more people will pirate. I'm no fan of rampant piracy, but i do support the notion that you reap as you sow. If publishers on purpose fails to reasonably live up to the expectations above, i don't feel sorry for them being pirated.

Ways to satisfy the different points:

Spoiler: Point 1

Piracy typically delivers high-quality versions of your products. You should too!

- Deliver content relevant to your customer (artists, bands, genres they like etc.)

- Deliver content a polished product (well tested, well executed)

- Deliver it with no hassles

- Deliver a product many people can use (games with huge graphic requirements can't be played by people with older hardware)

- Deliver it in a quality that at the very least MATCHES that of a potentially pirated version (don't skip on video/audio quality etc.)

- Deliver quality content and services that piracy can't provide to the same degree (multiplayer, online services)

- Deliver content in multiple languages if possible. This is somewhat important for movies and games (you should at the very least cover the major languages like english, german, chinese, korean, spanish etc.), but even more important for educational reading material, since it's important for students to learn the scientific handles in their own language.

Spoiler: Point 2

It's hard to compete with piracy on price. However, you can still compete with it to a reasonable degree if you use a good and fair pricing system that makes the customer feel like you're treating them well, and makes sure you can keep up your revenue.

- Keep prices fair. Remember that traditional markets are controlled by supply and demand, and that piracy is like a competing supplier who is cheaper than you. Gauge the market, and recognize that sticking to a determined pricing system isn't necessarily relevant.

- Deliver attractive offers, bundles and sales in all aspects and genres of your industry (Steam sales anyone)?

- Prices should drop naturally over time as a product becomes dated

- Price differentiration! A popular and/or expensive product should for obvious reasons cost more than a cheaply produced or non-popular products (Indie games vs. AAA titles, high-profile music artists vs. upcoming artists, big-time vs. small-time movies)

- Some people want the ability to stream or rent content, rather than own it. Make sure to give them that option.

Spoiler: Point 3

Why do people camp GameStop when the new Call of Duty is out? Why do people camp electronic retailers when the new iPhone is out? Why do people pre-order a product they haven't tried (and possibly haven't even been reviewed or quality tested yet)?
It's simple: People want stuff here and now, as fast as possible.

- Give pre-order discounts (Steam does this). This helps ensuring sales early on.

- Don't make people wait for different versions of a product. One thing that helped out the movie industry versus piracy was reducing the length between a movie hitting the theaters and a movie hitting the shelves.

- Make sure your product launches have reasonable stock (this includes bandwidth for digital launches so everyone can download and play as soon as possible, and with reasonable stability). Don't leave a percentage of your customers hanging!

- Pre-download of content (like Steam) can be a great idea

- And finally: GET RID OF GEOGRAPHIC RESTRICTIONS ON CONTENT!
This is basically the equivalent of meeting two kids, giving one of them a Lollipop and telling the other kid to go away. If people in America can purchase a product that people in Europe want, then people in Europe aren't going to wait around for months (or in some cases, years) until you think them worthy of that product. They are gonna be going to the internet and fetching the pirated version, straigth from American servers. Period! If you launch a digital entertainment product, launch it (approximately) simultaneously over the world. At most, try to aim for no more than 1-2 weeks between releases in different parts of the world.

Spoiler: Point 4

People want safety and assurances when they purchase your product, and they also want purchasing the product to be a seamless experience. One of the great strengths of piracy is that there is no strings attached (pirated products can last forever) and it comes with a high amount of convenience to just download -> crack -> play. You need to match that.

- Use a reasonable DRM scheme for your product. DRM isn't the mother of all evils (even though some people might try to convince you of that), but there is definitely a limit to how annoying DRM should be. Particularly activation limits or any other feature that limits the BUYER compared to the pirate is bad. The thing Arkham Asylum did, where the DRM secretly tries to break the game for the pirate (and the legal buyer doesn't feel a thing) are worth trying out. Always-online DRM for single player games is also worth avoiding. People should be able to play their games offline, including playing multi-player over LAN.

- Provide demos, trailers, gameplay videos etc. so people know what to expect, and - in the case of games - know if their system is capable of handling the product.

--- Give your buyers reasonable safety-assurances and convenience:
- If they lose the product, they should be able to redownload it.

- If they buy a new computer (or reformat their old one), they shouldn't have to worry about activation limits.

- If they want to bring the game to a friends house and play it on a different computer, they should be able to.

- If you use a DRM scheme, make sure it isn't reliant on activation servers you might take down sooner or later (or if you absolutely have to, make sure you ahead of time develop a patch that removes the online DRM part of the game relying on those servers. If you're running an online service, it's not a requirement, but definitely a move of goodwill to release tools that makes people able to run their own equivalent service if you ever plan to shut yours down).

- If you suspect they are cheating online (which isn't the equivalent of them actually doing that, it might be your anti-cheat that is faulty), then only ban them from the online portion of the game so they can still play the single player.

- Don't extend bans beyond the scope of the game. If you're running a service like Origin (yes I'm picking on it for a reason), don't do stuff like making forum bans affect the customers ability to play. If Valve catches someone cheating online, they only ban them from the online portion of their games (and only on VAC-enabled servers). They don't remove the games from their steam account or ban the account altogether.

Bottom line is that if the customer doesn't feel safe purchasing your product, well then guess what: They won't. The customer cares about how they spend their dollar. And if you remove a customers ability to play in a way that the customer feels is unfair, then you've broken that trust, and they are probably gonna pirate your games in the future rather than purchase them.

- Remember to make purchasing easy. One-click buy (iTunes Store), fast download speeds, fast and easy access to relevant content, a manageable shopping site are all factors that weigh in. If you make buying a very easy experience, then people tend to go shop-crazy and forget the price.

- Make sure that there is an appropriate platform for your product. One of the biggest challenges the E-book industry has faced is that there hasn't really been a competent and convenient platform widely available that makes reading E-books enjoyable. This has only just become a reality in the last couple of years thanks to tablets (iPad, Amazon Kindle Fire, Google Nexus 7 etc. I'm actually purchasing a Nexus 7 in about two weeks).

Spoiler: Point 5

Believe it or not, most people know that just pirating for the sake pirating is wrong. When those people still pirate, however, it is because they feel that if publishers/sellers are acting like assholes, and since two people can play that game, they can be assholes too and pirate your stuff.

- Make sure you practice and preach the four points i just went through. You treat customers fairly and provide them with quality, chances are they will be more likely to treat you fairly too and provide you with money.

- If people like you, then the chance of them cheating you is minimized. Remember that in many cases, pirated versions of a product can match (or outmatch) you in point 1-4. Point 5 here, however, is where you have the option to actually outmatch piracy and appeal to the conscience side of people. If people don't like you, they won't listen to their conscience. Consider your reputation - not only in customer service, but also in the quality of the product you deliver.

Valve is an example of a company that has a great reputation because of the great service Steam provides and the quality of their games, while EA and Activision are examples of companies with a terrible reputations. BioWare and Blizzard are examples of companies who have a reputation for putting out great games, a factor which helps greatly in regards to people who pre-order or make day-1 purchases (although many people will argue that the quality has been steadily dropping for the last few years, particularly for BioWare).

Spoiler: The secret 6th point!

This secret point deals less with customers/pirates, and more with business practices (or: how to handle your own money).

Particularly the games industry has had this problem. One of the big problems that the game industry faces is that they spend so much on developing the games with expensive graphics, expensive trailers etc. that they have to sell huge amounts of games to break even (often more than a million copies) at a steep price, and then they complain about piracy when most people didn't purchase their $60 mediocre AAA title because a better title was available - or because they actually needed the money to pay for something else, like food and their rent.

Case in point is that you have to consider the market. Why do you think the indie game market is booming at the moment? Because there is a high demand for cheap games with quality gameplay and entertainment value (bang for the buck). Also, the market for medium sized games (meaning games who have more weight behind them than indie, but isn't AAA titles and typically launch with a price of around $20) is just an empty void waiting to be filled.

If everyone makes AAA games, then customers can't afford them all, and will resort to piracy to play as many as they want - and even if they don't resort to piracy, they still aren't gonna have the money to pay for your game and will either skip it (or wait until it's on sale, in which case you can at least make SOME money of it). Consider the market, consider the demand vs. the supply, and perhaps try to aim for making a quality game on a smaller budget that people can afford. Consider focusing on core qualities (for games, that is gameplay, and to a certain degree story with good characters) rather than things that are just the tip of the Iceberg (graphics).

The movie industry has known this for years, which is why we have B-movies (like Steven Seagal action movies going straigth to Video/DVD for cheap prices) and big-time movies side by side. Why the gaming industry hasn't caught up on this is beyond me.

Obviously different points weigh differently for different people. People on a large budget cares less about point 2 than people on a small budget. People with a big conscience will care more about point 5 than people with no conscience (sometimes to the degree that people will actually pirate just because they imagine pissing the big bad industry off). Some people care more about the safety of their product (point 4) than others, for example people who have put a lot of money into Steam or Origin and don't want their account banned. This is why it is important to consider all of the points above - or at the very least as many as possible. That's how you will capture most CUSTOMERS who actually buy your product.

For the record, the different industries fail at the following points:
- Music industry fails at point 2. All music costs approximately the same, no matter if it is a superstar artist like Lady Gaga, or some unknown artist in an unknown genre. There is rarely any big sales, and the pricing is totally off considering that the supply of music (including free music) has absolutely exploded in the last 5-6 years. Finally there isn't any natural price drop over time (if you go to iTunes Store and purchase music that came out 5 years ago, it typically still costs the same as it did back then). On the plus side, the music industry has more or less stopped using DRM, streaming services are now widely available, and purchasing music is extremely easy once you have set up accounts on the different stores.

- Movie (and television) industry fails at point 3 (and to some degree point 4 and point 2). They use rigorous geographical restrictions on online movie/television services to people outside of the US (of which there is a limited number to begin with), so people overseas get content way too late. Renting is limited, and in addition to use some services, you often need specialized hardware (like the Apple TV box). While movies are released worldwide relatively fast in both theaters and on the shelves, TV Shows are often released way too slow, are way too expensive (considering their lowered budget cost and episodic approach) outside of the US - If they are even released at all. On the plus side, movies are now out relatively fast, and are of generally good quality (same is the screens they are played on), and since movies take up a lot of space (even if hard drive prices are low, some people don't want to deal with having many hard drives), buying retail in the form of DVD's and Blue-Ray are still great options.

- The games industry fails at point 6 (go read it), and to some degree point 2 and 4.

- The E-book industry fails at the availability part of point 4 (or rather, they don't "fail", but until now they have been lacking a proper platform for their product which is only just becoming mainstream), and they also still fail at providing their products in a reasonable volume of translations, at least regarding scientific/educational topics.

- Many companies in ALL categories fail drastically in point 5.

There. I hope you all feel more clever now.

Oh and Captcha, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about!!!

 

[Winthrop]

Not being released in your country is a big one. Surprised you didn't have broken/lost disk on there. If I lost a disk for some old game I see no issue with pirating.

 

[The Lunatic]

Yeah, if you have no other way, then nobody loses.

I think it can be trivializes too.

I mean, if 2 Million people have downloaded a game, and you decide to as well.

You're really not hurting anyone at that stage, it's gone beyond the point of being a meaningful amount.

Not to say you should, but, being one in two million or something means very little.

 

[Athinira]

There's a reason those people are weathly. They make something people want.

"I think these people have enough money" does not give you the right to be a thief. Stealing is illegal. And no amount of bullshit self-justification is going to protect you from a charge of copyright infringment.

Except copyright infringement is still not thieving (and isn't considered so by law either), and no amount of bullsh*t laws is going to help the entertainment industry profit if the laws can't be enforced on a grand scale.

If they want to make sure they make money, crying over piracy isn't the way to do it. Following some of the advices i gave in my last post is.

 

[4RM3D]

Surprised you didn't have broken/lost disk on there. If I lost a disk for some old game I see no issue with pirating.

I didn't think of everything. Also, it has never happened to me. I always take very good care of my game and movie collection, unlike some people I know.

I think it can be trivializes too.

I mean, if 2 Million people have downloaded a game, and you decide to as well.

You're really not hurting anyone at that stage, it's gone beyond the point of being a meaningful amount.

Not to say you should, but, being one in two million or something means very little.

One in two million is very little, but the argument itself is faulty. If everyone would start pirating then the media will either cease to exist from lack of profit or the business model for that media will change and by that extend probably the media itself.

It doesn't matter if you are one of two million or one of two. You should take responsibility for your own actions and not hide behind numbers. Not saying that you aren't taking responsibility; just pointing out the fallacy.

"I think these people have enough money" does not give you the right to be a thief. Stealing is illegal. And no amount of bullshit self-justification is going to protect you from a charge of copyright infringment.

But piracy is not stealing. It's copyright infringement, that's different.

 

[deathzero021]

Here's what i always thought of online "piracy":
1. it's not f***ing piracy! it's file-sharing.
2. You are not stealing from someone forcibly.
3. it's sharing something the same way you share a movie with your friends at your house.
4. duplication has existed for a very long time. photocopy a book, write down notes from a book, record cassette tapes from the radio or make a copy, burn CD's and record television with VHS tapes. Why it's a problem today? i don't know.
5. Nobody is making money off of sharing so i don't see how it's "copy-right infringement"
6. companies are just being douchebags and thinking they can make more money if they fight against file-sharing.
7. you should never have criminal charges for such a thing.

 

[The Lunatic]

One in two million is very little, but the argument itself is faulty. If everyone would start pirating then the media will either cease to exist from lack of profit or the business model for that media will change and by that extend probably the media itself.

It doesn't matter if you are one of two million or one of two. You should take responsibility for your own actions and not hide behind numbers. Not saying that you aren't taking responsibility; just pointing out the fallacy.

But not everyone will.

If it ever got to that stage, nothing would be released in the first place.


But, people are always going to buy things.

This is why music still exists, despite something like 90% piracy rate, people still buy it.

I'm just saying that, at 2 Million pirated copies, you're not going to change a thing, the game has likely ran it's course and sold all the copies it's going to sell, and been pirated the most amount of times it's going to be pirated it.


Not to say you shouldn't buy it, but, regardless of your actions at that stage, you're going to get the same thing either way.

If you enjoy a game, you should always seek to fund the developer, however. This is without doubt.

 

[In Search of Username]

No. Not in ANY case. And for a single reason that nobody seems to notice.

There are a lot of reasons people will give to justify piracy, such as price, business practices personal taste of the choice of game/film/ect. But if you're still pirating the game/film to play/watch it, it renders all your reasons meangless because it's still worth owning despite the flaws. And it's it's worth owning, it's worth paying for.

If you're going to pirate, then pirate. But admit that you're doing it for the same reason everyone else is doing. Because you don't want to pay for anything. Don't pretend you're some Robin Hood standing up for consumer rights, when all you are is a thief.

Because none of your justifications are going to have any merit if the police come knocking at your door. And contrary to popular belief, you don't get to shirk the law when it becomes bothersome to you.

How about the argument that, for example, the band you're illegally downloading music from already have far more money than you will ever see in your life, whereas you, the person downloading the music, may not have much money at all? How can you possibly argue that they need your money more than you do? They're not going to struggle because they don't have it. They're not even going to notice the difference.

Honestly, I think the only time you can argue against piracy is when you're talking about some indie game or some obscure music made by people who will really be affected by your piracy.

No. Being wealthy does not make your ownership of your music/game/film any less valid. If you want music, pay for it. If you don't have a lot of money, don't buy the music. It's not "don't buy it and steal it" it's "do without." Stealing a big Triple-A game is just as wrong as stealing an indie game. Rich people have the right to their intellectual property just like your or I do.

Once again, nobody needs entertainment products. Stealing a loaf of bread to feed your starving family is one thing, but music and games are not something you have a right to. They are luxuries you indulge in if you have the resources to do it. The wealth of the provider is irrelevant, it does not make the effort they put into creating their work any less valuable.

How can the music I want to listen to be an unnecessary luxury while piling even more money on top of an already vast fortune is perfectly reasonable as long as it's 'earned'? Your idea of morality must be very different from mine. Everyone needs to make a living, but if you have so much money that any contribution from me becomes meaningless, I don't feel the need to pile on more. Just as by the same logic I wouldn't have a problem giving money to charity without ensuring they'd definitely 'earned' it. It goes both ways.

There's a reason those people are weathly. They make something people want.

"I think these people have enough money" does not give you the right to be a thief. Stealing is illegal. And no amount of bullshit self-justification is going to protect you from a charge of copyright infringment.

Yeah, and now they have all that money so we should move on to giving it to someone else who makes something people want but hasn't been as successful yet.

Well yeah. We're talking about our personal morality here, none of us are under the impression we'd be able to argue against the law no matter how wrong we think it is. That doesn't make me feel any differently, nor should it.

 

[Genocidicles]

I believe it is justified unless the person who you're stealing from is an indie musician or author.

Otherwise the majority of the money is just going to the publishers, who are unnecessary middlemen in this day and age.

It's not so cut and dry with games or movies though, as there are huge teams making those, and they need funding from a publisher/studio. So unless the publisher/studio is an asshole (With awful DRM, or trying to force through crap like SOPA) it's not ok to pirate their stuff.

 

[4RM3D]

Here's what i always thought of online "piracy":
1. it's not f***ing piracy! it's file-sharing.
2. You are not stealing from someone forcibly.
3. it's sharing something the same way you share a movie with your friends at your house.
4. duplication has existed for a very long time. photocopy a book, write down notes from a book, record cassette tapes from the radio or make a copy, burn CD's and record television with VHS tapes. Why it's a problem today? i don't know.
5. Nobody is making money off of sharing so i don't see how it's "copy-right infringement"
6. companies are just being douchebags and thinking they can make more money if they fight against file-sharing.
7. you should never have criminal charges for such a thing.

3. Amongst friends? Yes. On the Internet? No. Even before the rise of the Internet, it was not allowed to show a copyrighted movie in a public area (e.g. school), without consent.
4. Duplication has existed for a long time, yes. But when we went digital, duplication became a lot easier and cheaper and most important of all, it became exactly like the original product without any loss in quality.
5. That is not true. Torrent sites make loads of money. Also, copyright infringement says nothing about making money. If you share a copyrighted video for free, it's still copyright infringement.
7. True

 

[Olas]

Can piracy be justified? Yes. People justify it all the time. Does that make it right? Probably not. Does that make it any less illegal? Definitely not. And it should matter that it's illegal. Thinking that you are above the law and therefore that legality shouldn't apply to you sets a dangerous precedent. There are plenty of rules I disagree with, but I put up with them because I value law and order in society in general. If you think you should be able to just break any law you don't personally agree with you're essentially an anarchist.


Yet again the poll results are giving me the finger. Fuck you poll. t(-_-t)

 

[Reaper195]

I only pirate stuff if I can't legitimately buy a copy (And if it's a game or movie, fuck buying it from overseas, since it's always region locked), or if I have no money. At the moment, I've got no job and I;ve downloaded a fair amount of stuff. The moment I get a job and some decent money rolling in and bills paid, I plan on buying those things.

 

[crazyrabbits]

No, its not a strawman argument. Murder is seen as worse or more offensive then piracy. If it can be justified then surly piracy can be more easily justified.

Also, just because something isn't available to you doesn't entitle you to be able to get a copy. The copyright owner has the right to say 'fuck it' and keep anyone from every getting a copy. 'I can't get it otherwise' is not a proper justification in and of itself.

Yes, it is a strawman, and your follow-up justification is incorrect. Murders, by and large, are much more publicized than piracy, which (most of the time) is small-scale in nature. I don't know of anyone who would rationalize an argument that someone who takes a life/multiple lives is on the same level as someone sharing or copying existing data, which is not deleted in the latter case. It's a fallacy and strawman, so you need to stop bringing it up, because you're wrong. Plain and simple.

As far as your second point goes, if the copyright owner deliberately doesn't make their product available, and there's a demand from the public for it, it's their loss if people download it. The copyright owner is simply not capitalizing on potential profit. I'm not justifying it. I'm just pointing out that people will gravitate towards the method of distribution (legal/illegal) which is the easiest to access. If the owner doesn't make/doesn't want to have their product available, it's their problem when people download it.

 

[Quiet Stranger]

Yes, if you can't find what you're looking for anymore, like really old games or something they no longer sell in stores.