Poll: Do you believe in free will?

[Dahemo]

Atoms and particles behave in probabilistic ways, but our mind is made of atoms and particles...

How can free will exist?

No, they don't. Quantum physics has shown conclusively that particles can and will behave in unpredictable and sometimes definitively impossible (telportation/existing simultaneously in two seperate places) ways, although the majority of particles behave predictably, thus solid matter is considered inherently stable, and the chances of bizaree occurences are infintessimal, yet not impossible. This suppports my belief that whilst nature and nurture contribute heavily to outside prediction of choices, and the person themselves will almost always follow those lines, we cannot explain away such things as creativity, acts of great evil or the truly bizarre as merely predetermined, or worse, comprehensible.

I think the problem with free will is that by logical extension it is a terrifying concept, and it frames societal structure as a measure of control against such frightening possibilities, as a society of driven indivualists could not function in ways we traditionally understand...

 

[JC175]

I don't believe in free will but nor do I think it matters much. I think that everything you do is determined by a combination of your genetics and your environment and that if your life was run again everything would be exactly the same. I was thinking about this because I vaguely remember reading something about a study that showed that given a choice between two cakes the people participating would start reaching for one before their brain had registered a choice.

So what do other people think and does anyone know anything about the study I mentioned?

The study you're talking about (or at least a version of it that I'm aware of) involved several participants who were told to make a decision to press a button while wearing brain monitoring electrodes. They had any amount of time to choose to press the button, and the button was to measure the exact point in time that the person was deciding to press it. Trouble is, the output of the brain detected showed this decision was made a very short time before the button was actually pressed.

Now this study doesn't really prove that there is no such thing as free will, rather that there is a slight disconnection between actions and decisions - whether this is because of reflexes and the time taken for impulses to travel along nerves, I'm not sure.

But on the concept of free will, it's a very interesting thing to think about. If you're interested in the subject, I started a thread on it a few months back [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.105813] you could read over that ended up going over some really interesting points of view, involving computer AI and the concepts of autonomy.

 

[Worsle]

Free will's simply causality. Every decision you make is caused by something, and that something was caused by something else, and so on in a chain of cause and effect that has gone on since anything has ever existed.

To put it simply, Dr. Manhattan was right.

This is kind of my point. It isn't really free will because there is no chance of it being something else since it is determined by everything that has gone before.

The thing is there is a certain uncertainty built into the universe or so it seems so I don't think we can say what will happens is all set in stone from day one. However I am not so sure about free will either. Ultimately humans seem to be reasoning machines, though we don't know the exact rules we run on we do run on rules. Given a set situation at a set point in your life and you will always make the same choice.

Though I guess it could be argued our ability to sort out information and pick the best choice for it is free will of a kind. I am just not sure it is the best word for it.

The only thing that keeps the future uncertain is uncertainty. In theory we could make a map of all of history both future and past if we knew all variables originating from the Big-Bang.

See this was exactly the point I was trying not to make. You are assuming there is no innate randomness to the workings of the universe but what if there is? Then it would be impossible to map out the future like you could the past it also means you can't really work back from now to say what the past was like either. However this says very little about free will, the universe can be as random as it could be and this would have no effect on wither or not people have free will.

 

[13lackfriday]

No.

The corporations control everything.

 

[Hedberger]

Free will's simply causality. Every decision you make is caused by something, and that something was caused by something else, and so on in a chain of cause and effect that has gone on since anything has ever existed.

To put it simply, Dr. Manhattan was right.

This is kind of my point. It isn't really free will because there is no chance of it being something else since it is determined by everything that has gone before.

The thing is there is a certain uncertainty built into the universe or so it seems so I don't think we can say what will happens is all set in stone from day one. However I am not so sure about free will either. Ultimately humans seem to be reasoning machines, though we don't know the exact rules we run on we do run on rules. Given a set situation at a set point in your life and you will always make the same choice.

Though I guess it could be argued our ability to sort out information and pick the best choice for it is free will of a kind. I am just not sure it is the best word for it.

The only thing that keeps the future uncertain is uncertainty. In theory we could make a map of all of history both future and past if we knew all variables originating from the Big-Bang.

See this was exactly the point I was trying not to make. You are assuming there is no innate randomness to the workings of the universe but what if there is? Then it would be impossible to map out the future like you could the past it also means you can't really work back from now to say what the past was like either. However this says very little about free will, the universe can be as random as it could be and this would have no effect on wither or not people have free will.

My theory is that there is a law for how everything works. I don't believe in a god or something like that, it just evolved. What we percieve as random is simply what we can not explain. How would you define random?

 

[Hedberger]

Free will's simply causality. Every decision you make is caused by something, and that something was caused by something else, and so on in a chain of cause and effect that has gone on since anything has ever existed.

To put it simply, Dr. Manhattan was right.

There is one way to break the chain of events though. If you somehow learn what is going to happen you have forced the chain to make a new series of events. Simply knowing whatäs going to happen can drastically change your behavior when the event occurs.

Knowing what's going to happen is just part of the chain, but you bring up a good point. I'll just go with the Back to the Future II explanation and say you'll produce a parallel timeline.

Never saw that movie. So how would that work?

Hmm, I don't really know. Keep in mind I was just guessing and have no background in quantum physics or whatever I would need to know to make a feasible timeline theory.

How does it work/is it explained in the movie?

 

[Zyxzy]

Free will's simply causality. Every decision you make is caused by something, and that something was caused by something else, and so on in a chain of cause and effect that has gone on since anything has ever existed.

To put it simply, Dr. Manhattan was right.

This is kind of my point. It isn't really free will because there is no chance of it being something else since it is determined by everything that has gone before.

The thing is there is a certain uncertainty built into the universe or so it seems so I don't think we can say what will happens is all set in stone from day one. However I am not so sure about free will either. Ultimately humans seem to be reasoning machines, though we don't know the exact rules we run on we do run on rules. Given a set situation at a set point in your life and you will always make the same choice.

Though I guess it could be argued our ability to sort out information and pick the best choice for it is free will of a kind. I am just not sure it is the best word for it.

The only thing that keeps the future uncertain is uncertainty. In theory we could make a map of all of history both future and past if we knew all variables originating from the Big-Bang.

See this was exactly the point I was trying not to make. You are assuming there is no innate randomness to the workings of the universe but what if there is? Then it would be impossible to map out the future like you could the past it also means you can't really work back from now to say what the past was like either. However this says very little about free will, the universe can be as random as it could be and this would have no effect on wither or not people have free will.

My theory is that there is a law for how everything works. I don't believe in a god or something like that, it just evolved. What we perceive as random is simply what we can not explain. How would you define random?

Random is the unaccountable.

 

[ragamuffingirl]

Free will can be a little confusing at first. lets say you believe in G-d. well if G-d is all knowing he must know what your going to do before you do it. does this mean that you have no real control over your actions, and that everything is predetermined? personally i think that it does mean that things are being predetermined but you still choose (hence, free will) the destiny you where predetermined to choose. just because someone knows what your going to do before you do it doesn't change the fact that you choose that action.

yes i believe in free will.

 

[Hedberger]

Free will's simply causality. Every decision you make is caused by something, and that something was caused by something else, and so on in a chain of cause and effect that has gone on since anything has ever existed.

To put it simply, Dr. Manhattan was right.

This is kind of my point. It isn't really free will because there is no chance of it being something else since it is determined by everything that has gone before.

The thing is there is a certain uncertainty built into the universe or so it seems so I don't think we can say what will happens is all set in stone from day one. However I am not so sure about free will either. Ultimately humans seem to be reasoning machines, though we don't know the exact rules we run on we do run on rules. Given a set situation at a set point in your life and you will always make the same choice.

Though I guess it could be argued our ability to sort out information and pick the best choice for it is free will of a kind. I am just not sure it is the best word for it.

The only thing that keeps the future uncertain is uncertainty. In theory we could make a map of all of history both future and past if we knew all variables originating from the Big-Bang.

See this was exactly the point I was trying not to make. You are assuming there is no innate randomness to the workings of the universe but what if there is? Then it would be impossible to map out the future like you could the past it also means you can't really work back from now to say what the past was like either. However this says very little about free will, the universe can be as random as it could be and this would have no effect on wither or not people have free will.

My theory is that there is a law for how everything works. I don't believe in a god or something like that, it just evolved. What we perceive as random is simply what we can not explain. How would you define random?

Random is the unaccountable.

So i guess that we belive the same there. If we say that there is no law for how something would react and it never reacts in the same way, i'm assuming that is what you mean, then how is it decided how it reacts? There must be something that decides how something reacts.

Edit: If there are several options and one is picked there must be something that made it choose that, if you see what i mean.

 

[A random person]

Free will's simply causality. Every decision you make is caused by something, and that something was caused by something else, and so on in a chain of cause and effect that has gone on since anything has ever existed.

To put it simply, Dr. Manhattan was right.

There is one way to break the chain of events though. If you somehow learn what is going to happen you have forced the chain to make a new series of events. Simply knowing whatäs going to happen can drastically change your behavior when the event occurs.

Knowing what's going to happen is just part of the chain, but you bring up a good point. I'll just go with the Back to the Future II explanation and say you'll produce a parallel timeline.

Never saw that movie. So how would that work?

Hmm, I don't really know. Keep in mind I was just guessing and have no background in quantum physics or whatever I would need to know to make a feasible timeline theory.

How does it work/is it explained in the movie?

It's not. They just went back in time, altered history, and it made said parallel timeline. The movie never really goes into technical detail about anything.

 

[ragamuffingirl]

there's no life in a lot of these answers doesn't anyone believe in magic or the unexplainable anymore? science is so dry and boring to me. don't you guys think its a little depressing to sum your self and life down and your actions down into meaningless numbers the quantum this bla bla the atoms that bla bla the outside environment and psychology bla bla. if we have no free will and we're just pre-programed biological machines why do anything? whats the point? whats the fun in it?
it all sounds to me like more rules someone i guess the great mathbot in the sky wants us to follow. rules rules rules how i hate thee.

I'm in no way saying anyone's answers here are wrong ,and i think its good for people to have different answers, i guess im just curious if anyone else feels like i do.

 

[Hedberger]

there's no life in a lot of these answers doesn't anyone believe in magic or the unexplainable anymore? science is so dry and boring to me. don't you guys think its a little depressing to sum your self and life down and your actions down into meaningless numbers the quantum this bla bla the atoms that bla bla the outside environment and psychology bla bla. if we have no free will and we're just pre-programed biological machines why do anything? whats the point? whats the fun in it?
it all sounds to me like more rules someone i guess the great mathbot in the sky wants us to follow. rules rules rules how i hate thee.

I'm in no way saying anyone's answers here are wrong ,and i think its good for people to have different answers, i guess im just curious if anyone else feels like i do.

I don't think it is dull actually. It sorta like when you see a movie and you know that the protagonist is going to survive. The path through the movie can still be interesting and there is always that niggling little doubt that you could be wrong this time.

 

[Dr. Gorgenflex]

Free will is defined by choice. There is no magical force, predicted storyline or deity telling me to do anything. I have the option to do whatever I choose. You do not have to choose anything based on previous events as others stated. Even if that was true, there had to be a first event that wasn't based on any previous events. If free will doesn't exist, go ahead and kill someone, I'm sure it is inevitable.

 

[Hedberger]

there's no life in a lot of these answers doesn't anyone believe in magic or the unexplainable anymore? science is so dry and boring to me. don't you guys think its a little depressing to sum your self and life down and your actions down into meaningless numbers the quantum this bla bla the atoms that bla bla the outside environment and psychology bla bla. if we have no free will and we're just pre-programed biological machines why do anything? whats the point? whats the fun in it?
it all sounds to me like more rules someone i guess the great mathbot in the sky wants us to follow. rules rules rules how i hate thee.

I'm in no way saying anyone's answers here are wrong ,and i think its good for people to have different answers, i guess im just curious if anyone else feels like i do.

I don't think it is dull actually. It sorta like when you see a movie and you know that the protagonist is going to survive. The path through the movie can still be interesting and there is always that niggling little doubt that you could be wrong this time.

with me it just seems like anymore science isn't just trying to explain why something does something its now trying to pin everything down like a bug pinned down to cork board where are the free thinkers, the anything is possible people, the people that don't want to spend their lives calculating the stones that build the walls of there prison cells.

but then i guess anything can be fun to someone i know a guy that loves to look at pictures of ladies feet.< may be a bad example but my point is different strokes for different folks< also may be a bad example to write by first example, but you get the point.

I think it's interesting to try and come up with how things work. There are laws for everything but, you still can't keep all of them in your head and simultaniously remember how they all interact and react to each other. I really can't claim to know what is going to happen. Even if i could do that things would still be interesting. For example, A magicians trick would still be interesting even if you know how he/she performs the trick.

 

[Worsle]

Free will's simply causality. Every decision you make is caused by something, and that something was caused by something else, and so on in a chain of cause and effect that has gone on since anything has ever existed.

To put it simply, Dr. Manhattan was right.

This is kind of my point. It isn't really free will because there is no chance of it being something else since it is determined by everything that has gone before.

The thing is there is a certain uncertainty built into the universe or so it seems so I don't think we can say what will happens is all set in stone from day one. However I am not so sure about free will either. Ultimately humans seem to be reasoning machines, though we don't know the exact rules we run on we do run on rules. Given a set situation at a set point in your life and you will always make the same choice.

Though I guess it could be argued our ability to sort out information and pick the best choice for it is free will of a kind. I am just not sure it is the best word for it.

The only thing that keeps the future uncertain is uncertainty. In theory we could make a map of all of history both future and past if we knew all variables originating from the Big-Bang.

See this was exactly the point I was trying not to make. You are assuming there is no innate randomness to the workings of the universe but what if there is? Then it would be impossible to map out the future like you could the past it also means you can't really work back from now to say what the past was like either. However this says very little about free will, the universe can be as random as it could be and this would have no effect on wither or not people have free will.

My theory is that there is a law for how everything works. I don't believe in a god or something like that, it just evolved. What we percieve as random is simply what we can not explain. How would you define random?

Sure it might just be we can't explain it but I would not bet on it,once you get into quantum mechanics the universe is a lot harder to track. This does not mean there are not reasons behind it or we can't understand it but it does not mean we will ever get to the stage where we can predict what will happen next. While not 100% what I am talking about do you know the uncertainty principle? When you know the location you can't know its speed and when you know its speed you can not know its precise location if we can't know both those values then maybe the universe is not as solid as we like to think.

 

[MiracleOfSound]

I think we all live in the illusion of free will, that the brain rationalizes what would be the optimal choice, which we think is free will. Or "free will" is just the brain making calculations of what is good for the mind, and taking risks are merely the brain making approximate guesses of ohw big the chances are that we will get the most optimal result. It takes the weight of the outcome versus the chance of success.

Well said.

 

[Aunel]

if somebody could make a live EXACTLY the same, starting from how your parents met, how they grew up, and even before that, then I think people would be the same, but if you make 2 clones, in the same environment, then they would be the same.