Poll: Do you believe in any sort of fate?

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madwarper

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I suppose you could call it fate... But, I'd say it's more that I'm a fan of the multi-verse concept.

For example; You are walking down a path in the woods and come to a fork, what do you do? You take the left path.
Of course, you could have taken the right path, turned around and returned on the path you came from, stayed there indefinitely, or gone in any other direction, blazing your own trail. And, for all those possibilities, an alternate universe exists where that was the decision you made. But, this is the universe where you chose the left path.
 

dontlooknow

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Jacques Joseph said:
Wyes said:
I would say I agree with this. The other thing is that quantum mechanical effects don't really come into play when it comes to things on the scale of humans, including in our brains, so you can't make the argument that QM gives us the possibility for free will either.
A friend specializing in QM once told me that the brain may actually be working like a quantum effects amplificator, making QM relevant even on our scale. Big emphasis on the "may", here, it still is pure speculation...
I'm sure I've read a New Scientist article about a study into this, and I do like the idea. For me it's a mixture of the two: pre-existing ideas and behaviors of other people let me know that the McDonalds round the corner is open, but it's temporal variables in my brain that lead me to think "fuck it" and make the snap decision to by a large meal instead of a medium.
 

Thomas Barnsley

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Mar 8, 2012
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I believe in cause and effect. Things only happen because everything that happened up until then caused it to happen. Human choice is not exception; everything that you choose to do is the result of everything that happened to you up until that point, and if those exact circumstances were replicated you would do exactly the same thing.

Therefore, everything is predetermined.
 

his1nightmare

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Nov 8, 2010
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Philosophy is nothing short of a *****. Even if you insist on the existence of free will, by every choice you do you narrow the path you will walk in the future, constantly decreasing the amount of choices you consider appropriate.

However, if I had to pick a radiobutton, I would still take the last: free will.
 

Bluestorm83

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I believe that people have "free will" in as far as it is all of our own choices that lead us into a 100% predetermined endgame that is simply an interaction of all of these free wills. The Physical Universe is just one REALLY long-winded physical and chemical reaction.
 

MHR

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I believe that most things are constant. Little will occur that hasn't already been set into motion. For example, anyone born to the same exact means and upbringing will live the same, for good or ill, that anyone else in the exact same position would. And no, it does not mean everything "just happens" and it's out of anyone's control. Decisions that you make and act upon are one of those things that will occur as a product of your existence and circumstance.

However, I don't think there's any cogent rhyme or reason to it. Two men could live all their lives for the good of the world, one gets rewarded and lives till he dies well at 100 surrounded by hot babes, and the other trips and dies impaled on a rusty spike. That's just the breaks.
 

Scarim Coral

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Oct 29, 2010
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I'm somewhat inbetween, yes people do have free will but there are some fates that cannot be changed. Example- we will all died at some point in the future, no I don't mean like an apocalypse, I mean via natural (e.g. heart attack) or unnatural causes (died from a car crash).
 

Wyes

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Jacques Joseph said:
Wyes said:
I would say I agree with this. The other thing is that quantum mechanical effects don't really come into play when it comes to things on the scale of humans, including in our brains, so you can't make the argument that QM gives us the possibility for free will either.
A friend specializing in QM once told me that the brain may actually be working like a quantum effects amplificator, making QM relevant even on our scale. Big emphasis on the "may", here, it still is pure speculation...
That is the opposite of what the neuroscientists seem to be saying, and seems to disagree with the QM I've learnt, but I am not an expert (yet).
 

Eddie the head

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piinyouri said:
Well, there's free will of course.
But then who's to say it's free will? What if the choices we think we are making for ourselves is exactly where our fate will lead us in the end?
So? You still made the choices. The fact that your choices might be predetermined doesn't mean they have any less impact.

This is the kind of question the answer "quit fucking worrying about it" was made for. If you have free will, grate continue living your life how you want, if you don't grate continue living your life. Personally I'm going to spend my time wondering about questions that have answers that will help me in my day to day life. (whether that life is predetermined or not)
 

Jacques Joseph

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Wyes said:
I´m no expert either so I don´t really want to start arguing about things I don´t understand but I think quantum effects can in some cases be relevant on the macroscopic scale (if I´m not mistaken, that is what the whole thought experiment with Schrödinger´s cat is about). Though that may not necessarily be the case with the brain...

Yet the question of the relevance of QM on the mind-body problem as well as on the problem of free will seems to be an open one in physics, philosophy, neuroscience and related domains, as is documented here. I know the first link is Wikipedia but it still seems to be a well documented article with rather relevant references...

There it also mentions what I said earlier, namely that the main problem with QM and free will is that randomness is no closer to free will than determinism...
 

Wyes

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Jacques Joseph said:
Wyes said:
I´m no expert either so I don´t really want to start arguing about things I don´t understand but I think quantum effects can in some cases be relevant on the macroscopic scale (if I´m not mistaken, that is what the whole thought experiment with Schrödinger´s cat is about). Though that may not necessarily be the case with the brain...

Yet the question of the relevance of QM on the mind-body problem as well as on the problem of free will seems to be an open one in physics, philosophy, neuroscience and related domains, as is documented here. I know the first link is Wikipedia but it still seems to be a well documented article with rather relevant references...

There it also mentions what I said earlier, namely that the main problem with QM and free will is that randomness is no closer to free will than determinism...
More or less I agree with you, other than that Schrodinger's Cat has more to do with the nature of reality and measurements/observation than anything to do with QM at macroscopic scales.
 

Zhukov

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Dec 29, 2009
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As far as I can tell, everything is predetermined. Although I wouldn't call it destiny or fate. Those words have connotations that I do not agree with. Rather, everything is predetermined simply because everything is a series of inconceivably complex reactions.

As far as I know, all things in the universe act in accordance with observable and consistent rules. If one had enough information, the knowledge needed to apply it and enough time to do all the math, then one would be able to perfectly predict the future.

"What about human action and free will?"

This too I believe to be effectively pre-determined, but it's a bit harder to explain. I shall try anyway.

Imagine you are faced with a decision. Any decision. Great or small. For the sake of simplicity, we'll use a small example. Say... which shoes you are going to wear today.

You would consider your options, then make a decision based on a huge number of factors. It's cold today, so the sandals are out. Those new boots are nice, but you haven't worn them in yet, they still give you blisters and you just can't be fucked with that today. You could wear those new yellow sneakers, but yesterday your friend said they look ugly as hell. "Like you have giant marshmallows stuck to your feet", I believe was the exact phrase. Now, much as you hate to admit it, you feel self conscious about wearing them. So that leaves your old black sneakers. They're a bit battered, but they're warm, comfy and don't bear the slightest resemblance to giant marshmallows. So black sneakers it is. Of course, in real life this decision would probably take the merest fraction of a second and would involve even more factors, but I think you get the point. Your free will has been exercised and you have successfully decided which shoes to wear. Congratulations!

Now, imagine if that scenario and that decision were to be perfectly recreated and then made to occur a second time. And I do mean perfectly recreated. Same weather, same shoes, same blisters, same marshmallow comment. You're in the same mood, you've had the same amount of sleep. Everything is the same. Hell, you've even had the memory of the previous occasion neatly removed from your head (because the original decision didn't involve a memory of having made an identical decision in the past, neither can the second in order for it to be a perfect recreation.) Even your age has been miraculously reversed. For all intents and purposes, time has been rewound and you are once again choosing which shoes to wear.

My question is, would you make the same choice you did this first time?

I believe that you would. Decisions, the exercising of free will, are based on the circumstances that surround them (or, if you wish to be precise, they are based on the decider's understanding of the circumstances). So if the circumstances are completely known the outcome of the decision can also be known.

If you agree with this, then that means that free will is pre-determined. It is predictable in the same way that two billiard balls bouncing off one another at a particular angle are predictable.

This is why I believe that everything, including out much vaunted free will, is predetermined, even though it doesn't feel that way.
 

Calibanbutcher

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Nov 29, 2009
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I don't believe in anything supernatural, so why should I believe in predetermination?
We are pretty much free to shape our own lives in the boundaries set to us by our culture and the laws of physics.
 

GundamSentinel

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Aug 23, 2009
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I'ma determinist. I believe everything exists according to the laws of cause and effect (and some quantum weirdness thrown into the mix, but whatever). Supernatural fate? No. Things happen because the past made them so.
 

gnihton

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Mar 18, 2012
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Determinism all the way, although I suppose the way I model it must be slightly different to the typical idea since apparently things like the uncertainty of electron position refute classic determinism.

Also, I answered "Everything is predetermined" but I also could've answered that everyone has free will, because it all depends on what 'level' you examine things at.

People do have free will, at least how we perceive it, but the thing is, people simply aren't how we perceive them. We think we are making decisions, and we are to some extent, but we're also not, since people actually only exist as chemical interactions within a skull, with the chemical interactions being our decision making process. This is something we don't have any influence over, but it determines what we do with our 'free will'.

So on a human level, we do have free will as far as we're concerned. However, on a grand (or minute) scale we're entirely governed by the laws of the universe.

The universe works much like a procedural program due to natural laws, meaning that everything that will ever happen is already determined by what comes beforehand.
 

CrazyGirl17

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Sep 11, 2009
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I don't like to believe in fate in the since that we're not in control of our own lives, but we can at least influence it...
 

Vigormortis

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It seems there's no poll option for people like me.

I'm of a mind that fate is a ludicrous idea and as far removed from reality as one can get. Especially when one considers that "fate" implies that there is some "supernatural intelligence" determining the outcome of everything.

That said, I also believe "freewill" is an illusion. We make choices, yes, but we were going to make those choices all along. The course of events in this universe were set out at the moment the universe was first formed.

Not by some "supreme being". Rather, by simple physics.

I guess one might call me a determinist, but I'm not sure that fits my perspective entirely.
 

Yopaz

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Jun 3, 2009
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Calibanbutcher said:
I don't believe in anything supernatural, so why should I believe in predetermination?
We are pretty much free to shape our own lives in the boundaries set to us by our culture and the laws of physics.
Well, there are things that are predetermined, but it doesn't mean fate is a thing. Our little life giving star known as the sun will have a lifetime of 9 million years if I remember correctly, correct me if I'm wrong. It is assumed to be around half that age. Thus we are determined to die or escape in 4.5 billion years.

I don't believe in any kind of fate, but there are constants we can't change and our opportunity to change things around us depends a lot on where we live. If I were born in North Korea in a poor family I don't have much of a choice of what happens to my life. I live in a country where I do have options though and I have used my free will to change things. I believed I simply didn't understand maths and that I never would. Then when I buckled down I became quite good at it and even started to enjoy it a little. Some things such as the future of the sun is determined, but fate is several kinds of bullshit with sprinkles on top.

Edit: Fixing some pretty big mistakes in my post, never mind me.
 

Calibanbutcher

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Nov 29, 2009
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Yopaz said:
Calibanbutcher said:
I don't believe in anything supernatural, so why should I believe in predetermination?
We are pretty much free to shape our own lives in the boundaries set to us by our culture and the laws of physics.
Well, there are things that are predetermined, but it doesn't mean fate is a thing. Our little life giving star known as the sun will have a lifetime of 9 million years if I remember correctly, correct me if I'm wrong. It is assumed to be around half that age. Thus we are determined to die or escape in 4.5 million years.

I don't believe in any kind of fate, but there are constants we can't change and our opportunity to change things around us depends a lot on where we live. If I were born in North Korea in a poor family I don't have much of a choice of what happens to my life. I live in a country where I do have options though and I have used my free will to change things. I believed I simply didn't understand maths and that I never would. Then when I buckled down I became quite good at it and even started to enjoy it a little. Some things such as the future of the sun is determined, but fate is several kinds of bullshit with sprinkles on top.

Which is why I included "laws of physics", since we can'T really change that stuff. We can'T cool the sun, we can't do much to slow down earth etc.

Just as an FYI:
You're off by a factor of 1000. The sun is app. 4.57 billion years old and we still got a few billion years to go.