Poll: Do you agree with the criminalisation of drug use?

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Fieldy409_v1legacy

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Oct 9, 2008
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Those harder substances create dangerous groups of people. If you legalised everything there would be more people doing the drugs as they figure its okay its legal now and thus some of those people become the types who are dangerous addicts, More people that become homeless because all their money goes into getting yet another fix, more people who are so desperate for a fix that they will hold up a person with a knife, then due to their fucked up mental processes just kill the guy for the $20 in their pocket, and instead of spending that twenty dollars on food after having not eaten for days they run to the nearest 24 hour chemist to buy a fix, then go to sleep in an alleyway.

Thats why in my opinion the war on drugs can never stop, we cant win but we cant just sit idly by and let this stuff destroy lives.
 

Thaluikhain

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Jan 16, 2010
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Spot1990 said:
You should not be a criminal for using drugs. Manufacturing and selling them fine, whatever. But drug addicts aren't criminals, they're sick. Throwing them in prison won't help them.
An important distinction. Criminalising possession of, for example, marijuana, at least to any great extent, isn't helpful, especially when the laws are used creatively.
 

Kopikatsu

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May 27, 2010
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HardkorSB said:
CrystalViolet said:
Wow, dude, disagree with me if you will but it's bad form on your part to just dismiss me like that. Had you actually considered my arguments you would know that one of the primary factors in my supporting decriminalisation is the negative impact criminalisation has on people and their families. If "fuck you, I want what I want" was all that you got from my post then I'm afraid you've got a very warped perspective.
Don't bother.
When the cops in the US killed that homeless guy for no reason, this guy was saying that they did the right thing.
If drawing two knives on the officers and yelling 'I HAVE A RIGHT TO KILL YOU' after being told to leave the area is 'for no reason' then yes, they killed him for no reason.

But this is off-topic either way.
 

Colour Scientist

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Jul 15, 2009
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Fieldy409 said:
Those harder substances create dangerous groups of people. If you legalised everything there would be more people doing the drugs as they figure its okay its legal now and thus some of those people become the types who are dangerous addicts, More people that become homeless because all their money goes into getting yet another fix, more people who are so desperate for a fix that they will hold up a person with a knife, then due to their fucked up mental processes just kill the guy for the $20 in their pocket, and instead of spending that twenty dollars on food after having not eaten for days they run to the nearest 24 hour chemist to buy a fix, then go to sleep in an alleyway.

Thats why in my opinion the war on drugs can never stop, we cant win but we cant just sit idly by and let this stuff destroy lives.
There's a difference between legalisation and decriminalisation though.

Criminalising drug use doesn't seem to be an effective method of tackling the problem.
 

MHR

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Apr 3, 2010
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First, I'm just going to say weed is almost a non-drug in my opinion. As soon as I learned that all that crap I was taught in school was garbage, and that marijuana wasn't a hard drug you'd become a terrible disappointment to everyone if you consumed, and it was milder than the damn beer my dad was pounding every day, I can't take anyone against it seriously. Tax it (just because taxes in general need to be collected yo,) make it free to grow like spinach, give it to everyone except kids, smoke it, bake it, put it in olive garden salads, and freely prescribe it to all the haters everywhere instead of "chill-pills" literally and figuratively, and bump the cause of human progress and standards of living up another notch. I don't care because It's separate from the other drugs.

Sale of hard drugs should be illegal. I think we have to face facts; there is a tremendous number of stupid people, at least 1 in every 4. For every few people that use it responsibly enough, there will be a large percentage that can't handle it, no matter how well-enlightened the social opinion. I don't want those people to be enabled, they're crazy enough. That said, possession of the substance, not sale, should be less criminalized than it is today. lengthy re-education and rehabilitation should be mandatory, though now that I think about it, that's one way to describe jail. Fudge it, I just say reform the criminal justice system regarding controlled substances. Less hard time and more education for everyone. Don't let a little possession ruin somebody's life. Except dealers; still screw those guys.

I'm torn about whether to make it available to people to purchase legally if it's regulated and people have to get licenses by having to go through hoops like background checks, basic psych exams, and not having kids under 18, but that seems like a huge bureaucratic mess and it sits in an uneasy balance between personal freedom and mandated restrictions which I don't think could last. I don't think we need more DMV-like garbage in the world, even if it is in the interest of getting high.

If weed at least were legal, we could slap the crack pipe out of someone's hand, hand them a monster blunt, and tell them they need to toke that until they're too stoned to pick that pipe back up, or even remember what it was they were trying to do in the first place. And then they'd be so hungry that we couldn't possibly have skinny starving crackheads everywhere.

I'm a genius! :D
 

Death_Cometh

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In a perfect world I would legalize all drugs and let people make their decisions with regard to their use and let them deal with the consequences. This would save money on law enforcement and the drugs could be taxed to improve the economy and regulated to protect the user.

The problem is that we don't live in a perfect world and people are dumb as a sack of bricks. You may be able to take drugs like a champ and lead a normal, happy, healthy life but other dumb people are going to get addicted, commit crime and generally ruin it for everyone.

The current approach to dealing with drugs is not working though since the more the government tries to clamp down on it the more problems they seem to create. That is why I think that non-lethal and non-physically addictive drugs should be legalized while the more dangerous and addictive drugs should be decriminalized so that the stigma of being an addict can be dealt with because that is what stops addicts from seeking help, the fact that they thing they are too far down the rabbit hole to get help.
 

Nukekitten

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MHR said:
If weed at least were legal, we could slap the crack pipe out of someone's hand, hand them a monster blunt, and tell them they need to toke that until they're too stoned to pick that pipe back up, or even remember what it was they were trying to do in the first place. And then they'd be so hungry that we couldn't possibly have skinny starving crackheads everywhere.

I'm a genius! :D
t'is a jest, but I feel like there's a certain amount of truth in it. If drugs were legal, then we could have a beneficial drug culture. We could have a reasonably integrated set of relationships where the initial users of the things can learn from people who have been around them for a long time, where parents wouldn't fear that trying to refer someone to mental health services is going to get them in a lot of legal trouble, and where the warnings concerning harder drugs could be taken more seriously because the warnings wouldn't just concern the general class of things including things that it makes very little sense to warn against.

If someone is going to do drugs, it's vastly preferable to have them doing it at home, or with a group of trusted friends. In a context where responsible adults have a reasonable chance of becoming aware that they're doing it, have a reasonable chance of being taken seriously in their warnings, and where access to support structures surrounding the issue isn't going to have some sort of incredible legal pain associated with it. Rather than occurring in that class of things where clueless youngster's go off at night and experiment with something without any reasonable feedback from those who have done so before, and without any of the safety measures that come from being part of a social network that doesn't try to attack them for it.

Are there drugs that a very small number of people can deal with well? Yeah, obviously. In a perfect world would those who can't have access to the substance? No. But this really isn't a way we can go forwards ? if they don't have access to the relatively (just relatively) harmless drugs like crack they can make some of the more harmful analogues easily enough. If you're prepared to futz with your neurochemistry, then the range of chemicals that you can use to do so is so wide that you wouldn't be able to sell any pharmaceutical products if you wanted to keep them out of people's hands.

Which brings us onto the issue of whether dealing should be legalised. I tend to think that it should. In doing so:

- You destroy a criminal culture, you don't have drug gangs any more ? no more than you have gangs of people who work at the local pharmacy and kill each other over the local cough medicine monopoly.

- You eliminate variations in purity, so that people can reliably measure much they are taking and aren't at as great a risk of an unforeseen overdose.

- You eliminate restrictions on the supply of the less harmful forms of things so that people don't need to hack together extremely harmful substances ? far more harmful than crack cocaine.

- You free up an incredible amount of police resources to focus on crimes that cause more immediate personal harm; human trafficking, domestic abuse, murder, rape, et cetera.

- You're able to take accurate numbers as to the scope of the problem in a specific area, and relate it to other social problems in that area to plan responses.

When people talk about legalising dealing they seem to be viewing it as not prosecuting the random drug dealer on the corner. That's not how we should do it, that guy should still go to jail; he should go to jail for all the things that would be criminal under the new way of doing things, (if he keeps doing them.) We should legalise it and regulate it is we do any other pharmaceutical product.

Given that people are going to do this sort of thing, it makes far more sense to me to structure it within the context of a community that can approach it as a mental health issue than it does to criminalise it and to ensure that the drugs people have access to aren't more harmful than they have to be. If your kid turns into a crack addict, starts missing their classes, it's having major effects on their physical health/ability to concentrate and form friendship, maybe that's something for child social services rather than something they ought to go to prison for. Maybe it's time to look into why their life is shitty enough/boring enough that they'd jump into that particular form of hell.
 

mistercheese

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Apr 20, 2013
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If banning these drugs would effectively remove them and their associated problems then I'd support that, but voted full legalization because banning them doesn't seem to have been effective. These illegal drugs are a significant problem anyway. The money spent on enforcing drug laws would be more efficiently spent elsewhere. I'll take this back in light of an educated claim to the contrary, but I don't think the people who are currently prevented from taking drugs by their being illegal are the people that would cause problems if the drugs were legally available.
 

gigastar

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CrystalViolet said:
Kopikatsu said:
Sometimes people need to be protected from themselves.
So what about people like me who don't need protecting from ourselves?
1) Not everyone is you. Never assume that.

2) As has been proven many times over, many people simply cannot break an addiction on thier own.

3) Its not just for thier own safety, its for the safety of those around them too.
 

lacktheknack

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Jan 19, 2009
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I say to leave all recreational drugs as illegal, but instead of tossing addicts in prison for decades, how about a few months of enforced rehab/detox?

No, I don't trust people to choose responsibly and act responsibly. No one should trust people to do that.
 

Vykrel

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marijuana should be legal, no doubt about that. however, i think users of other drugs should not be treated like criminals unless it has caused them to commit a REAL crime. hard drug users need help, not a criminal record and a prison sentence.

it should be illegal to traffic the stuff, though. go after the people who create, move, and sell the harder drugs, not the people who use them.
 

sanquin

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Selling of soft drugs or drugs that aren't highly addictive: Legalize it. People should be able to buy drugs like these whenever they want. (Weed, Ecstasy, LSD, Tobacco, etc)

Using of soft drugs/etc: Same as above. There should of course be regulations/laws on things like driving or operation of complicated machinery for this, though.

Selling hard drugs and highly addictive drugs: Criminalize this. These drugs mostly just destroy lives, even if the person themselves doesn't care any more by that point. I'm talking about drugs like Crystal Meth, Cocaine, Heroin, etc.

Using hard drugs/etc: Legalize it. As in, if you do get addicted, you can get help without any penalties.
 

CrystalViolet

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gigastar said:
1) Not everyone is you. Never assume that.
Which is why I said "people like me". I'm talking about people like me, not everyone. Never assume that I'm assuming. My point is that a tightly regulated market where drugs are free from adulterants and quality controlled would mostly filter out problematic users while allowing responsible users like me to access it.

gigastar said:
2) As has been proven many times over, many people simply cannot break an addiction on thier own.
Don't conflate drug use with problematic drug use. the point of the regulation would be to minimise addiction. Someone from the slums is more likely to get addicted if the local dealer gives them a syringe full of who knows how much heroin to stick in their arms. This situation would be avoided with a regulated market.

gigastar said:
3) Its not just for thier own safety, its for the safety of those around them too.
See my point above but let me add that locking people up for possession doesn't protect anyone, it makes it worse. People are going to get drugs anyway. I would rather people buy cleanly produced methylphenidate from a legal vendor than crystal meth from a drug dealer.

lacktheknack said:
I say to leave all recreational drugs as illegal, but instead of tossing addicts in prison for decades, how about a few months of enforced rehab/detox?
Drug users and addicts are not synonymous.
 

lacktheknack

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CrystalViolet said:
lacktheknack said:
I say to leave all recreational drugs as illegal, but instead of tossing addicts in prison for decades, how about a few months of enforced rehab/detox?
Drug users and addicts are not synonymous.
You know how there's a long and bitter fight about whether guns should be legal for civilians to carry? With the argument that the majority of gun owners use them for display/self-defense purposes only and shouldn't have their rights infringed on, while the other side says that it's irrelevant because the other chunk that uses guns irresponsibly causes too much damage?

Well, the same logic can be applied to drug users, except instead of a large amount of responsible people being pulled down by a thin slice of irresponsible people, it's a tiny number of responsible drug users being crushed by a mind-boggling number of addicts. So much so that I find it hard to imagine why any non-drug-users would support legal drugs.

And if you're going to say that legalized drugs would cause a greater number of responsible users... sorry, I don't believe you.
 

L. Declis

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sanquin said:
Selling of soft drugs or drugs that aren't highly addictive: Legalize it. People should be able to buy drugs like these whenever they want. (Weed, Ecstasy, LSD, Tobacco, etc)
Ecstacy... Isn't that the drug where people behave dangerously and sometimes forget to drink water long enough to kill themselves?
LSD... Isn't that the drug where a guy shoved about half a foot of blanket down his wife's throat thinking she was a snake?
Tobacco... Isn't that the already legal and highly poisonous drug which kills people who are nearby, let alone taking it?
Hmmm...

Using of soft drugs/etc: Same as above. There should of course be regulations/laws on things like driving or operation of complicated machinery for this, though.
Selling hard drugs and highly addictive drugs: Criminalize this. These drugs mostly just destroy lives, even if the person themselves doesn't care any more by that point. I'm talking about drugs like Crystal Meth, Cocaine, Heroin, etc.
They're already illegal, and it does... nothing. In fact, it does more damage than if they were legal, for the illegal versions require you to fund illegal activities, tend to target the weak and poor and are more dangerous to use due to the fact that drug dealers don't precisely have standards for safety.

Maybe if they were legal, they'd be a lot safer, and we could have users monitored for their safety.

Using hard drugs/etc: Legalize it. As in, if you do get addicted, you can get help without any penalties.
Fair enough.

You may have noticed that I have condemned both the legalising side (encourages further use) and the criminalise it side (prohibition just doesn't work).

Not entirely sure there is a right side to this, however, I'd probably lean more on the legalise everything side, if only because it can be taxed, it can monitored, it can be kept safe and the users can be watched carefully. It also frees up police time, frees up jail space, produces extra taxes, leads to less bad situations, robs money from criminals... But it is also giving the go ahead for people to feed their dangerous urges with wild abandon, and all drugs can lead to harm for other people.

Personally, I am confused by weed is illegal, but alcohol is not (I mean, I understand it from a cultural standpoint, but logically, I've never heard of two stoners fighting outside a pub)

It's a tricky issue.
 

CrystalViolet

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lacktheknack said:
You know how there's a long and bitter fight about whether guns should be legal for civilians to carry? With the argument that the majority of gun owners use them for display/self-defense purposes only and shouldn't have their rights infringed on, while the other side says that it's irrelevant because the other chunk that uses guns irresponsibly causes too much damage?
Except that my dropping acid doesn't kill people.

lacktheknack said:
it's a tiny number of responsible drug users being crushed by a mind-boggling number of addicts.
This is a complete fallacy that you've pulled from your ass. The difference between the responsible users and the addicts is that you hear about the addicts because they're addicts. This is like Fox news calling for a ban on violent video games because school shooters had a copy of Mad World.

lacktheknack said:
So much so that I find it hard to imagine why any non-drug-users would support legal drugs.
Because criminalising drug use is both morally reprehensible and practically ineffective. Because people are going to use drugs and it would better to see them use clean drugs in a safe environment with appropriate controls in a culture that respects them.

lacktheknack said:
And if you're going to say that legalized drugs would cause a greater number of responsible users... sorry, I don't believe you.
You don't have to, we have more than enough data from Portugal to suggest a trend.
 

Rabbitboy

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I think that softdrugs should be completely legalized and you can't be a criminal for carrying around drugs for personal use. Drug addicts are not criminals they are sick people. You don't throw sick people in prison, you try to help them. Not to mention making something illegal makes it cooler to do in the eyes of some people.

Now I do think that harddrugs are harmful enough that manufacturing and distributing them should remain illigal.
 

Zannah

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Jan 27, 2010
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The damage that drugs (illegal and legal like what goes over pharmacy tables in the us, or smoking or alcohol) do to our society is tremendous. "but it's just so relaxing man" is not an argument to not ban the shit, all of it.
 

Jonluw

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To be honest, this is one of the matters where I just can't bring myself to respect people who disagree with me unless they somehow make a really good case for themselves showing they are educated on thr issue and actually thinking critically.

The first point that must be acknowledged is this: All intoxicants are drugs. That includes the legal ones such as caffeine, nicotine, and alcohol.

Secondly: There are benefits to drug use. If there weren't, no one would be using drugs. I'm willing to bet half the people in this thread drink alcohol or coffee somewhat regularly, so you should be familiar with the reasoning behind using drugs. Weighing the benefits against the downsides must be done on an individual basis.

Thirdly: Drug use, in itself, is not a problem. Drug abuse or misuse is a problem.

The question of how we should regulate drugs is not at its core about how we should stop people from using drugs, it's about how we should stop people from abusing drugs. Some people believe drug use automatically leads to drug abuse, and sadly this view has become prevalent to the point where the discussion is largely about "how do we stop people from using drugs".
The intuitive answer to that question is "make them illegal". However, it turns out legal status is a fairly poor predictor of demand for drugs. Drug demand is mostly determined by cultural attitudes toward the drug, as can be seen in the decline of use of the legal tobacco, versus the increasing popularity of illegal cannabis. This can also be demonstrated by looking back at alcohol prohibition, which brings me to the next point.

While prohibiting the use of a drug only slightly tempers demand, it completely removes supply from the legal market. This drives the value of the drug to unnatural levels, and ensures a lucrative market for the kind of person who is willing to break the law to earn money. I'm sure we're all familiar with cartels and their horrifying activities.

In other words, the cost of prohibiting a drug is creating a criminal subset of the population, and a great incentive for more serious criminal activity to cater to this subset, funneling money into cartel pockets. In addition to removing some degree of people's right to sovereignity over their bodies.
So the question is this:
Does prohibiting the drug cause a large enough benefit to the wellbeing of the population to justify this cost?

I believe very strongly the answer to this is "NO!", and I will explain why.

As I mentioned earlier, the goal is to stop abuse, not use in itself. What this means is that (no other factors taken into consideration) any measure taken to lower the use of a drug must succeed in lowering the overall number of users while keeping the proportion of users who abuse the drug at about the same level or lower.
In the case of prohibition, this is a very unlikely outcome.

It should be quite obvious that prohibiting a drug increases the proportion of drug users who use it in an unhealthy manner, and makes it more difficult for them to get help if they struggle with addiction, as seeking help means admitting a crime.

To begin with, prohibition means there is no quality control whatsoever. Addiction aside, using heroin is actually quite safe if you have a consistent quality product and know what you are doing. Prohibition makes both these impossible. Most heroin overdoses result from a user getting a purer product than they are used to, thus they unwittingly take a far larger dose than they thought, and die.
The quality of the drugs themselves isn't the only issue. The method of use is also a factor.
Prohibition means the drugs are unnaturally expensive, and their use has to be discrete.
The price of the habit is partly to blame for heroin addicts sharing needles, and thus a lot of the disease out there.
When it comes to cannabis, smoking is often the most discrete option, as it does not require conspicuous expensive apparatuses such as vaporizing does, and it can be done outdoors so it doesn't stink up your house like making edibles does. Due to prohibition, smoking from soda cans or plastic bottles are some of the most common ways to ingest cannabis. These happen to be the absolutely least healthy ways to use this drug.

In other words, even if prohibition did reduce the amount of people who use the drugs, it would greatly amplify the health risks assosciated with drug use. In addition to this, people have to hide their use from the people close to them, who would otherwise be the ones who would pick up developing drug abuse and help them. This means it is easier to fall into abuse during prohibition, and harder to get out of it.

It is not just family users have to hide from. It is only safe to admit to one's use in the company of other users. This aspect of oneself must be hidden from general society. The only truly safe company is other users. This serves to drive drug users further away from normal society, and deeper into a culture composed of only drug users, where standards of abuse are far higher, for instance smoking cannabis every day is seen as the standard behaviour.
In this culture your status as a criminal is accepted, and more dangerous activities, such as driving under the influence and doing harder drugs than you started out with, are normalized.

On top of all this, if you are ever caught by the police, the repercussions for your life can be very dire. It may even drive you into deeper crime and actual drug abuse. Meaning a lot of people will have problems caused by their drug use, without actually having abused the drug.

And while all these effects are in place, nobody is properly educated about the effects and dangers of the drugs they're taking.

Is it really not obvious that this approach to minimizing drug abuse is completely idiotic?


Do you want to know how to minimize drug abuse?
Here are some pointers:
Educate everyone honestly about the effects of different kinds of drugs and their dangers.
Distribute pure, quality controlled, drugs in different ways depending on their effects. For instance, sell alcohol, cannabis, and tobacco alongside each other in a state controlled outlet, where all alcohol is marked with ABV, and cannabis is marked with %THC and %CBD. Perhaps place upper limits on the amount of active ingredients. Place posters around the outlet, encouraging people to eat or vaporize cannabis (and if you ask me, some encouraging people to drop the alcohol and try cannabis instead).
Amphetamines, cocaine, and similar may be obtained at pharmacies (or perhaps behind the counter at the state outlet) if you can prove you do not have a history of aggression.
Opiates, such as heroin, may be bought at the same place if you have been to the doctor and commited yourself to twice-yearly checkups, where you will be evaluated for signs of an addiction causing trouble for your life. Opiates may not be bought in amounts that make daily use possible.
Psychedelics may be bought from behind the counter if you can prove you are not at risk for mental illness.

Then, run campaigns to encourage people to use drugs sparingly. Do not allow advertisments for drugs. Highly discourage people from trying physiologically addictive substances. Keep the prices lower than the current black market, but high enough to be a luxury.

Remove the taboo from addiction, and offer extensive help to people struggling with their drug use (which, remember, should be fewer than currently).

And last but not least: remove the stigma assosciated with mental problems, and offer therapy as a part of universal healthcare. Drug abuse isn't caused by drugs. That's just a popular myth that has survived because people know very little about drugs, and it supports the current system. A completely content person leading a happy life isn't going to try heroin once and then suddenly become an addict. The people who develop problems with drugs are the ones who have had hard lives, for which drugs offer respite. These are incidentally often the people on the fringe of society who will use drugs whether they're legal or not, so addictive personalities are the ones a prohibition is least likely to deter. So much for lowering the proportion of abuse. Addictive drugs are so called because they are physiologically addictive. That is to say that if you use them frequently for a long enough time, you will experience withdrawal symptoms if you stop using them.
However, for it to get to that point, the drug has to get you psychologically addicted. This mostly only happens if you have psychological problems making the drug use so valuable to you that you'll do it frequently enough to get physiologically addicted.
This is why mental healthcare plus education about what responsible drug use is, is the best way to lower the amount of drug abusers.

Prohibition doesn't do shit but funnel all the drug money which could have gone to the state into the pockets of crooks, while making sure that people use drugs irresponsibly, and fucking with the lives of everyone who does drugs in the name of deterring people from abuse, while doing the exact opposite by disincentivizing getting help.

Fuck prohibition. It is making the world significantly worse. And I wish you poor sods who argue in favour of it would see that.