Poll: Civility of discussion with others on the site.

[Josh123914]

This has been bugging me for months now, and in the past week or so I've seen more and more users with accounts from at least pre-2012 that share the sentiment that there is an increase in debating that occurs (particularly in GID an R&P sections) where sides have become more hostile to one another, use fallacies or strawmen or false generalizations, what have you.
The rules of the site make insults an offense, but insinuations and baiting okay.

We've always had site-wide issues, be it March Mayhem drama, the Mass Effect 3 Ending, Captchas, but my greatest worry is that the negative aspects of these things are seeping into other topics, and making the forums generally more combative.

Am I going crazy? For my first few years on the site I paid little mind to Religion and Politics, but from my experience even subjects such as Israel / Palestine could retain some level of civility. Perhaps I've become jaded from browsing threads on [a particular topic], but I'd like to know other people's opinions.

 

[Dalek Caan]

I spend most of time in the Game/Off-Topic forums and from what I've seen it depends on the topic in question whether or not people start acting more aggressive towards others. Usually things like Sexism, Racism, Incest and that Gamer-Gate thing seem to set people off the quickest.

So yeah, there has been more hostility for a while now but thankfully the fact that it only happens in certain threads and the mods are active enough to put anyone who goes to far in their place quickly keeps it in check.

 

[Supernova1138]

There certainly has been an uptick in hostilities in the past year ever since Gamergate scandal exploded and created a great schism and started the gaming community's equivalent to the Thirty Years War, just replace Church Corruption with Journalistic Corruption and arguments about Christian dogma with arguments about Feminist dogma. Since the owners of the Escapist chose not to ban discussion of the topic or purge one side or the other from the forums like most other gaming sites, this place has become one of the battlefields in one of the longest Internet conflicts I have ever seen. Expect the conflict to continue for the foreseeable future until everyone is finally tired out, withdraws to their echo chambers, and spend the Internet equivalent of the next few centuries hating each other.

If you're looking to avoid getting caught in the crossfire, just stay in Gaming Discussion or Off Topic (provided you avoid anything that discusses social issues eg. sexism, racism, -blank-phobia, etc)

 

[runic knight]

No, you are right, it is far more hostile now than it was. Part seems to be more tolerance for behaviors that in the past would have resulted in strikes if not bans. Aggressive sniping, flame baiting, users trying to get others banned, topic derailment... These were never as bad as they are now. While certainly gamergate as a controversy is responsible for the divide in the forums, I think most comes from the feeling that any sort of shitposting is acceptable if the end result harms the users of the other side. For some reason the mods allow this and end up weapons of the conflict, the "win" conditions being the banning of the opposing side as opposed to the discussion of different perspective.

I'd be nice to have discussions without them devolving into sniping and derailing that get the threads locked, but sadly some just want to see the conversation ended to badly they actively seek to close it down one thread at a time with such garbage.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Yep, and I think we all know the topics in question, too.

It has always been the case that contentious subjects had more "legs" than congenial ones, but that has become particularly true in recent months. Rather than being bemused at bickering, more often than not I'm coming out of certain threads legitimately concerned about the mental health of some of the participants.

That kind of combativeness is certainly not limited to The Escapist forums, of course, it's an internet wide phenomenon. Outrage culture demands constant warfare. There must be an "us" and a "them", and each side pollinates the other with endless entreaties to further conflict, so that the ol' dopamine will keep flowing. There will always be some fresh atrocity uncovered on social media that must be poured over and dissected, examined for how terrible it exposes "them" as being, and how vindicated "we" are in turn.

It's really very exhausting.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Eh, dunno. Way back when people were complaining about how awful this place was, and with much the same complaints, or worse.

 

[Vendor-Lazarus]

There is indeed a distinct lack of civility on these boards at the moment.
I lurked for some time before I joined and I remember being too afraid to post because the mods were very vigilant and active.
Most of the warnings were for low-content posts though and it's a relief that it has been let up, but it seems to have strayed far too much in the other direction and blatant derailing, baiting and posting in bad faith goes unpunished.
Especially for some, who seem to be very tight with the mods and can talk their way out of almost any warning.
Even acting like a mod doesn't seem to get a warning.

I don't think it came about because of THAT topic but it certainly brought it to the foreground.

 

[Vendor-Lazarus]

Well it's what happens when the Escapist bends over backwards to accommodate Gamergate.

Kiiiind of. If by "bending over backwards" you mean being one of the few sites not banning and censoring anything to do with GamerGate.

The Escapist seemingly decided, back when GG was about harassing Quinn for having sex, that this was the audience they wanted.

Just because you repeat something again and again does not make it true.

It's no surprises that this place has become more hostile because of that.

No, because of This ^ I would say.

 

[CrystalShadow]

I'm not so sure. See, I've been here a long time, and had my fair share of discussions that really brought out a lot of horrible behaviour in people even 6 years ago.

On the other hand, I've found an increasing tendency towards extremely polarised views, especially on some subjects.
And while I'm not a good judge (because I've become more sensitive, and much easier to upset in th last 6 years. As a defensive reaction I now tend to abandon a 'discussion' at even the tiniest hint of anything unpleasant.)

Still, it does feel to me like, while the extreme topics are no worse than they ever were, the ability to have a civil, or at least, vaguely calm discussion about any subject at all seems to have gotten much worse.
To the point that I find the only thing not likely to turn into a horrid, nasty argument (insofar as those fit around the moderation rules), are topics that are basically so silly, that it's impossible to even have an argument about them except as a joke of some kind.

I don't know if I've changed, or if everything has, but I do know it's put me off trying to discuss much of anything on these forums.

 

[Vendor-Lazarus]

Well it's what happens when the Escapist bends over backwards to accommodate Gamergate.

Kiiiind of. If by "bending over backwards" you mean being one of the few sites not banning and censoring anything to do with GamerGate.

But props to you for admitting the Quinnconspiracy was also part of GG. Most vehemently deny it in the hopes people don't have memories that stretch back a few months.

If you had just read past that first quote section to the next, or included it in your quote of my response you would have noticed that I did no such thing.

It was not the start of GamerGate but it was a prelude. That said, it was not about harassing her for sex. As you well know.

Let me thank you for the insightful responses so far and call it a day so as not to derail this topic further.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Yes, kinda. There certainly seems to be less levity in the forums and more questioning of motivation. Probably the most obvious change is the end of Poe's Law Pink. Apparently every statement that used to be in PLP is just said straight now :\

 

[The Lunatic]

Some people are just dicks who want to harass others. Unfortunately, the rules are set up in such a way that it can't really be dealt with. So, we have a forum where groups exist who's only purpose is to harass certain members of the forums. We have certain members of the forums who follow other members around and try to antagonise them as much as possible, and all as long as it doesn't reach a certain criteria of the rules, it's completely okay.

Rising above it, and claiming to be better than such things will get you nowhere and certainly won't stop them.

Giving in and censoring yourself in order to avoid such people, or posting less is just silencing yourself due to bullying, and nobody wants that.

So, really all you end up with is a forum where two groups of people try beat the other in a contest as to whoever can make the best veiled insult.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Well, look at the thread so far.

Draw your own conclusions.

I'd say it's one whole hell of a lot more...acidic than it was when I was lurking back in '09. Nakedly so, anyway, as there's always been a bit of the passive aggressive, pretentious stuff floating around here. I mean, that's sort of been part of the site's identity for a while now to outside communities. It's just been dialed up to 11 in recent months.

It's gotten a lot more direct? But direct without actually being direct enough to warrant moderator action. The nebulous nature of the rules has led to folks exploiting the gaps and, in general, being baiting, trolling assholes up to the point where it's 'acceptable' because they've either spent time looking at other poster behavior or taken a few warnings to test the waters.

I mean, I've seen some meeeeeeeeeeeean stuff hereabouts, just, ya know, not bluntly stated.

As I've said on multiple occasions, I'd rather someone just call me a prick than spend several paragraphs inferring that I'm a lying sociopath or something.

The ME3 debacle seemed to have kicked the proverbial hornet's nest, but the GG stuff? Man. Set fire to said nest and drop kicked the mother.

With all that said? I don't really envy the mods here.

Gotta be a perpetual pain in the ass to root through paragraph upon paragraph of thinly veiled bile.

BUT...

That's mainly just certain subjects, which is par for the course. The rest of the forum? Seems a lot more relaxed by comparison.

...Or, alternatively, we're all just jerks.

The jerkiest jerks, of course. Wouldn't want to be second best at what we do, ya know.

 

[Bat Vader]

Well it's what happens when the Escapist bends over backwards to accommodate Gamergate.

Over the years there have been a lot of various debates or events, ones about religion or various other controversial topics, but GG is the only one where I've known of people getting harassing PM's when they spoke out against GG.

The Escapist seemingly decided, back when GG was about harassing Quinn for having sex, that this was the audience they wanted. Hell, the rules were even changed so less people in the big GG thread would get banned.

It's no surprises that this place has become more hostile because of that.

People would have brought it up anyway whether if it was against the rules or not. Having it's own sub-forum means that the people who want to discuss it can discuss it and the people that don't can just ignore it. It's a win-win situation for everyone. Especially for apathetic neutrals like me.

I have seen users on both sides get suspended and banned for breaking the rules. People don't get special treatment just because they belong to one side or another. If they can't or won't follow the rules they can go take their propaganda somewhere else.

 

[CrystalShadow]

Well, considering someone outright insulted me directly (if not very aggressively. ) quite recently over something incredibly trivial. (and I might add, it wasn't an insult directed at me by anyone I had quoted or otherwise aimed anything at... Just a random bystander picking on something I said for no apparent reason... >_<)

I mean, seriously, that's a new low. -_-
Usually they try and draw you into some kind of argument by stating something stupid or irritating, but that still kind of resembles an actual argument.

This? This was just an outright insult, just said using weirdly neutral wording.
That's...

I really don't know anymore... I wouldn't have said this place has changed that much, but this... Is a first.

There is indeed a distinct lack of civility on these boards at the moment.
I lurked for some time before I joined and I remember being too afraid to post because the mods were very vigilant and active.
Most of the warnings were for low-content posts though and it's a relief that it has been let up, but it seems to have strayed far too much in the other direction and blatant derailing, baiting and posting in bad faith goes unpunished.
Especially for some, who seem to be very tight with the mods and can talk their way out of almost any warning.
Even acting like a mod doesn't seem to get a warning.

I don't think it came about because of THAT topic but it certainly brought it to the foreground.

Huh. It's worrying to see something like this though. I mean, it may or may not be true in some cases.
Though... Having gone through an appeal once ages ago, and hearing a lot from the mods not too long ago about what they actually do... The appeals aren't handled by the mods.
In principle, being ... On friendly terms with the mods shouldn't help you much with appeals.

I dunno. I guess I shouldn't get involved with a point like this.
After all, I know several of the current mods. I'm not sure I'd say they're close friends, but we do all sort of... Have many common friends here... So if you look at it from the perspective of group dynamics... Well in any event, that can just happen to you one day, you know?
These mods I know weren't mods when I got to know them. They were just regular forum users, who I happened to know for various reasons.
It actually was quite a surprise to see they'd been made mods all of a sudden. Totally didn't see it coming.

Do I expect they'd show any kind of favouritism towards me? No I don't think they would. And I really wouldn't want them to either. Because that's just not OK.
If I were to expect anything at all that you might call 'special treatment' out of that (and even this I wouldn't expect, honestly) it's that they'd PM me if they saw me behaving badly.
And honestly, while that might seem unfair, in some ways (if it were to happen. Which I doubt it ever would, for several reasons), but really, to some extent having a friend tell you what you're doing isn't right is often more effective than having some anonymous judgement.
Most people tend to have a higher regard of the opinions of their friends after all.

Still, it worries me that this kind of sentiment exists around here. (also the one about mods being used as 'weapons'). It doesn't need to be true to cause a lot of damage.
After all, if people don't trust the mods around here that's... Going to make any toxic situations seem even worse...