Poll: Do Gamers Need Anita Sarkeesian's Feminism?

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Milanezi

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We don't need her focus on controversy, we don't need her thriving out of serious/valid subjects by tearing them apart into mere one sided sensationalism. A feminist's view, now that is useful, to "geek culture" in general I might add, that's controversy that leads somewhere, probably to something good even. It's all about how one uses information. Anita damages feminism, the way a religious fanatic damages his religion, it's all I have to say.
 

Uratoh

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Gamers need to look at the issues she brings up. She's not strictly wrong, but her approach to it is. It's something that needs to be debated and talked about, not 'lectured at', which is what she's doing. You could argue she's talking at the gaming community like they're a bunch of 5 year olds who will react with vitrol to any thread, as this video points out, and it's not wrong either...but no side is going to make any leeway until people will actually discuss the issues and problems, as opposed to polarizing and line drawing. Anita's heavy comment blocking has drawn her a LOT of attention, which is likely the intent, but it's made the actual debate of the various sides of the issues that much harder, since by taking an effectively 'I am right, now sit down and shut up' stance...she encourages people to take the polar opposite opinion of her, instead of being able to say 'you make some good points, but'.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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hiei82 said:
Now, before Pandora's box opens
You did just by mentioning Anita in the title, dude. Any thread with her name in the title is baiting for clicks and flames.
And no, I don't NEED her, nobody NEEDS her. She popped up out of nowhere and people either agreed or disagreed with her irscible tirades, but there was never any NEED for her.
 

Thr33X

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Silvanus said:
Do people ever tire of vicious hyperbole, whenever Anita Sarkeesian is mentioned?


Thr33X said:
OT: We need feminism in games like we need a knife to the gut.
Get some perspective. Literature & film were both left better off for their recognition that white men were not the sole possible heroes. Why do you believe games to be so much more limited as an art form?
Games are not limited as artform at all. The ideals of Sarkeesian and feminist extremists like her are. This is the same woman who says that there needs to be "women only" subway cars in the US. The response is always going to be vicious for someone as self-centered, self-serving and short-sighted as she is.
 

Silvanus

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Thr33X said:
Games are not limited as artform at all. The ideals of Sarkeesian and feminist extremists like her are. This is the same woman who says that there needs to be "women only" subway cars in the US. The response is always going to be vicious for someone as self-centered, self-serving and short-sighted as she is.
You didn't say "Anita Sarkeesian"; you said "Feminism".

If you apply the same artistic standard to literature and film, as you imply above, presumably you think they were better off before women became anything but love-interests or maidens to be rescued. You know; since that isn't limiting at all.
 

Thr33X

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Silvanus said:
Thr33X said:
Games are not limited as artform at all. The ideals of Sarkeesian and feminist extremists like her are. This is the same woman who says that there needs to be "women only" subway cars in the US. The response is always going to be vicious for someone as self-centered, self-serving and short-sighted as she is.
You didn't say "Anita Sarkeesian"; you said "Feminism".

If you apply the same artistic standard to literature and film, as you imply above, presumably you think they were better off before women became anything but love-interests or maidens to be rescued. You know; since that isn't limiting at all.
First off, don't "presume" anything. Take my comments at face value and nothing more, less you rather type to a blank screen because I have better things to do than go tit-for-tat on a message board with someone itching to pick another self-righteous fight. No, feminism in general does not have a place in games, nor does it in any other form of entertainment because they're all CREATIVE endeavors. Artistic expressions of storytelling told in the way, shape and style that those creating them choose to tell them. I myself being an artist and designer, I'll be damned if I'm going to conform my creative vision to appease a small group of people who aren't happy about the way things are done. If you want something done right, or done to your liking, then create your own vision (not targeting you, but a general statement) and share it with the world. That's what happened with books and film, ladies began to put their own work in rather than expect a handout. If gender equality is the ultimate goal here, then that realization needs to be made by ALL who call themselves feminists...if you want something done, WORK FOR IT.

In this day age most of them are content with demonstrations, venomous rants on YouTube and terrorizing Tumblr. Modern feminism now is not so much about liberating women (how can you do such a thing that's already been achieved?), so much as it about vilifying men, or should I say "the patriarchy". The modern feminist tries to make a mandate out of everything that they deem unfairly portrays women, and for all of their whistle blowing, I've yet to see one person try to come up with sound solutions that benefit all, not just them.

They want inclusion, but at the same time demand some sort of special privilege, and forget about having a counterpoint or opinion, lest you be ignored and labeled misogynist for disagreeing with them. It's no different than the fanboy epidemic in gaming, that being "I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG AND THAT'S THAT", and that too is a unnecessary yet accepted aspect of the community. It is what it is...but on the same token, just as I said in my first post here, both are as welcome as shiv to my sternum. You want "perspective"? Well there's mine...and a little tip for you in response, read on the lines and not between them.
 

Thr33X

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kiri2tsubasa said:
TehCookie said:
No, while gaming does need a feminism wake up call it doesn't need to be Anita's. Probably because I only seen her Bayonetta video and promptly decided she doesn't have a clue what she's talking about and never played the game.

While everyone is now focusing on female characters, I think games should strive to have better characters in general.

And a slightly off-topic question for my own amusement after seeing the above post: How many people on here asked a girl why she doesn't play games? What did she say?

I see all this speculation on how to get girls into gaming, but I rarely see people ask girls directly what they want to play.
Ohh OOhhh I have. She specifically stated that she doesn't have the time or interest to learn coding.
This is in part an example of what I said above to respond to the previous post. Basically this statement is "I WANT CHANGE!!! But I want someone else to do it for me because I can't be bothered to do all that work for it on my own." That kind of self-serving, self-indulgent self-righteousness is exactly the problem here. If you're not willing to "bleed" a little for your cause, then don't attempt to fight for it.

I myself for example, am a Black male...so that means, by no fault of my own except for societal "tropes" (commonly known as stereotypes) have two strikes against me in whatever I do, Strike 1) I'm black, Strike 2) I'm male, so in most case I have to work a little extra to get what I want out of life in general. That's just the way things are, but if I don't want to be victimized by the inherent ignorance of others, I have to do for myself. I have to tear down the blocks and barriers that are impeding my upward mobility in life...and realistically that doesn't apply JUST to situation of race. Any person, any race, any gender has their own blocks as well that they have to be willing to work to tear down to get what they want out of life because nobody's going to do it for them.

Now plug that into this current topic we speak of and tell me if certain "people" don't come off as sounding a wee bit hypocritical?
 

hiei82

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Johnny Novgorod said:
hiei82 said:
Now, before Pandora's box opens
You did just by mentioning Anita in the title, dude. Any thread with her name in the title is baiting for clicks and flames.
And no, I don't NEED her, nobody NEEDS her. She popped up out of nowhere and people either agreed or disagreed with her irscible tirades, but there was never any NEED for her.
True; but that's because it's the name of the video. I wanted to elaborate on the point - by which I mean make people watch the video - before I got into the fighting over it.
 

Silvanus

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Thr33X said:
That's what happened with books and film, ladies began to put their own work in rather than expect a handout.
Such changes didn't occur in a vacuum-- It's more complicated than that. Social criticism played a role.

Pointing out how the current artistic landscape could be improved is useful. If it wasn't, then this website wouldn't exist.
 

Atmos Duality

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From the Video said:
"Everyone should feel free to talk about games without threat, not just some vocal minority's definition of who is or isn't a gamer."
There's a hint of irony in this statement. See if you can spot it.

Sarkeesian may have given this movement a face, but oh, what a horrible face to have.
She's a professional troll that found a soft spot among gaming's vocal minority; someone who stirs shit up with intellectually bankrupt logic yet, solely due to the backlash, she makes bank on it via her kickstarter fund. Nothing more.

So please, spare me this beatifying of Anita by comparing her to the likes of Rosa Parks and Harvey Milk.
Those are people who received ACTUAL death threats; from people who would actually deliver if given the chance, and not just some anonymous fuckhead troll on the internet trying act tough.

Feminism honestly deserves better.
 

1066

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While I honestly believe that women should be better represented in games and I will readily admit that there's a lot of sexism in games, I also firmly believe that nothing will improve until feminist groups stop putting this pressure on the industry.

What do I mean?

I'm reminded of a comment I once heard concerning Star Trek Voyager. A captain who stranded herself and her crew a lifetime from home and, to keep her ship running, had to enlist a similarly trapped group of rebels with no love for the Federation into her staff. She should have been constantly under fire from them and, for the first while anyway, facing constant fear of mutiny, but she wasn't. After some lip service, that issue and plotline was quietly swept under the rug. Honestly ask yourself: why, and why not? Any other captain in the franchise would have been. Kate Mulgrew's a fine actor. She could have done a great job of it.

So why?

It could be that the writers didn't respect the character, but I don't buy that. There were too many love letter sendups to her through the show's run. More likely, they were afraid of the backlash should they ever call her ability into question. To question her ability to be Captain, which anyone should face in those circumstances, became impossible because to do so would be seen as questioning the abilities of all women, not just hers. It could have been very powerful and empowering to see. As the same guy said of Sisko: he was written as 'The Captain' but not 'The Black Captain.' His race wasn't ignored, but it was largely irrelevent to his job, role and the respect given him. Had they done the same for her, subjected her to every criticism and hardship that would be placed on anyone in that situation, it could have been amazing. But it couldn't ever happen because they were too afraid to let the story play out.

In the end, the effort put in to avoid coming across as sexist made it more sexist.

And so it is in gaming.

The outrage over Metroid: Other M should show that we, as a community, do respect our icons if nothing else and there's nothing actually stopping a woman from becoming one. That said, as above, Samus simply was who she was. It wasn't shoved down our throats and the original game (granted, largely impossible to do otherwise at the time) simply let itself play out. What amounted to two seconds worth of a smug grin at the end of that game did more to hammer the point home than pages of dialogue informing us that, yes, this woman is a bounty hunter and let me tell you how amazing she is.

Jade from Beyond Good and Evil, while more feminine and talkative, was much the same. She was, and the game just went with it. Chell and GLaDos are much the same, as is Kerrigan.

I love these characters and yet, if I were a publisher, I wouldn't touch them with a ten-foot pole.

Again, why?

Just today I was shocked to learn that Amnesty International was up in arms over a torture scene in GTA. Granted, what I've read is in there is quite excessive. Even so, they were calling for parents to be aware and not let children play the game, not for censorship. Thinking back, I can remember at least two of the Metal Gear games having scenes where the protagonist was tortured, even losing an eye in one of them. More recently, in Far Cry 3, your character has to torture his own brother at one point and, later, save a friend from a sociopath. While never explicitly stated, the game made it clear that he'd been raped by the guy, but once the event was finished, it was quietly shuffled aside and never mentioned again. I don't remember anyone speaking up on any of these. Violence in general, maybe, but that's a different argument.

Now, in Far Cry, pretend that it was the main character's sister (assuming he had one) in either of those scenarios. Things change very quickly. Not so long ago there was an outcry over Tomb Raider because of a scene where a young Croft had to kill someone to protect herself, not get vengeance or save someone else getting raped, but to protect herself.

Now, I hate sexual assault of any kind in a narrative. I despise it. I see it like juggling hammers: You can't do anything else until you're finished, it's horribly difficult, notoriously unbalanced and one slip up will end with you crippling yourself. Still, you can't have a character in some of those situations without at least a lampshading done, or you'll have an elephant in the room the whole time. If you want your story to be serious, then you need to be serious, and that leads to some dark places. The situation cannot be sugarcoated without losing the integrity of what you're trying to create.

It's why I greatly respect games like Silent Hill 3 and The Last of Us, and those behind them, for having the guts to do what they set out to do.

In similar vein, accurate or not, the atmosphere is that these groups will tear apart and protest any female character who does not conform to their views on how women should be portrayed. You need a slob? Use a guy. It's okay to make a guy gross. Women may be set up as object and pet hoarders, but those are people with serious mental disorders that must be treated with respect and understanding, and even then it's a sexist stereotype.

Need a kidnapping victim? Use a male sibling or a son. Then, it's a tragedy. If it's his wife or daughter, it's the subject/object dicotomy. And so on.

Now, this doesn't mean there aren't ugly sex-based stereotypes on both sides that need to be addressed, but you get my point.

Now, ask the question: You're looking to invest money in a project and put your name to it. If nothing integral to the story will change, then why not insist that the protagonist be male? There's still something to be said about the tired studio desire to have a leading man to cater to what they see as their main demographic, but more than that, it just dodges so many bullets. Yes, there'll be a short to-do about not having a female playable character, but that'll blow over quickly and just get added to the pile. The real damage comes from trying and failing to live up to what's being asked, so why would they, as a business, risk going through that minefield?

The few gems we have come from people with more guts than I can claim and brass balls to back it up. For most of the rest? It's just not good business sense to even try, or alternately, they make games designed to be juvenile or to titilate (neither of which I see as inherently bad things so long as everyone involved is aware that that's what they're doing) made for an audience who just doesn't much care about the rest of what's going on.

So, no. I don't think the industry or culture needs this form of feminism. I think many, if not most, consumers want the same things that they want, at least in the context of variety and options. Encouragement without duress to have more female options and companies/writers more willing to have well-written female characters, yes, but that's not going to happen in the current atmosphere and climate, and that won't change until a lot of people back off
 

Schadrach

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hiei82 said:
Hm... That's an interesting point. I can't say I disagree with the distinction. It's certainly a subtle point. I suppose you could say there are "film lovers" and "book lovers" but that's not exactly the same thing. Especially since no one would ever accuse a movie lover of not loving movies because they like a different kind of movie or have different criteria for what makes a good movie. I wonder if the rise of "gamers" as a group has to do with the relative youth of the medium, the origins of the medium as "toy", or if it's just a quark of the medium. I also wonder if films and books went through this stage (or would have were they born in a more interconnected age)

Good point sir or madam! Lots of food for thought.
...and you'd best not question someone's self-identification as a "movie buff" just because they've only ever seen the Die Hard movies, or only ever watch slasher flicks. Let alone if they don't know who Lucas or Spielberg are.

See how silly that sounds?

Silvanus said:
Get some perspective. Literature & film were both left better off for their recognition that white men were not the sole possible heroes. Why do you believe games to be so much more limited as an art form?
Aside from the most vague and toothless varieties of it (the kinds that you believe to be theoretically necessary to have a female protagonist at all [which means the kinds that have been present for a very, very long time]), gaming needs feminism like a fish needs a bicycle.

As opposed to the kind that goes on sexism with hunts, or the kind that starts demanding that creators defend their choice of gender for their protagonists (but only if the protagonist is male).
 

Thr33X

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1066 said:
This is the best reading I've done all day. I can say nothing else except for excellent job, and that I wish this message could somehow spread farther than here on this thread.
 

Uhura

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Atmos Duality said:
she makes bank on it via ad-hits.
What ad-hits? She doesn't display ads on her webpage nor on her youtube account.
 

hiei82

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Schadrach said:
hiei82 said:
Hm... That's an interesting point. I can't say I disagree with the distinction. It's certainly a subtle point. I suppose you could say there are "film lovers" and "book lovers" but that's not exactly the same thing. Especially since no one would ever accuse a movie lover of not loving movies because they like a different kind of movie or have different criteria for what makes a good movie. I wonder if the rise of "gamers" as a group has to do with the relative youth of the medium, the origins of the medium as "toy", or if it's just a quark of the medium. I also wonder if films and books went through this stage (or would have were they born in a more interconnected age)

Good point sir or madam! Lots of food for thought.
...and you'd best not question someone's self-identification as a "movie buff" just because they've only ever seen the Die Hard movies, or only ever watch slasher flicks. Let alone if they don't know who Lucas or Spielberg are.

See how silly that sounds?
"You've only seen slasher flicks! You're not a Real movie lover; you're a FAKE Movie lover!"

See how silly that sounds?

In my experience, I's say it's much more likely that if someone said "I've only watched slasher flicks" the other side would quickly start making recommendations of movies they love to broaden the others horizons rather then specifically exclude some people.

After all, at one point or another, we've all only played one or two games. The difference is in the reaction, not the substance.
 

Silvanus

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Schadrach said:
Aside from the most vague and toothless varieties of it (the kinds that you believe to be theoretically necessary to have a female protagonist at all [which means the kinds that have been present for a very, very long time]), gaming needs feminism like a fish needs a bicycle.
To suggest media could use a little more realistic diversity, or a little more balance-- I wouldn't call such things "vague and toothless".

Such complaints needn't even be called feminism, either. It just so happens that this particular industry is particularly unbalanced in that respect.
 

McMarbles

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After seeing the reaction Sarkeesian topics always get, every single time, I've come to the conclusion that she's not the feminist gaming needs... but she's the feminist gaming deserves.