Poll: Death Penalty

[SenseOfTumour]

That's something that concerns me, not wanting to derail the topic any further, but a phrase like 'the public knew he was guilty'. In that case I'm sure it was right, but I know at least in the UK press, they have an idea of who they like and who they don't like.

If they like you, you'll never be photographed looking less that perfect, if they don't they'll be hiding in your bushes trying to get the most dishevelled shots possible.

I guess I'm on the way to pointing out people who've been accused of a crime who are in the public eye, then proved innocent in court, yet they're forever guilty in the public eye, because it was in the newspaper.

For instance John Leslie, who certainly isn't a nice guy, according to what he's admitted to, was proved innocent of all rape allegations, however, ask most brits and I'm sure they'll think he was that rapist guy.

This a country where paediatricians have had angry mobs outside their homes, because idiots thought they were paedophiles. The public are generally fuckwits, I believe the rule is, divide the average IQ of the mob by the number of people in it to get the mob's IQ. Despite me not having a suitable replacement for democracy, I am concerned they get to make any decisions.

 

[BaronAsh]

THE REAL REASON there is a death penalty is so that

a). we don't spend 40'000 dollars a year per prisoner keeping them alive.

and b). slave labor and gladiators are unacceptable (someone explain that to me)

 

[Ultrajoe]

THE REAL REASON there is a death penalty is so that

a). we don't spend 40'000 dollars a year per prisoner keeping them alive.

and b). slave labor and gladiators are unacceptable (someone explain that to me)

Its cheaper to let them live than execute them.

And slave labor doesn't work for a host of reasons, they have been discussed.

That's something that concerns me, not wanting to derail the topic any further, but a phrase like 'the public knew he was guilty'. In that case I'm sure it was right, but I know at least in the UK press, they have an idea of who they like and who they don't like.

If they like you, you'll never be photographed looking less that perfect, if they don't they'll be hiding in your bushes trying to get the most dishevelled shots possible.

I guess I'm on the way to pointing out people who've been accused of a crime who are in the public eye, then proved innocent in court, yet they're forever guilty in the public eye, because it was in the newspaper.

Ever seen 'Evil Angels'?

Its about the 'trial by media' of Lindy Chamberlain. And how she was falsely convicted of the murder of her won child because that's the story the media chose to push.

the danger of public opinion is only made more dangerous when you give the death penalty.

 

[Logan Westbrook]

I find myself in two minds about capital punishment.

There's a part of me that resents paying for murderers to live out the rest of their days in prison and when I try and put myself in the shoes of the victim's family, life imprisonment doesn't feel like justice at all.

On the other hand, the thought of executing the wrong person weighs heavily on my mind. As others have mentioned, it's not something you can fix after it's done and how can you ever be completely sure.

I suppose I'm undecided.

EDIT: This is an ancillary point to mine, but I think it warrants mentioning

THE REAL REASON there is a death penalty is so that

a). we don't spend 40'000 dollars a year per prisoner keeping them alive.

and b). slave labor and gladiators are unacceptable (someone explain that to me)

Its cheaper to let them live than execute them.

Is it? I had a quick look on the internet and found this [http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/drowfacts.htm]

the especially relevant part is this:

Lethal Injection Consists Of:

Sodium Thiopental (lethal dose - sedates person)
Pancuronium Bromide (muscle relaxant-collapses diaphragm and lungs)
Potassium Chloride (stops heart beat)
The offender is usually pronounced dead approximately 7 minutes after the lethal injection begins.
Cost per execution for drugs used : $86.08

 

[werepossum]

I find myself in two minds about capital punishment.

There's a part of me that resents paying for murderers to live out the rest of their days in prison and when I try and put myself in the shoes of the victim's family, life imprisonment doesn't feel like justice at all.

On the other hand, the thought of executing the wrong person weighs heavily on my mind. As others have mentioned, it's not something you can fix after it's done and how can you ever be completely sure.

I suppose I'm undecided.

EDIT: This is an ancillary point to mine, but I think it warrants mentioning

THE REAL REASON there is a death penalty is so that

a). we don't spend 40'000 dollars a year per prisoner keeping them alive.

and b). slave labor and gladiators are unacceptable (someone explain that to me)

Its cheaper to let them live than execute them.

Is it? I had a quick look on the internet and found this [http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/drowfacts.htm]

the especially relevant part is this:

Lethal Injection Consists Of:

Sodium Thiopental (lethal dose - sedates person)
Pancuronium Bromide (muscle relaxant-collapses diaphragm and lungs)
Potassium Chloride (stops heart beat)
The offender is usually pronounced dead approximately 7 minutes after the lethal injection begins.
Cost per execution for drugs used : $86.08

Good post and link. I'm a death penalty advocate, but I don't like the Texas method. Whilst I realize that a speedy execution is the best deterrent to other criminals, sooner or later an innocent man will be put to death. Therefore I like the idea of several years of appeals, even though it's more expensive than a quick execution or a life sentence, to reduce the chance of killing an innocent man. I do like Texas' list of capital crimes, though, except I'd raise the age to twelve rather than six.

 

[Ultrajoe]

Is it? I had a quick look on the internet and found this [http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/drowfacts.htm]

the especially relevant part is this:

Lethal Injection Consists Of:

Sodium Thiopental (lethal dose - sedates person)
Pancuronium Bromide (muscle relaxant-collapses diaphragm and lungs)
Potassium Chloride (stops heart beat)
The offender is usually pronounced dead approximately 7 minutes after the lethal injection begins.
Cost per execution for drugs used : $86.08

The costs exceed those of keeping them in prison for life because of the Initial trial seeking the death penalty.

Not the appeals, not the ongoing red tape.

The initial trial. Msh had a link to it a few pages back.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

I view this as an invalid argument, not because I'm comfortable killing innocents, but for the following. To use that pedo I was talking about earlier, he is guilty, he knows he's guilty (having confessed as much), he does not regret it, the public knows he is guilty - and thus regardless of what evidence comes up he will be convicted and so he is not getting a trial, because the trial will be biased. Finally, and most importantly to my eyes, he is a serial offender.

So you mean that if there is absolute and incontrevertible proof of guilt you would accept it? Then say that, its much easier.

I still don't see why you keep bringing up the issue of the fair trial and what effect it has on this, it seems irrelevant and confuses the issue, it makes it look like you are advocating the death penalty only in cases where a fair trial is impossible.

As an aside, would he have confessed if he faced the death penalty?

Yes his family will be distressed, yes he may leave a widow, but would you prefer to leave him alive and released to destroy someone else's family? Which is more cruel?

The latter of course. Although you do have the option to not release them, ever.

Now I understand what you're saying about the police officers, but it wasn't meant to be literal, what I was getting at was that tasers are meant to be treated as last resort weapons, like a firearm, but because we know they are non lethal, the cops tend to use them more often than they should. When you start throwing lethal force around people stop and think about it more often.

Well, I think you've almost explained your point this time, by way of another bloody example. Seriously, just write down what you mean, people will understand, not everyone needs an example.
You are saying that people will be more careful giving out the death penalty because of its severity and therefore be less likely to convict people where there may be some doubt?

Hmmmm...I have my thoughts on that but I don't think I can face any more 'examples'.

You do have some good arguments though, just not very easy to understand in the format you presented them.

I personally support life in prison, except they have to spend all day from 5am to 10pm turning a giant 2 handed crank that does nothing but turn. No enteratinment or anything like that, you just have to make a game of turning the crank. See how many times you can turn it in a day, and then try to beat that record. Fun times. I am half joking about the crank of doom (only half mind you), sending all your prisoners mad within 2 years might not be such a good idea.

 

[Gitsnik]

Well, I think you've almost explained your point this time, by way of another bloody example. Seriously, just write down what you mean, people will understand, not everyone needs an example.

I spend all day talking to people. Everybody needs an example, because nobody understands the way my mind works straight out (let's not get into a dickwave but no, I'm not stupid by any means, I just think differently to most of the population - this is just an aside). Yourself included or you would have got what I said about the tasers etc. straight out.

You are saying that people will be more careful giving out the death penalty because of its severity and therefore be less likely to convict people where there may be some doubt?

Yes

You do have some good arguments though, just not very easy to understand in the format you presented them.

Part of the reason I tried to step out of the discussion.

I personally support life in prison, except they have to spend all day from 5am to 10pm turning a giant 2 handed crank that does nothing but turn. No enteratinment or anything like that, you just have to make a game of turning the crank. See how many times you can turn it in a day, and then try to beat that record. Fun times. I am half joking about the crank of doom (only half mind you), sending all your prisoners mad within 2 years might not be such a good idea.

I'd prefer punishment/torture than I would the death penalty, to be honest. The problem is:

b). slave labor and gladiators are unacceptable

And apologies for splitting up the post like that, good to see that you've understood my POV though.

Cheers

(Hey look no examples - but I did come back once more).

 

[ultra_v_89]

The reason I love the show Dexter so much is because I believe that what he is doing is right. There are some people who are going to reoffend no matter what and if executing them prevents the death of more innocents then I am for it. Would you really want to see Hitler living out his days in jail? Does he deserve this sort of sympathy? No. To disregard human life is to lose the right to your own.
EDIT: Sorry its been a long and exam filled month and this sounded less hypocritical in my head

 

[Ultrajoe]

The reason I love the show Dexter so much is because I believe that what he is doing is right. There are some people who are going to reoffend no matter what and if executing them prevents the death of more innocents then I am for it. Would you really want to see Hitler living out his days in jail? Does he deserve this sort of sympathy? No. To disregard human life is to lose the right to your own.

Just re-read that back to yourself will you? the last sentence in juxtaposition to the rest, specifically.

 

[rossatdi]

Would you really want to see Hitler living out his days in jail? Does he deserve this sort of sympathy? No. To disregard human life is to lose the right to your own.

Isn't there a general internet rule about the first person to resort to Hitler/Nazis?

Surely if all human life is sacred then all human life is sacred?

Also I'm fairly sure that most people on a life sentence (anything above 20 years) would trade all the luxuries of prison life to work hard and live in freedom.

 

[ultra_v_89]

Would you really want to see Hitler living out his days in jail? Does he deserve this sort of sympathy? No. To disregard human life is to lose the right to your own.

Isn't there a general internet rule about the first person to resort to Hitler/Nazis?

Surely if all human life is sacred then all human life is sacred?

Also I'm fairly sure that most people on a life sentence (anything above 20 years) would trade all the luxuries of prison life to work hard and live in freedom.

Well I only bring up Hitler because he is a universal evil and because what he did constitues just about the most horrendous crime that can be committed. If any person deserved the death penalty, would it not be him?

The reason I love the show Dexter so much is because I believe that what he is doing is right. There are some people who are going to reoffend no matter what and if executing them prevents the death of more innocents then I am for it. Would you really want to see Hitler living out his days in jail? Does he deserve this sort of sympathy? No. To disregard human life is to lose the right to your own.

Just re-read that back to yourself will you? the last sentence in juxtaposition to the rest, specifically.

Yeah, probably should have put that on another line. I shall try again. To disregard life so callously (as Hitler did) is to lose the right to your own. Hows that? Also I found this quote when I had to do an inquiry project on capital punishment.
"Where would Christianity be if Jesus got eight to fifteen years with time off for good behaviour?" - James Donavon

 

[PiecemealPirate]

Once upon a persuasive speech in freshman composition, it was revealed to me that the cost of the death penalty actually has the tendency to exceed the cost of life imprisonment.

Money talks, and I thought this was a huge nail in the coffin for the death penalty, but the philosophical debates will continue forever regardless.

Assuming that speech was correct, erring on the side of frugality doesn't seem like such a bad idea- anyone pushing for the death penalty would at least have the time to change their mind should it be abolished.

 

[Graustein]

Would you really want to see Hitler living out his days in jail? Does he deserve this sort of sympathy? No. To disregard human life is to lose the right to your own.

Isn't there a general internet rule about the first person to resort to Hitler/Nazis?

Surely if all human life is sacred then all human life is sacred?

Also I'm fairly sure that most people on a life sentence (anything above 20 years) would trade all the luxuries of prison life to work hard and live in freedom.

Godwin's Law.

Anyway, death is too good for Hitler.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

I spend all day talking to people. Everybody needs an example, because nobody understands the way my mind works straight out (let's not get into a dickwave but no, I'm not stupid by any means, I just think differently to most of the population - this is just an aside). Yourself included or you would have got what I said about the tasers etc. straight out.

What you should do if you want the largest number of people to understand you is:

Make your point. and
Explain it.
Give an example with as little information that doesn't directly relate to what you are saying as possible.
If need be, explain how each stage of your example relates to your original point and explaination. [EDIT: I have this odd feeling it's spelt explanation...dunno why, just something in the back of my head...]

No matter how confusing your though processes are, I doubt they will be as confusing as trying to work out how your examples relate to your invisible thought process'

I suppose if you really are unable to make clear, concise explainations of what you mean, then there isn't much more I can say.

Apologies if I've come off a little pedantic, but saying the risk of executing innocent people is an invalid argument, saying you need to qualify the statement and then not really doing so is an open invite have someone ask you to actually qualify what you mean. In the end your arguments were pretty good, it just took a fair bit of weedling to get them out of you.

I still go for the 'it's not actually necessary to kill them to neutralise them as a threat' answer.

 

[rossatdi]

Would you really want to see Hitler living out his days in jail? Does he deserve this sort of sympathy? No. To disregard human life is to lose the right to your own.

Isn't there a general internet rule about the first person to resort to Hitler/Nazis?

Surely if all human life is sacred then all human life is sacred?

Also I'm fairly sure that most people on a life sentence (anything above 20 years) would trade all the luxuries of prison life to work hard and live in freedom.

Godwin's Law.

Anyway, death is too good for Hitler.

Well what about Stalin and Mao, they killed far than Hitler ever managed. Why do they never get brought up?

Death is too good for Hitler, but assuming that he was captured alive then surely leaving him rotting in a jail cell would probably manage that. Also it'd be worthwhile just to understand the man - psychotic as he was - he is one of the most important (read: not in a good way) men in the last 100 years.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Its cheaper to let them live than execute them.

Is it? I had a quick look on the internet and found this [http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/drowfacts.htm]

the especially relevant part is this:

Lethal Injection Consists Of:

Sodium Thiopental (lethal dose - sedates person)
Pancuronium Bromide (muscle relaxant-collapses diaphragm and lungs)
Potassium Chloride (stops heart beat)
The offender is usually pronounced dead approximately 7 minutes after the lethal injection begins.
Cost per execution for drugs used : $86.08

That's basic monetary cost. Doesn't include the human cost of actually doing it. There's also a number of cases where the chemicals haven't reacted as planned. Imagine watching someone who is fully aware for those seven minutes; because at least two people have to.

And what about the dependants of the murderer, or actually storing those drugs in prison?

For $32,000 a year, would you be willing to watch a man die every couple of weeks? And have the chance of your life being ended every day?

 

[Ultrajoe]

"Where would Christianity be if Jesus got eight to fifteen years with time off for good behaviour?" - James Donavon

Do... do you even read what you type?

Its all very well to re-word a sentence and call it a new one, but it would seem you have not learned a lesson!

You and i differ on fundamental points, making this a very pointless argument, and so i think it would be best if we swept those comments under the rug.

 

[Graustein]

Would you really want to see Hitler living out his days in jail? Does he deserve this sort of sympathy? No. To disregard human life is to lose the right to your own.

Isn't there a general internet rule about the first person to resort to Hitler/Nazis?

Surely if all human life is sacred then all human life is sacred?

Also I'm fairly sure that most people on a life sentence (anything above 20 years) would trade all the luxuries of prison life to work hard and live in freedom.

Godwin's Law.

Anyway, death is too good for Hitler.

Well what about Stalin and Mao, they killed far than Hitler ever managed. Why do they never get brought up?

Death is too good for Hitler, but assuming that he was captured alive then surely leaving him rotting in a jail cell would probably manage that. Also it'd be worthwhile just to understand the man - psychotic as he was - he is one of the most important (read: not in a good way) men in the last 100 years.

Stalin and Mao too, but we were talking about Hitler, not them. As for why they never get brought up, I believe it's because for the most part their crimes were against their own citizens, whereas Hitler's generally weren't (remembering that under the Nuremberg Laws Jews weren't considered German citizens), and while all 3 had cults of personality, Hitler was the only one who's victims were not also subject to that cult. While the Jews blame Hitler, the Russians didn't blame Stalin. Tie in with the fact that there's always this big song and dance about the Holocaust. Frankly I think the Holocaust is overrated.

Oh, I agree. But by no means should we be nice to him about it.

 

[ultra_v_89]

Dude, Im not trying to debate who the evilest bastard in history was, I'm just (unsuccessfully) trying to make a point, using the highly publicized Hitler as an example. You do point out the grey area in the topic, is living in prison all your life better or worse than death? And which penatly do we bestow upon the worlds Hitlers, Stalins or Maos?