Poll: Do you believe in any sort of fate?

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zombiejoe

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Sep 2, 2009
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Simple question. Do you believe in any kind of destiny or fate?

I suppose it's not THAT simple of a question, as it can dive into philosophy, faith, ect, but here are my two cents.

I don't like the idea that things have been predetermined. I don't think it has ever sat right with me. Wouldn't destiny imply that a rapist rapes someone because the universe made him, or that a killer has killed someone because he was always meant to, and nothing could be prevented? If that's the case, why should we care if bad things happen if they're supposed to happen? And when you fail at something, it might be easing on the mind to say that it was out of your power, but I'd rather be able to know it was my own fault if I messed up and improve from there.

But maybe I'm just thinking about it in the wrong way. What do you all think?
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

I never asked for this
Sep 8, 2011
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Everyone has free will. But your free will can be limited by a lot of things. Including other people's free will.
 

Euryalus

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Jun 30, 2012
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Well... We shouldn't care. We don't care. Not in the sense that its a choice. Everything that happens according to a strict determinism viewpoint is just a series of physics interactions that are theoretically completely predictable.

Much like how you could calculate where a thrown ball will land if you know certain initial conditions.

...Quantum mechanics has caused problems with that kind of idea though. The completely (maybe only seemingly) random actions of the particles at times is at odds with the kind of ordered interactions the idea requires.

I'm far more on the "radically free will" exists side of the debate if you're curious. In part due to a paper I read once.
 

Foolery

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Jun 5, 2013
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Nah, I'm more of a things happen because they happen, and free will kind of guy. I somewhat like the concept. But I think attempting to create meaning and context out of just about anything is simply a coping mechanism our species uses to make life and the circumstances surrounding us more tolerable.
 

Clowndoe

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Aug 6, 2012
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Everything is predetermined, because atoms (and until proven to the contrary all other matter larger or smaller) behave according to a set of rules, bouncing off one another in a way that would be predictable given enough knowledge of what drives them. Our consciousness is a reflection of the interaction of our brain cells, [etc] which is entirely the result of how atoms combine and interact with one another. For all I know, Quantum Mechanics may be random, but that doesn't change the fact that we are at it's mercy.

This is from an agnostic's point of view, and therefore with the assumption that there's no such thing as a soul. Although even if there were such a thing as a soul, I'd still feel the same way although the explanation is a bit harder to vulgarize. For more on that, I recommend Schopenhauer's "On the Freedom of the Will," which is outlined on Wikipedia, an essay who's conclusion matches my own, although with many differences in some fundamental areas (He claims virtue cannot be taught, whereas I think it's more likely to be taught than innate).

But since no one is going to actually read it, I'll have to do my best:

People can do as they please, but they cannot choose what they want. People make decisions based on what they happen to desire - their motivation, and on how they reason to achieve those things - judgement. Both things can be either innate and taught, for example, your desire to eat is innate, your love of video games is "learnt" in this case. Everyone always does something for a reason, no matter how insignificant or baffling to the observer, and given your preferences and the logic you used you can be expected to always come to the same conclusion and make the same decision if someone else were to rewind and watch you make a decision again.

Now for a few examples people like to bring up as contradiction:

Say you wake up and have a choice between two cereals. Each seems equally enticing and so you have to think about which one to take. It may look like it can go either way, but in reality you were always going to go for the Cocoa Puffs because at the last second you felt a slight craving for chocolate, stronger than your current taste for honey & nut. What else could you have done? Not have a craving for chocolate? What if you realize that you might have been better off with Raisin Bran? Doesn't that contradict it? Well not quite, because I would conjecture that at that time your thoughts turned towards health, and your need for health trumped your need for indulgence this time. Finally, one might say that thinking about it was a decision, and that was just someone making the right choice, and the cycle continues with the obvious (I hope by now) "But did you decide to have good judgement, any more than you decided to be good or bad at algebra?" That's why Schopenhauer says (paraphrase) "You can do what you want, but you can't choose what you want."

A lot of people don't like this way of thinking because it's depressing, but I disagree. For one thing, if you ask me it's the lesser of two evils. The alternative to everything happening necessarily as a consequence of something else is that decisions come at random, effectively a coin-toss each time. But if everything is a coin-toss, how can you judge someone as being good or bad?

Another positive is that I can forgive people for being what I consider bigots. I mean, if no one taught them otherwise, they couldn't possibly have been un-bigots unless they were just hard-wired from birth to be deep thinkers and came to the conclusion on their own. And it would be the height of arrogance to think that born into their shoes that one could do better.

Religious people might have a problem in that this entails that you were doomed to Hell or Heaven from the start (well, Calvinists won't mind), and since this is religious I can't touch it.

And finally, there are people who dislike this philosophy for sentimental reasons. Well, tough luck, but wanting really hard to be fully autonomous won't make it true. But I'm a glass-half-full guy, I can take it same as a roller-coaster ride. Sorry OP, I never meant for this to be an essay, but I had to defend my point.
 

Klaflefalumpf

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Oct 3, 2010
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I believe there is, yes. I can put it down to simple mathematics.

Predicting what can happen in the next few seconds is 'fairly' easy. Provided you know all the variables that is.

Engineering/programming principles tend to support this if you're familiar with either. On the physical level you can make predictions, if a building will stay standing etc. So apply this to brain chemistry too, that's a series of chemical reactions than can be calculated assuming you know EVERY variable.

Basically you can predict what will happen from now by knowing every single variable and factor anywhere in the world. From that information, you could do the same for the next second and so on.

Three things stopping us now: Not knowing the variables, the calculations to determine the outcome and the means to process that much data.

(There are probably flaws to this theory, but I haven't looked into it and I'm not arrogant enough to think I'm the first person to ever think it.)
 

Thaluikhain

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Jan 16, 2010
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Clowndoe said:
Everything is predetermined, because atoms (and until proven to the contrary all other matter larger or smaller) behave according to a set of rules, bouncing off one another in a way that would be predictable given enough knowledge of what drives them. Our consciousness is a reflection of the interaction of our brain cells, [etc] which is entirely the result of how atoms combine and interact with one another. For all I know, Quantum Mechanics may be random, but that doesn't change the fact that we are at it's mercy.
Hey? If some things are random, how can they be pre-determined? Sure, that's not to say free will exists, but that's another issue.
 

Da Orky Man

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Apr 24, 2011
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Though I'm not overly fond of the idea, everything is probably predetermined. Since every object of every size acts accordingly to a set of unbreakable rules that we would know as physics, then it should be theoretically possibly to be able to calculate everything that has, is or will happen, if you have the original set of parameters. Since that holds up, at least for now, then everything must be predetermined.
 

krazykidd

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Mar 22, 2008
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I do believe everything is predetermined . Not to mean we don't have free will and choice. We choose to do the things we do, but the choice we make is predetermined ( if that makes any sense ). I don't hav any scientific sources for that , but i believe that based on past experiences . Iv'e had dreams of random things that happened in the distant future , and that actually happened . Anyways , i that's what i think.
 

Hagi

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Apr 10, 2011
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I consider myself to be both deterministic as well as materialistic, as such I don't believe in free will and do believe everything is predetermined. I'm not even sure what exactly free will is supposed to be anyway, it mostly seems to be such a horrendously vague concept as to avoid any type of intellectual scrutiny.

Way I see it it's very simple. Every choice you make you make based on the knowledge you have at the time and you always choose the option that, given what you know and value at that exact moment, find best. As such at any single point in time there's only a single option and thus no choice anyway. At a later time you might make another choice, but at that moment you couldn't have made any other choice.

Also, I must add my support to Schopenhauer's "On the Freedom of Will". Something that should definitely be read if you're interested in philosophy like this. The man makes a lot of very good points ( also a lot of utterly horrible points, still gotta use your own brain when reading ).
 

Hagi

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Apr 10, 2011
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thaluikhain said:
Hey? If some things are random, how can they be pre-determined? Sure, that's not to say free will exists, but that's another issue.
The two don't necessarily contradict each other.

Something that can, in theory, be predicted but you, and everyone else involved, lack any knowledge about to make said prediction is both random and pre-determined.

We don't know how the observer effect works in Quantum Mechanics, so it's random. That doesn't mean it's unknowable and unbound by rules that would allow us to predict it. I mean it might be, we don't know. Or it might not be, also possible.
 

Jacques Joseph

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Nov 15, 2012
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Went with the "predetermined" response but - according to me - it is just as wrong as the others that you listed...

One thing to realize is this: on the level of pure and simple physics (be they atomic, quantum or whatever), the two options are "predetermined" or "completely random"; for physics, "free will" does not make any sense, as it is some weird and impossible-to-describe middle ground in which outer circumstances do influence your choice without determining it completely. That is important to realize because, as I think, though it may seem paradoxical, free will and determinism do not contradict one another, they are just characteristics corresponding to wholly different levels of organization of matter (that´s very briefly put but in a way I see it as equivalent to the relation between the soul and the matter of the brain as described in Davidson´s theory of anomal monism).

Another point of putting this is: free will means you could have done something otherwise. So far so good but what does THAT mean? That you could have done otherwise, were the circumstances different? Well, of course! But then there is no contradiction with determinism. Or that you could have done otherwise under the absolute same circumstances? But then who is to tell whether you could since you didn´t? At this point, usually, theories about parallel universes come up - but we are in this universe and have no way of looking into any parallel one, so given the universe we´re in you did the only thing that you could have done. Which does not contradict free will, as it is the only thing you could have done exactly because it is the one you chose to do.

Plus Schopenhauer´s "On the Freedom of the Will", as mentioned, which basically makes a similar point from a completely different approach.

So, in my humble opinion, the bottom line is - the question does not make sense.

PS: Also, it is worth noting that modern scientific determinism and "fate", as perceived in most ancient cultures and mythologies, though similar on the surface, are actually completely different things.
 

piinyouri

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Mar 18, 2012
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Well, there's free will of course.
But then who's to say it's free will? What if the choices we think we are making for ourselves is exactly where our fate will lead us in the end?
 

Ratties

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May 8, 2013
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People hate not being in control. Really just another form of it. Of course they feel it softens the blow, if they just say it's fate. That's alot like believing in Karma. Eventually you have to stop and ask yourself, well how is it regulated then? Can't break it down at all, then it's bullshit to me. There is not a single person I have ran into that can explain the rules of Karma or fate. So how long does it take for fate to take it's course? Everything we do being included, or is it just the big stuff? Reminder to when it's going to happen? Very much bullshit to me. Everybody loves to look at some stuff with this romantic way of thinking, it just reeks of dog crap.
 

RedDeadFred

Illusions, Michael!
May 13, 2009
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I do not believe in fate. I mean, if I did, I could go rob a bank and simply say: "sorry, it was meant to be. It was fate. I had no control over it."
 

Wyes

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Aug 1, 2009
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Clowndoe said:
Everything is predetermined, because atoms (and until proven to the contrary all other matter larger or smaller) behave according to a set of rules, bouncing off one another in a way that would be predictable given enough knowledge of what drives them. Our consciousness is a reflection of the interaction of our brain cells, [etc] which is entirely the result of how atoms combine and interact with one another. For all I know, Quantum Mechanics may be random, but that doesn't change the fact that we are at it's mercy.

This is from an agnostic's point of view, and therefore with the assumption that there's no such thing as a soul. Although even if there were such a thing as a soul, I'd still feel the same way although the explanation is a bit harder to vulgarize. For more on that, I recommend Schopenhauer's "On the Freedom of the Will," which is outlined on Wikipedia, an essay who's conclusion matches my own, although with many differences in some fundamental areas (He claims virtue cannot be taught, whereas I think it's more likely to be taught than innate).

But since no one is going to actually read it, I'll have to do my best:

People can do as they please, but they cannot choose what they want. People make decisions based on what they happen to desire - their motivation, and on how they reason to achieve those things - judgement. Both things can be either innate and taught, for example, your desire to eat is innate, your love of video games is "learnt" in this case. Everyone always does something for a reason, no matter how insignificant or baffling to the observer, and given your preferences and the logic you used you can be expected to always come to the same conclusion and make the same decision if someone else were to rewind and watch you make a decision again.

Now for a few examples people like to bring up as contradiction:

Say you wake up and have a choice between two cereals. Each seems equally enticing and so you have to think about which one to take. It may look like it can go either way, but in reality you were always going to go for the Cocoa Puffs because at the last second you felt a slight craving for chocolate, stronger than your current taste for honey & nut. What else could you have done? Not have a craving for chocolate? What if you realize that you might have been better off with Raisin Bran? Doesn't that contradict it? Well not quite, because I would conjecture that at that time your thoughts turned towards health, and your need for health trumped your need for indulgence this time. Finally, one might say that thinking about it was a decision, and that was just someone making the right choice, and the cycle continues with the obvious (I hope by now) "But did you decide to have good judgement, any more than you decided to be good or bad at algebra?" That's why Schopenhauer says (paraphrase) "You can do what you want, but you can't choose what you want."

A lot of people don't like this way of thinking because it's depressing, but I disagree. For one thing, if you ask me it's the lesser of two evils. The alternative to everything happening necessarily as a consequence of something else is that decisions come at random, effectively a coin-toss each time. But if everything is a coin-toss, how can you judge someone as being good or bad?

Another positive is that I can forgive people for being what I consider bigots. I mean, if no one taught them otherwise, they couldn't possibly have been un-bigots unless they were just hard-wired from birth to be deep thinkers and came to the conclusion on their own. And it would be the height of arrogance to think that born into their shoes that one could do better.

Religious people might have a problem in that this entails that you were doomed to Hell or Heaven from the start (well, Calvinists won't mind), and since this is religious I can't touch it.

And finally, there are people who dislike this philosophy for sentimental reasons. Well, tough luck, but wanting really hard to be fully autonomous won't make it true. But I'm a glass-half-full guy, I can take it same as a roller-coaster ride. Sorry OP, I never meant for this to be an essay, but I had to defend my point.
I would say I agree with this. The other thing is that quantum mechanical effects don't really come into play when it comes to things on the scale of humans, including in our brains, so you can't make the argument that QM gives us the possibility for free will either.
 

Gennadios

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Aug 19, 2009
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I don't like the connotations of destiny or fate, seems "top loaded."

Meaning the assumption is that something was decided in the future and handed down to the present.

I believe that everything we live and do is a giant chain reaction. Sure, we think we're making our own decisions, but it's basically an internal calculation based on the information we have at hand. When doing calculations, if the values being fed are the same then the results will always be the same.

Basically, given the same circumstances and information in any given decision, we will always come to the same, most logical to us conclusion, so free will is kind of an illusion because of that.

EDIT: Basically what Clowndoe said, I should have posted AFTER reading the wall of text.
 

Jacques Joseph

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Nov 15, 2012
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Wyes said:
I would say I agree with this. The other thing is that quantum mechanical effects don't really come into play when it comes to things on the scale of humans, including in our brains, so you can't make the argument that QM gives us the possibility for free will either.
A friend specializing in QM once told me that the brain may actually be working like a quantum effects amplificator, making QM relevant even on our scale. Big emphasis on the "may", here, it still is pure speculation...
 

CpT_x_Killsteal

Elite Member
Jun 21, 2012
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I believe in a mixture of two things:
1. Shit happens
2. Cause and Effect

Some things in life are just random and unpredictable, while other things happen because someone (not a deity, that's ridiculous) made them happen, or that someone's actions set off a chain of events and/or decisions.
 

Jacques Joseph

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Nov 15, 2012
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RedDeadFred said:
I do not believe in fate. I mean, if I did, I could go rob a bank and simply say: "sorry, it was meant to be. It was fate. I had no control over it."
But then, it was also your fate to be judged and punished for it. See, I don´t think it really works this way. If you look at ancient stories dealing with fate, people in it never have some strange feeling they have to do something "because fate" and that they have no control over it. They always feel they are in control and do what they deem best, fate is the finality, the fact that it eventually leads to some meaningful end. In a way, fate requires free will as it would be nothing without people accepting it, fighting it or otherwise actively taking a stand.