Poll: Cochlear Implants are a...bad thing? (About Deafness and Wikipedia)

[Payned]

We actually had a discussion about something similar to this in one my lectures at uni. There's a treatment involving fertilising human ovums in vitro and running genetic tests on the zygotes to determine which of these have less risk of a particular disease for subsequent implantation into a womb. The lecturer had a case where a deaf couple approached her and wanted to select FOR deafness. As a class we gave arguments against doing so to which the lecturer countered with arguments in favour of it (which the deaf couple used on her).

It was very interesting, but needless to say the treatment did not go ahead.

 

[teebeeohh]

this is like trying to force schools not to teach children certain parts of human knowledge because it clashes with your believe system. or trying to prevent your children learning how to think and articulate opinions for themselves because your believes rely on not questioning things.

if they think their culture is wroth preserving than they should do what everybody else does: find people at or above the age of consent who are interested, teach them sign language and in a big ceremony use fireworks and a special knife to destroy their hearing.

 

[Phasmal]

I'm hard of hearing, but not by very much- I can't sign (well, I can do the alphabet, and simple things like `happy` or `day` but the only full sentance I can sign is `Sorry, I missed that, again please`). So I don't really know about deaf culture, it's possible I could lose more of my hearing, and I would wear a hearing aid if that happened.

But if a deaf person doesn't want a cochlear implant, what's the big deal? It's their body.
Also, cochlear implants don't always fix that much, and then you can end up not-quite-hearing and not-quite-deaf and maybe not fit in either of those communities.

As a hard of hearing person, I know that completely hearing people can be patronising. Most of the time I don't tell people I am hard of hearing because they spend the rest of the conversation `TALKING. LIKE. THIS.` and then they just forget anyway.

 

[SpectacularWebHead]

Many people in Deaf culture [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaf_culture] do not see deafness as a disability and so find the idea of needing it repaired offensive.

...I think those people, whilst they have the right to do what they want, are being a bit thick. There is no way that only having four senses, a lack of balance that often comes with deafness and various other problems that occur in moderate to severe deafness is not a disability. It makes no sense. I say that they can do what they want, but they shouldn't stop people who do want to hear having the implants.

 

[Felix Bartsch]

Interestingly enough, the blind community has similar issues with retinal implants. I discussed that issue with my blind grandfather and basically, the loss of one sense creates a cohesive community among those people. He does understand why they wouldn't want to lose the thing that makes them unique as a group, but really doesn't see(hehe) why anyone wouldn't want access to all possible sense.
Essentially they've created a group out of their shared experiences and are afraid of losing it in the same way minorities or religious people form groups based on their shared experiences. I would guess that a genetic treatment to change someone's skin color permanently would piss off both the KKK and the NAACP. Only in the case of disability-based groups, one could argue that the treatment makes life objectively nicer instead of just being a choice of which group to identify with.

And one quick thing I'd like to say as a neuroscience major with a mentor who helped design the first cochlear implants: invest in cochlear implants. Earbuds are literally destroying the auditory receptors of millions of people who have their iPods running too loudly and in the next ten years that industry is going to start to make a killing repairing own damaged hearing.
Also, don't listen to loud music for too long without taking a break. Seriously.

 

[Heronblade]

The "deaf culture" thing is a byproduct of the way hearing disabled individuals cope with their situation. It is far easier to deal with their issue from within a tight nit group of people going through the same experience. Nothing wrong with that, a support group can vastly improve one's life. The problems in cases like this pop up when the group decides that the attributes that make them disabled compared to others are not a hindrance, but something to be proud of instead.

 

[Able Seacat]

As a hard of hearing person, I know that completely hearing people can be patronising. Most of the time I don't tell people I am hard of hearing because they spend the rest of the conversation `TALKING. LIKE. THIS.` and then they just forget anyway.

I bet that's a pain. I've heard some people say to a hard of hearing person 'you're so lucky you can't hear this awful music' thinking nothing of it but you wouldn't say to a blind person 'your so lucky you can't see this picture'. Guess that's why they call hearing impairment the invisible disability.

 

[Heronblade]

But if a deaf person doesn't want a cochlear implant, what's the big deal? It's their body.
Also, cochlear implants don't always fix that much, and then you can end up not-quite-hearing and not-quite-deaf and maybe not fit in either of those communities.

As a hard of hearing person, I know that completely hearing people can be patronising. Most of the time I don't tell people I am hard of hearing because they spend the rest of the conversation `TALKING. LIKE. THIS.` and then they just forget anyway.

If a deaf person doesn't want an implant, that's fine, I would wonder why, but it is their choice.

That is not however the issue in question. In the OP's example, we have deaf people protesting giving such implants to deaf children, on the basis of it threatening deaf culture. Choosing to live with a disability is one thing, effectively forcing others to live with it as well is quite another, particularly for the sake of such a vague construct.

 

[NLS]

Disclaimer: The only knowledge I have about these things are what I just read on Wikipedia, so I made this thread to ask questions about the criticisms therein so I can learn more about them. Yay run-ons.

Right, so, I'm hearing the word Cochlear Implant more and more, and I also vaguely remember a really boring girl give a really boring 10 minuate speech about these.

1st question; What are they? (I know they allow you to hear, though it's distorted and needs to be put in at a young age)

2nd question; WTF Wikipedia? (Taken verbatim from Wikipedia)

Much of the strongest objection to cochlear implants has come from the deaf community, which consists largely of pre-lingually deaf people whose first language is a signed language. For some in the Deaf community, cochlear implants are an affront to their culture, which as they view it, is a minority threatened by the hearing majority.

...What? Could someone please explain to me what the Deaf Culture is and why it's 'threatened'? Do I have a Diabetes culture I'm not aware of?

Okay, first off: Wikipedia isn't advocating for or against Cochlear implants. It is just pointing out that there has been an ongoing debate between those who are for Cochlear implants, and those who are against it. Asking "WTF Wikipedia?" isn't getting you anywhere, as it is not Wikipedias fault the controversy exists. And to answer your first question: Maybe you should have paid some attention to that "boring 10 minute speech" or perhaps actually read the Wikipedia article?
The deaf culture exists, yes. I'll just list some key-words: Over 200 languages, a written sign alphabet, schools, social gatherings, artists, differing norms and beliefs, access to closed captioning and subtitles in television/movies/games, the attitude that they do not need to feel ashamed over what they are. Without this culture, they would just be "in the way" and "disabled", yet they've managed to take care of themselves and live side-bye-side with normal people thanks to a culture that provides this.

...Hence they are implanted before the recipients can decide for themselves, on the assumption that deafness is a disability.

Which is a pretty valid assumption to make, I'd think.

Deaf culture critics argue that the cochlear implant and the subsequent therapy often become the focus of the child's identity at the expense of a possible future deaf identity and ease of communication in sign language, and claim that measuring the child's success only by their mastery of hearing and speech will lead to a poor self-image as "disabled" (because the implants do not produce normal hearing) rather than having the healthy self-concept of a proudly deaf person.

If I chopped it off at identity, that would sound like the critics are jealous. They seem to be making some wild assumptions as well, implying that all hypothetically implanted children will have low self esteem, and non-implanted kids will have high ones.

'Will lead to a poor self-image' Quick show of hands, how many people knew regular people, particularly girls, who had low self-esteem in High school?

That's the part I don't get, why do they assume having some hearing is emotionally worse than having no hearing? Both mark you as disabled, but one would make you less disabled.

Having an implant puts you with the rest of the kids. This means you'll be at an disadvantage compared to "normal" people. That list of benefits I listed that is part of Deaf culture? You'll be likely to not have access to it either. So instead of being fully Deaf, and having the support and culture that comes with it, or having "normal" hearing, you'll instead be a place inbetween where you don't only get the advantages of one side, but also the disadvantages of both.

They are often isolated from other deaf children and from sign language (Spencer 2003).

Why. Why? I guess a more specific question is...No seriously, WHY?

The same reason a "normal" child is not taught sign language or brought into a Deaf community. If the implanted child is taught to speak and the supportive parents don't wish to learn it sign language then it's not either part of the Deaf community, but part of "normal" hard life where you'll be expected to speak and listen like everyone else.

Children do not always receive support in the educational system to fulfill their needs as they may require special education environments and Educational Assistants.

Ok, why is it the implant's fault for schools not equipped with basic special needs facilities? Special Ed teachers wouldn't have to work as differently as they would with a Deaf child, right?

The problem is, since the child is not fully deaf anymore, and is capable of hearing, it may be treated by some as just another ordinary person although with slightly bad hearing. The Deaf community and our society has co-existed and adapted each other quite well over time, but whereas Deaf people can easily be placed in Deaf schools and special programs, there may not be such a big framework for people with implants.

...Cochlear implants have been one of the technological and social factors implicated in the decline of sign languages in the developed world.

That's unfortunate, but if something becomes redundant shouldn't it be phased out? Although that does create a problem for non-implants.

Some of the more extreme responses from Deaf activists have labeled the widespread implantation of children as "cultural genocide"

Alright, I'll ask again: How is deafness a culture? Also, nobody is killing Deaf people by getting the implant, at worst it's just switching them to a different culture.

Again, see this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaf_culture . You can't just out-phase hundreds of languages spoken by millions worldwide just because a lucky few in the developed world can afford the high costs of these implants. Also note the bolded part, this does not mean every member of the Deaf community or those who oppose implants would go as far as to call it "cultural genocide". It is also not as literal as you might take it. They are simply stating that as the users of implants grow, the number of Deaf people that are part of the Deaf culture will shrink.

...some schools now are successfully integrating cochlear implants with sign language in their educational programs. However, some opponents of sign language education argue that the most successfully implanted children are those who are encouraged to listen and speak rather than overemphasize their visual sense.

Which makes sense to me; it's trading adeptness in Sign Language for increased oral skills. In a hearing world, being about to speak well is key. I'm not saying they shouldn't teach it, I think all the schools everywhere should, but they shouldn't put emphasis on it at the expense of what would be an undoubtedly more used skill.

So yeah, somebody tell me why this is bad. There's a poll as well.

I'll sum up that I don't think Cochlear implants are bad themselves. But I do understand that nobody likes seeing their culture split into more fractions and fewer "natives".

 

[AngloDoom]

This strikes me as similar to when homosexuality became more and more accepted and some individuals started wearing T-shirts and changing online images to something such as "GAY AND PROUD". It's growing pains, people are losing part of their identity as a culture that is considered disadvantaged by the general public: by removing that disadvantage I would argue it removes some of the novelty of belonging to that group.

The simple fact of the matter is that wider society is created n such a way as to take advantage of all of our sense - particularly sight and hearing - and so not having one of these senses is a disability.

If people don't want the implant, that's fair enough...I just hope that if there are deaf parents with a deaf child that they won't discourage them from at least trying better hearing out to see if they like it.

 

[alandavidson]

It's not a big deal, and up to the parents of the child, or the deaf individual, whether or not to get implants. I've known people with implants, and those without them. I sign, (it's a common form of communication in my family) so communication isn't an issue.

Many people don't sign, and that makes it very difficult for a deaf person to function in certain aspects of society. Lip reading is very difficult in low-light environments, or on a place like a train or bus. It (deafness) also makes things such as driving much more difficult, and dangerous.

It really is a personal matter. Implants are neutral. Those who want them can benefit greatly from them. Those who don't are still able to live their lives with relative ease.

 

[spartan231490]

Yet more proof that humans are A) selfish, and B) Bat shit crazy.

 

[Bestival]

I've been deaf in my right ear from birth, and a few years ago I got a BAHA (Bone Anchored Hearing Aid) and although it isn't the same quality of hearing I am very happy with it. I've always been way into music and having stereo sound finally be an option to me is great.

However, I've never let my handicap be my defining feature. Hell, usually I don't even tell people about it until I've known them for quite a while.
Sounds to me like those deaf folks are jealous that they never got this option as a child, but what they need to understand is that this technology is going to be improved more and more over the coming years, probably to a point where they as adults can also get them, and have damn near perfect hearing. I wonder if all those people will still claim the implants are evil, culture destroying, anti-minority weapons then... They probably will, because everyone's fucking crazy.

Also, growing up with a hearing problem led me to meeting quite a few other kids with hearing problems, including some fully deaf ones. One of these, a girl quite a bit younger than myself, got special hearing aides for her particular problem when she was around 10 or so. Up till that point her mother went with her to school every day to translate for the teacher, and the hearing aides made that no longer necessary. To her it meant freedom and normalcy, not the destruction of her culture or identity. Yes it's a good thing.

 

[MetalMagpie]

But if a deaf person doesn't want a cochlear implant, what's the big deal? It's their body.
Also, cochlear implants don't always fix that much, and then you can end up not-quite-hearing and not-quite-deaf and maybe not fit in either of those communities.

I think the issue is that cochlear implants only really work if put in very young. So waiting until the deaf person is an adult (and can make up their own mind) isn't an option. An individual with an implant can have it taken out once they're an adult if they want to be fully deaf.

Personally, I would definitely want to get my child an implant if they were born deaf. Not with the thought of making them "normal" (as they're never going to have normal hearing), but just so I wouldn't worry about their safety quite as much!

A deaf person can't hear shouting, car horns, fire alarms and all the other sound-based warning devices that keep us safe. Yes, some institutions have been very inclusive by introducing flashing lights and other alternate alarms. But when I see my child reach for a sharp knife, I still want to be able to yell to get their attention. Because my voice can get there a hell of a lot faster than my body can!

 

[McMullen]

It's a sad thing when you decide that a disability defines you, and missing a sense that most people have is pretty clearly a disability, regardless of what the deaf culture says.

But if a deaf person doesn't want a cochlear implant, what's the big deal? It's their body.
Also, cochlear implants don't always fix that much, and then you can end up not-quite-hearing and not-quite-deaf and maybe not fit in either of those communities.

Certainly. But the bigger issue here is that the deaf culture is trying to prevent prelingual children from receiving the implants. The big deal is that they're making the choice for someone else, not just themselves. Granted, whatever choice is made won't be the child's, but unless I'm completely misunderstanding something here, I'm pretty confident that giving a child a full set of senses is better than leaving them without one.

 

[AngelOfBlueRoses]

Deaf people DO NOT have a culture, what they have is a DISABILITY!
And hearing people can still talk with their hands, They're called Italians!

As a person who has been dating an Italian girl for four years now, your latter sentence is both hilarious AND true. I laughed and I'll be telling her this tonight when she gets home.

OT: As for Cochlear implants, my lover's younger brother has them and he still fits in fine with deaf culture. They're not a magic cure yet, but they help him out a lot at home. He's also very fluent in ASL and ESL.

Edit: Agh, I accidentally voted for the wrong option. >.<

 

[SckizoBoy]

I guess it's a case of the decision being understandable, but not justifiable.

While I'm definitely not advocating the prevention of kids getting the implant, you sort of have to see it from the point of view from the parent (who is invariably deaf him/herself) but has no possibility of getting the implant themselves. This is tremendously selfish, I know, but a great part of it comes from a fear that their child will, in some way, grow to resent them for their disability, as it becomes, all of whom concerned will be painfully aware of this, as this would extend to the child's ostensibly 'normal' friends to the parents' circle of deaf friends. A child who would otherwise be deaf, interacting as a normal youngster would, is more than enough to potentially drive a massive wedge between parent and child because the expectations of the deaf and the hearing, whether of each other or not, are so fundamentally different that basic co-existence can become very problematic very quickly.

There is a great fear in the parent that he/she/they, upon the child's acclimatisation to hearing, cease to be capable of parenting. Spoken words have a certain strength to them, that signing cannot match. Thus, there are two possible outcomes: the child is driven apart from his/her peers because he/she maintains the habits and mannerisms of the deaf so that a rift does not open with the parents; the child is driven apart from his/her parents in an effort to be 'normal' and co-exist with hearing children.

There is a third that is a happy compromise between them, but the setting must be among others who have had the implant, so they can choose to make the change from deaf to hearing however quickly or however slowly they choose, never losing sight of either, because let's not forget that hearing, even after so short a period of time as a few years never having experienced it (though it hardly matters since that has been one's entire life), can be strange, frightening, exhilirating but above all unknown. Children will take to that in different ways, such is their wont, some will take to it gladly, easily, reluctantly and some will wish they'd never done it (at least as an immediate consequence and it would take some time to get used to).

So, it is very contextually sensitive as to whether it is suitable for a child to have a cochlear implant, not so much on the restoration of all his/her senses, but his/her capability to accept the physical difference between them and their parents, and reconciling it with the world around them without forgetting that while they can hear, deafness remains a massive part of their life.

Barring this, why the FUCK are they trying to speak for the average deaf person, let alone EVERY deaf person? Were I a deaf person, I would permanently resent my parents if they forced me to stay deaf for life when I could alternately be somewhat normal (while still presumably learning sign language to speak to deaf people, making me twice as adapted as them).

Oh I agree, but there are several different types of deaf people (i.e. how they became deaf), and while I'd echo such sentiment, remember that we speak as people who can hear perfectly (or close enough to it) well. For those born deaf, they know nothing else and since they live on, they see nothing wrong with it until that moment when they first experience it (in the majority of cases, at least). So were they to live out their lives deaf, they wouldn't think much of it.

 

[Vicarious Reality]

Yeah, damn this medical corset i have to wear in order to keep my spine straight, i have my pride to think of