Poll: Do you believe in a higher power?

[Kayevcee]

Yeah, I thought we'd been over that

However, the Old and New Testaments clearly show that something went off in God's noggin. Either he a) Actually wrote the Old Testament and decided being a prick wasn't going to work anymore. b) Did not write the Old Testament and then sent Jesus to clear things up (This would invalidate a large chunk of the Abrahamic faiths). Or c) None of it was written by a divine hand and is therefore subject to the individual prejudices of the men who write it.

I've never considered the Bible to be anything other than option c), myself. I don't think that invalidates the philosophies and wisdom found in it, but I feel it should always be considered in the context of the time in which it was written or, before it was written down, first told. Every human observation contains the bias of the viewer- it's why there are four gospels, I suppose. An attempt at verification.

There is nothing really stopping anyone from coming in a few years from now, claiming to be the son of God, and then radically changing the doctrine to something else.

Oh, there have been people doing that for centuries. What's stopping them is usually people dismissing them as nutters. Hell, when Jesus started preaching in his home town he got laughed out of the synagogue- he was just the carpenter from down the road. It would take a very special individual with a very powerful message to turn enough heads to make waves of the kind you're suggesting within a major religion.

However, many people have and do regard the letters as gospel and have acted upon them. Even in the Protestant Churches, you have horrifying amounts of literalism and gay bashing (Jerry Falwell comes to mind). Isn't this just another case of the clergy preaching something different to suit their needs? The Reformation did not solve anything along those lines.

This is true. The only way followers can protect themselves is by familiarising themselves with their own scriptures and staying alert for people who would lead them astray. As I see it, the sum total message of Christianity can be summed up in three words: "love one another". People can quote chapter and verse till they're teal in the face but if they come out with *anything* that contradicts those three simple words they are wrong, and if I found myself in their presence I would tell them as much.

However, this is just the utopia that I'll be delivered to if I follow your faith. Something even you seem to want to avoid.

I wouldn't say I want to avoid it- just that I don't see it as being realistic. Modern societies (sort of) function when people from a wide range of ideologies can agree on enough to get by. We'll never agree on everything, and maybe that's for the best because, as we've seen in this thread, it keeps people thinking about their own values

This exposes another problem with the mutable doctrine. Only a few centuries ago, 'be baptised or be buggered' was a widely accepted sentiment. There is nothing stopping it from being changed in the future, so long as you have someone who claims to have a direct link to God.

I'd rather have mutable doctrine than immutable, since having a set of rules that *cannot* be changed or reinterpreted can lead to either apathy or fundamentalism. Again, it would be assuming that their organisation has created perfect rule in an imperfect universe. One good thing about our cynical modern society is that anyone claiming to 'have a direct link to God' really has their work cut out for them proving it.

On Jesus stating that as a fact. Is it possible for him to have been self-appointed. Outside of the OT prophets, no one really said he was the son of God other than his followers. It is also possible that he simply shaped his ministry to correspond with the OT's prohpets and thus net him more followers.

Entirely possible. In the end it's a question of faith- to believe the testimony of the followers, or not.

Anyway, I've got some atmospheric chemistry papers to pick useful results out of, so I'm out for the night. It's been a pleasure, folks. John, many thanks for the civil and well thought out discussion.

EDIT: And by that I don't mean "I ahve the lastword! AHAHAHAHA!", just that I won't be able to reply again till probably tomorrow evening and by then the discussion will have moved on. Case in point- the concept of hell. Apparently.

-Nick

 

[AnGeL.SLayer]

lol yes hell. Oo0o fire and flames o0o...or Ice..some people tend to believe it's ice. *loves on Dantes inferno* and Nugoo I'm not sure if your with me or against me. Maybe I'm just a little on the blond side tonight. and Steve don't you think you'd feel pretty silly in the end? I dunno perhaps that's just me.


^_^

 

[BlueMage]

I'm curious as to know what you all would do if God, which ever one you choose, shows up before you. What would say? "Oh...well I was wrong, my bad. I believe now that I can see and touch you." You can't say that when you stand before him, you will be cast into hell.

Don't see why that'd be the case - God's the forgiving sort now. If God Himself appeared before me and said "Yeah, I do actually exist you know." my response would be along the lines of "well shit, my bad."

 

[Nugoo]

lol yes hell. Oo0o fire and flames o0o...or Ice..some people tend to believe it's ice. *loves on Dantes inferno* and Nugoo I'm not sure if your with me or against me. Maybe I'm just a little on the blond side tonight. and Steve don't you think you'd feel pretty silly in the end? I dunno perhaps that's just me.


^_^

Probably against, sorry. I don't believe in God because I haven't been presented with sufficient evidence. If I was, I'd change my mind.

 

[Anton P. Nym]

and Steve don't you think you'd feel pretty silly in the end?

Perhaps... but no more so than a devout Presbyterian having to explain himself to Quetzalcoatl.

-- Steve

 

[AnGeL.SLayer]

I'm curious as to know what you all would do if God, which ever one you choose, shows up before you. What would say? "Oh...well I was wrong, my bad. I believe now that I can see and touch you." You can't say that when you stand before him, you will be cast into hell.

Don't see why that'd be the case - God's the forgiving sort now. If God Himself appeared before me and said "Yeah, I do actually exist you know." my response would be along the lines of "well shit, my bad."

Did you read my other posts? He is forgiving but within reason. To deny him is a sin. To change your mind once you see him isn't going to count you could say. He wants to see who will believe in FAITH.

People, what don't you get about the concept of FAITH? I'm sorry but the whole point is to believe without proof or evidence of any sort other than the bible.


Let me ask this too, if it was like back in the OT, when God would strike you down/punish you almost instantly for the sins you committed, would you still do it? Just curious.


^_^

 

[Easykill]

I'm curious as to know what you all would do if God, which ever one you choose, shows up before you. What would say? "Oh...well I was wrong, my bad. I believe now that I can see and touch you." You can't say that when you stand before him, you will be cast into hell.

Don't see why that'd be the case - God's the forgiving sort now. If God Himself appeared before me and said "Yeah, I do actually exist you know." my response would be along the lines of "well shit, my bad."

Did you read my other posts? He is forgiving but within reason. To deny him is a sin. To change your mind once you see him isn't going to count you could say. He wants to see who will believe in FAITH.

People, what don't you get about the concept of FAITH? I'm sorry but the whole point is to believe without proof or evidence of any sort other than the bible.


Let me ask this too, if it was like back in the OT, when God would strike you down/punish you almost instantly for the sins you committed, would you still do it? Just curious.


^_^

Sorry, but his was what made me stop being a Christian. Faith. Everything demands faith. All of the hundreds of religions out there demand faith. How do you choose which one to have faith in? People just choose the one they were raised into, or the one they like the best. Pascal's bet is flawed because it acts as if there are only two options. It seems like the best bet is to be agnostic and hope for a reasonable god, and that way you don't waste your life worshiping a false god. And that's not even mentioning that god seems to be suffering from dissociative identity disorder.

 

[Raziel398]

I'm curious as to know what you all would do if God, which ever one you choose, shows up before you. What would say? "Oh...well I was wrong, my bad. I believe now that I can see and touch you." You can't say that when you stand before him, you will be cast into hell.

Don't see why that'd be the case - God's the forgiving sort now. If God Himself appeared before me and said "Yeah, I do actually exist you know." my response would be along the lines of "well shit, my bad."

Did you read my other posts? He is forgiving but within reason. To deny him is a sin. To change your mind once you see him isn't going to count you could say. He wants to see who will believe in FAITH.

People, what don't you get about the concept of FAITH? I'm sorry but the whole point is to believe without proof or evidence of any sort other than the bible.


Let me ask this too, if it was like back in the OT, when God would strike you down/punish you almost instantly for the sins you committed, would you still do it? Just curious.


^_^

[Atheist here]
To answer your question, nope, I wouldn't, because I would have evidence to suggest God exists, I mean, the smiting would deter me, but thats like saying jaitime or execution would deter me from crime, of course it would.

Secondly, whats so great about faith? I mean, jst because you can't disprove something doesn't mean you should beleive in it. There is as much proof for God as for this invisible intangible flying cupcake floating past my ear, only difference is I don't get Prophets telling me about the glory of cupcakes =P

And now to post on other threads so I don't look like a one post wonder!

 

[SimpleReally]

If you're looking for proof that God exists then look no further.

http://www.islam101.com/science/embryo.html

This is a 1400 year old book that accurately describes the development of the embryo, something humanity has only been able to about 50 years ago.

interesting isn't it? i find it hard to think that such detailed description could have been by chance. could it be that this book really is divine ?

I'd love to hear your theories about this

 

[Parallel Streaks]

I believe there is someone or something up there, and he's laughing at me. I believe that there is some kind of force to the universe, something that created it all, but I also believe in the Big Bang as one of those uncomfortable facts that can sit on any religious argument throughout history. I like to find the middle ground, the Bible says God (or some sort of force) Said and or implied let there be light, couldn't that be a metaphor for the Big Bang? The creation of everything was god turning on the Lights and getting rid of the firmament? I know some hard-core religious fanatics will say "No, god just went Click" and some Athiest extremists will say "The Big Bangw as just a coagulation of events, and if you don't believe what I believe you are stupid." I have no problem with religious people or athiests, what I take offense to is trying to force me into believing, to people trying to change me into them. You want to know the truth? I'm a Satanist, and no that isn't the whole sacrificing Goats deal, that's Luciferism, what I believe is that I should put me in front of everything else, but not people, I help my fellow man, but I simply laze about if possible. I care about myself and I'm Vain, two features that could get you renounced in the church, and I care about phsyical possessions. But my general philosophy is: you might aswell believe in some deity, because if you die and it turns out that there is nothing out there, then you have lost nothing as long as you just believed, but not worshipped.

Peace out folks,
Marc -x-

 

[AnGeL.SLayer]

I believe there is someone or something up there, and he's laughing at me. I believe that there is some kind of force to the universe, something that created it all, but I also believe in the Big Bang as one of those uncomfortable facts that can sit on any religious argument throughout history. I like to find the middle ground, the Bible says God (or some sort of force) Said and or implied let there be light, couldn't that be a metaphor for the Big Bang? The creation of everything was god turning on the Lights and getting rid of the firmament? I know some hard-core religious fanatics will say "No, god just went Click" and some Athiest extremists will say "The Big Bangw as just a coagulation of events, and if you don't believe what I believe you are stupid." I have no problem with religious people or athiests, what I take offense to is trying to force me into believing, to people trying to change me into them. You want to know the truth? I'm a Satanist, and no that isn't the whole sacrificing Goats deal, that's Luciferism, what I believe is that I should put me in front of everything else, but not people, I help my fellow man, but I simply laze about if possible. I care about myself and I'm Vain, two features that could get you renounced in the church, and I care about phsyical possessions. But my general philosophy is: you might aswell believe in some deity, because if you die and it turns out that there is nothing out there, then you have lost nothing as long as you just believed, but not worshipped.

Peace out folks,
Marc -x-

lol honestly thats where I pretty much stand as well. Surprise surprise. I was just debating the religious side a lot more because no one else really was. I wanted a really good debate here. hehe

When you get down to it all the bible demands is faith. and you cant even do that. why? You can't just pick and choose whichever one meets your quota to live the type of life you want to. You have to go with what you believe to be right. what you feel to be right. It's believing with good faith. That's what it all really is.

I think you are all failing to Imagen the concept of hell. It is ever lasting torment for your immortal soul. Do you think you have a soul if you don't believe in God? Think of the most unbearable pain you've ever been in. Now times that again and again and again... It is pain that is always brought to another level. It never gets to the point where it is numbing.

My friend wrote a story about a ninja who spent his whole life trying to get the most assassination hits. He marked their souls with notches on his sword. One day he was working his was through the building of his next hit and got taken from behind by another ninja. He awoke to find himself in hell. It was a black room upon his first glance but as he looked around he started to see people form out of the darkness. These people where all those he had killed and wronged in his life. As the first man approached he tried to attack but found himself helpless against the man and the rest of the people. They ripped him apart in hatred. The ninja was happy for it to be over with but he soon realized it was just the beginning. He awoke again in the center of the mob, in one piece. They came at him again, this time the pain even more excruciating than before. He couldn't believe it and he knew his fate was to keep doing this forever.

hehe good story one of my favorites.

Secondly, whats so great about faith? I mean, jst because you can't disprove something doesn't mean you should beleive in it. There is as much proof for God as for this invisible intangible flying cupcake floating past my ear, only difference is I don't get Prophets telling me about the glory of cupcakes =P

LOL I Love You. Now lets go make cupcakes together. lol


^_^

 

[Singing Gremlin]

If you're looking for proof that God exists then look no further.

http://www.islam101.com/science/embryo.html

This is a 1400 year old book that accurately describes the development of the embryo, something humanity has only been able to about 50 years ago.

interesting isn't it? i find it hard to think that such detailed description could have been by chance. could it be that this book really is divine ?

I'd love to hear your theories about this

Well, arguably you could find out quite easily if you had a knife, a lot of pregnant women and were really sick.

and Steve don't you think you'd feel pretty silly in the end?

"Yes, welcome to hell. Atheists over here, yes I bet you're feeling like right pillocks now aren't you?"

 

[SimpleReally]

If you're looking for proof that God exists then look no further.

http://www.islam101.com/science/embryo.html

This is a 1400 year old book that accurately describes the development of the embryo, something humanity has only been able to about 50 years ago.

interesting isn't it? i find it hard to think that such detailed description could have been by chance. could it be that this book really is divine ?

I'd love to hear your theories about this

Well, arguably you could find out quite easily if you had a knife, a lot of pregnant women and were really sick.

Since the embryological events described occur within the 1st week of fertility, the woman won't even know she's pregnant, are you seriously arguing that ancient Arabs lined up all women who recently had sex, cut them open, located the tiny embryo, identified the stages of development, arranged them in the right order and then just for kicks, added that the earth was not flat and described the water cycle without getting a single scientific fact wrong.
Man they have a lot of spare time those Arabs

 

[John Galt]

Entirely possible. In the end it's a question of faith- to believe the testimony of the followers, or not.

Anyway, I've got some atmospheric chemistry papers to pick useful results out of, so I'm out for the night. It's been a pleasure, folks. John, many thanks for the civil and well thought out discussion.

EDIT: And by that I don't mean "I ahve the lastword! AHAHAHAHA!", just that I won't be able to reply again till probably tomorrow evening and by then the discussion will have moved on. Case in point- the concept of hell. Apparently.

-Nick

Don't leave me! Noooooo...

Oh well, it's been fun. Even though we're still just as adamant about our stances, it's been a nice way to pass time between Richard Dawkins clips on youtube.

 

[josh797]

wow this is awesome, im happy to find other people believe in god. but i wonder how many people are part of organized religion here. it seems angel slayer and simple really are both. well im another one. im an orthadox jew. believe in god and the chosen people and all that, and i do welcome questions, if you have any. i beleive in god and there is a definite reason, however it has a longggggg explanation having to do with evidence and logic and sci3ence and a whole lot of things, but anyway im interested to hear any questions, also if any of you guys are jewish in any way, let me know, always love to talk with a brother.

 

[BlueMage]

I'm curious as to know what you all would do if God, which ever one you choose, shows up before you. What would say? "Oh...well I was wrong, my bad. I believe now that I can see and touch you." You can't say that when you stand before him, you will be cast into hell.

Don't see why that'd be the case - God's the forgiving sort now. If God Himself appeared before me and said "Yeah, I do actually exist you know." my response would be along the lines of "well shit, my bad."

Did you read my other posts? He is forgiving but within reason. To deny him is a sin. To change your mind once you see him isn't going to count you could say. He wants to see who will believe in FAITH.

People, what don't you get about the concept of FAITH? I'm sorry but the whole point is to believe without proof or evidence of any sort other than the bible.


Let me ask this too, if it was like back in the OT, when God would strike you down/punish you almost instantly for the sins you committed, would you still do it? Just curious.


^_^

Hells no - I value living, and when there's *ahem* a consistently active and belligerent deity on the loose, I'm going to do whatever I have to keep on His good side.

But this is no longer the case.

All sins can be forgiven - if you are genuinely sorry for what you have done. Christ's sacrifice is such that ALL humanity is saved, if they're willing to accept their salvation. And it doesn't matter if you accept it now, or at the hour of your death - God's love is boundless, as demonstrated by the sacrifice of His Son.

Yeah, I was raised Catholic.

 

[Fire Daemon]

People say it is impossible to not have faith in god because the idea is absurd, but you have faith that the sun will rise, faith that flowers will grow, faith that babies will cry, faith that the birds will sing etc.

People hold faith in science because science controls these things.

Is god science?

 

[000Ronald]

I've taken a long time to say this becasue I need to chose my words carefully.

There have been certain things in my life I cannot just shrug off as a coincidence. There are certain things that happen in the world that I cannot just dismiss as luck. While most of the people in my life have been f***wads, there have been people in my life who have done more good than anyone could undo. All this leaves me to belive that there is a God in heaven and he wants what is best for us.

That being said, I do not ascribe to any church, and have serious problems with most of them, Catholic in particular. Churches seem to me be churches of men more than churches of God (this holding especially true for Catholics). I instead study the Bible and take from it what I will. I have had very heated arguments (again, catholics) about things I simply don't belive, which I will not go into. What's more, some of the things people do in the name of God leave a sick taste in my mouth. I'll stay out of Church. I do what I will.

That's my two cents. Apologies abound.

 

[Joe]

Atheist here. I remain hopeful, but I also remain rational. I'd like to think there's more to it than what we've observed, but the fun part of looking at the universe scientifically means you can keep looking.

I'll spare my thoughts on religion, but I'd like to affirm I'm capable of living a mostly moral life without religious direction. (I also realize most of our Western morals have been based on hundreds of years of theocratic doctrine. Irony!)

That said, I live my life for what's here and now. I figure I've got about 80-100 years to get as much out of existence as I can, and I'd rather not waste too much time. I personally think of my lack of faith as an affirmation that what I do matters here, and therefore I have a vested responsibility to make the world around me better.