Poll: Do you care about "flag burning"?

[TheVioletBandit]

I do take offense to flag burning, It's like calling a black man "a dirty ******" or a brown person "a paki bastard" except you're saying it to an entire country. I'm from the UK, I also object to the burning of anything that represents a culture so koran burning, bible burning, poppy burning is offensive. I'm not personally offended by bible or koran burning because I'm not a muslim or christian but it is disrespectful.

What? No it isn't. Those are other terms are discriminatory and have baggage behind them. Burning a flag protests what the nation is doing. Burning a Koran or Bible protests the ideas they stand for.

I didn't say flag burning was the same as burning religious texts.

Okay. Drop the religious part and that still leaves my issue with saying it's the same as a racial slur.

I personally feel that flag burning is as offensive as a racial slur.

Alright, I personally feel that makes as much sense as wearing a shoe on your head. Presumably there should be some logic behind it, but apparently not.

I love posting my opinions and watching them get ripped apart. Why can't I be offended by flag burning?

I love posting something reasonable and having people twist it to mean something else.

Let's get some things straight.
1. I did not say that you could or could not do anything.
2. I am objecting to the comparison between flag burning and racial slurs.
3. I made no comment on being offended by flag burning itself, only on the comparison.

Alright, I'll rephrase my question why do you find it so un-logical that I find flag burning as offensive as a racial slur?

One is discriminatory, backed by a very negative past including violence and serious consequences.

The other is merely a gesture against the government of a nation and its actions.

One is a personal affront to people, the other is a comment on their feelings towards a government and how it's acted.

You say that flag burning is a gesture towards the government, I see it as a gesture against the people of a nation. Because of this I get as offended as someone that has been the victim of a racial slur.

That makes little sense since people burn their own flag. Thus they clearly mean it as a message against the government. It would make no sense as a message against themselves.

I am pretty sure their are numerous times when a group of people from a different country have burnt another countries flag, and meant to be offensive against the differing country as a whole not just its government. For example when extremist Muslims refer to America as "the great Satan" I don't think their just speaking about the government.

It's kind of hard to tell what they're talking about in particular.

But honestly, I'd imagine they're mostly upset about US actions in their region.

Well the buildings they flew planes into were filled with civilians, most of the Americans they have captured and beheaded on their little videos were civilians, and they have no problem suicide bombing civilians. All this leads me to believe they dislike Americans not just the American government. It's actually a pretty obvious conclusion that their flag burning is meant to insult the nation as a whole, yet your trying to deny this for some reason.

Okay, so I'm to believe that all those people I see on TV in the Middle East that happen to be Muslim and burning flags were in on 9/11. Yeah, sure.

I also don't see their lack of problem with killing civilians as proof they hate all Americans. They'll kill their own people in a suicide attack. I think it says more about how low they're willing to stoop to achieve their goals.

Wow, don't try to derail the conversation by implying that I think something as stupid as all Muslims being involved in 9/11. That's not what I said, and I'm pretty sure you know that. If not then your not even reading my posts and this conversation pointless.

It gets pointless when you try to use 9/11 as evidence of the feelings of people uninvolved in it. I was also quite a lot more specific than 'Muslims'. I'm not going to take you very seriously when you try and use 9/11 as evidence like that.

Honestly, I don't know what else to say to convince you that your wrong.

And we get down to the core of your 'rational' argument.

Other than, have you been on this planet long? Hate isn't always rational, and surely isn't always directed in rational ways. Sometimes a government can do something unfortunate, and people take their resentment for that government, and project it onto the civilians as well. I don't understand why your having such a hard time grasping this concept, it's not as far fetched as your making it out to be.

You're making assumptions about their anger. Quite simply they've never been in a position where the expression of it can be confirmed to be hate of all Americans.

Woohoo, they don't hate Americans! In fact, no one that has ever burned an American flag hates Americans! This is a great day for our nation, and for all nations, as flag burning has never once in the history of humankind been against the civilians of any country. I had thought that nations harbored resentment, and hatred for other nations that went far deeper than simple objection to a government, and could for example be a hatred of a peoples culture or religion, but now I know their is no such thing as nationalism or misappropriated hatred. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Bye now, I must go out amongst the people and voice this great wisdom to the masses, oh joy.

I never actually said that. I'm just pointing out your evidence sucks pretty bad. But you're going to just ignore that for throwing a little tantrum.

Why I would need to produce evidence in the first place for something that is blatantly obvious is beyond me.

It probably has to do with jumping to stupid conclusions. Never said that it could never be fueled by hate of all of America. I pointed out a clear example where it wasn't so someone who couldn't fathom that it could be anti-government instead of anti-citizen. Then someone jumped it saying random pointless shit.

In that "random pointless shit" I only stated that it could be a hatred for both the government and the people, but you wouldn't just accept that. You instigated a stupid and pointless argument with your own stubbornness.

There's another option to getting it wrong all the time, dude. It's a secret but I'll let you in on it. It's going back and reading what was said. Feel free to search for the part where I denied the possibility they could hate both as opposed to attacking your weak evidence.

Yeah, I'll get right on that, and when I come back saying the same thing you can switch up your argument again, hilarious.

 

[SlaveNumber23]

Hey, its better if they are burning flags than killing people isn't it? I can see why people would do it, in the same way that I can see that a child might kick over another child's sandcastle out of primal jealousy and hate. I'm not very patriotic so it doesn't offend me at all.

 

[The Code]

The idea of flag burning bothers me immensely. Sure, it's just a piece of cloth being lit on fire, but it's the symbolism that irks me. Yes, burning a flag is the only legal method of disposal here in the USA, I think that HOW they're burning it is disrespectful.

I live in southern Arizona, where there are plenty of America-hating illegal immigrants running amok. "We hate America! We hate America!" Really? Then why the f**k are you even here in the first place? If you hate us so much, then let us collapse under the weight of our own bloated, broken economy without the annoying, repetitive rhetoric that the entire world keeps spitting at us!

To all the America-hating bastards out there, I simply say this:

We have soldiers, we have nuclear warheads. We have PLENTY of nuclear warheads. Yes, our current leader (I hesitate to call him President) is too afraid to use them. Who's to say our next leader will be just as gun-shy? For all the world knows, we could be blessed with the second coming of Ronald Reagan!

*sigh* I apologize for the rant and if anyone was offended, but flag burning is one of those things that throws me into a patriotic rant almost instantly.

P.S. Did you know that the word 'Jihad' is nowhere in the Muslim holy scriptures?

 

[TheGauntman]

I'll just leave this here.
But, eh, I'm not the most patriotic guy anyway. In fact, strong patriotism makes me uneasy - at a certain point one type of zealotry becomes indistinguishable from any others.

 

[BaronUberstein]

I do take offense to flag burning, It's like calling a black man "a dirty ******" or a brown person "a paki bastard" except you're saying it to an entire country. I'm from the UK, I also object to the burning of anything that represents a culture so koran burning, bible burning, poppy burning is offensive. I'm not personally offended by bible or koran burning because I'm not a muslim or christian but it is disrespectful.

What? No it isn't. Those are other terms are discriminatory and have baggage behind them. Burning a flag protests what the nation is doing. Burning a Koran or Bible protests the ideas they stand for.

I didn't say flag burning was the same as burning religious texts.

Okay. Drop the religious part and that still leaves my issue with saying it's the same as a racial slur.

I personally feel that flag burning is as offensive as a racial slur.

Alright, I personally feel that makes as much sense as wearing a shoe on your head. Presumably there should be some logic behind it, but apparently not.

Well, race is an artificial construct based on different traits in the same species. Nations are artificial constructs as well, based either on group ideology or cultural uniformity. So...they're pretty much the same. National pride has a bit more to stand on than say, racial pride though, because a nation is actually a group of people working together verses say, the amount of melanin in one's skin.

As for flag burning, I'd rather have somebody burn a flag then set off a bomb. If they want to express their anger in a way that doesn't hurt others, they can go right ahead.

 

[zumbledum]

I don't really care about the whole thing, hopefully that doesn't make me "unpatriotic" or whatever but there ya go.

Patriotism is being loyal to land because you were born there despite any logical or objective view. its not something we should be encouraging in this day and age really.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

"I don't get all choked up about yellow ribbons and American flags. I see them as symbols, and I leave them to the symbol-minded."
- George Carlin

Sums it up quite nicely.

I've never understood the fascination with cloth.

 

[BaronUberstein]

I do take offense to flag burning, It's like calling a black man "a dirty ******" or a brown person "a paki bastard" except you're saying it to an entire country. I'm from the UK, I also object to the burning of anything that represents a culture so koran burning, bible burning, poppy burning is offensive. I'm not personally offended by bible or koran burning because I'm not a muslim or christian but it is disrespectful.

What? No it isn't. Those are other terms are discriminatory and have baggage behind them. Burning a flag protests what the nation is doing. Burning a Koran or Bible protests the ideas they stand for.

I didn't say flag burning was the same as burning religious texts.

Okay. Drop the religious part and that still leaves my issue with saying it's the same as a racial slur.

I personally feel that flag burning is as offensive as a racial slur.

Alright, I personally feel that makes as much sense as wearing a shoe on your head. Presumably there should be some logic behind it, but apparently not.

Well, race is an artificial construct based on different traits in the same species. Nations are artificial constructs as well, based either on group ideology or cultural uniformity. So...they're pretty much the same. National pride has a bit more to stand on than say, racial pride though, because a nation is actually a group of people working together verses say, the amount of melanin in one's skin.

Yeah, that's bullshit. One artificial construct is not equivalent to another. For example, the first refers to actual people. The second doesn't have to refer to the people of the nation. Humans are walking pieces of flesh with 2 arms and 2 legs. So are a chimps. Do you think they're pretty much the same thing? I can play stupid and narrowly select certain characteristics of two things to try and make a comparison too, doesn't make it a good comparison.

I'm just saying, the concept of "race" is silly to me. We're humans, there is nothing that prevents any of the 'races' from having children with each other.

And we are very similar to chimps, we share a large amount of DNA, we're both mammals, and there's a reason chimps were used for space flights and are still used for some medical testing. Now, perhaps I'm focusing too much on your example, it's 5:30 am and I'm hardly at my peak mental state, heh.

But my overall point is; why is it so absurd to get angry over an insult at one's nation if it isn't absurd to get angry over a racial slur, if both things are merely caused by geological divides? What makes national pride wrong and racial pride "right"? Couldn't both be "wrong"?

I'd argue that at the very least, national pride has more backing too it in a democratic nation, because one has an investment in said nation via their vote. The government's actions are based on the collective votes, and thus an insult to the nation is in part an insult to every voter. Then again, maybe people have a mental investment in their skin color.

Also, no need to bring out the words like "bullshit", I'm just trying to discuss things in a friendly manner, and if I come across as rude at any point, just say so. As I said, I'm kind of tired. >__>

 

[The Night Angel]

Doesn't bother me in the slightest, I've never understood people who get worked up about that stuff. Then again, I come from Ireland, so every year on Paddy's day, I get to watch foreigners vomit on our flag, spill beer on our flag, drag our flag along the floor, and wear our flag like a cape thinking they are drunken, stupid version of batman. So yea, most Irish people are used to their flag being mistreated, doesn't bother us

 

[JoesshittyOs]

What actually pisses me off is when people retire flags incorrectly, by forgetting to cut them up first. So in essence, what pisses me off is people accidentally being offensive.

You're supposed to separately cut the colors out, and then you put it in the fire. Stupid Boyscouts.

But otherwise... no. Not really.

 

[Dogstile]

Eh, doesn't bother me. On the rare occasion i've seen a flag burning up close, i've sat and laughed. They're usually so confused they'll burn themselves, which will make you laugh even harder.

 

[imnot]

Eh I don't really care, but I chose bothers me a little because, well, they basicaly just said "Fuck you citizens of britain!"
(In the case of the union jack)

 

[BaronUberstein]

I do take offense to flag burning, It's like calling a black man "a dirty ******" or a brown person "a paki bastard" except you're saying it to an entire country. I'm from the UK, I also object to the burning of anything that represents a culture so koran burning, bible burning, poppy burning is offensive. I'm not personally offended by bible or koran burning because I'm not a muslim or christian but it is disrespectful.

What? No it isn't. Those are other terms are discriminatory and have baggage behind them. Burning a flag protests what the nation is doing. Burning a Koran or Bible protests the ideas they stand for.

I didn't say flag burning was the same as burning religious texts.

Okay. Drop the religious part and that still leaves my issue with saying it's the same as a racial slur.

I personally feel that flag burning is as offensive as a racial slur.

Alright, I personally feel that makes as much sense as wearing a shoe on your head. Presumably there should be some logic behind it, but apparently not.

Well, race is an artificial construct based on different traits in the same species. Nations are artificial constructs as well, based either on group ideology or cultural uniformity. So...they're pretty much the same. National pride has a bit more to stand on than say, racial pride though, because a nation is actually a group of people working together verses say, the amount of melanin in one's skin.

Yeah, that's bullshit. One artificial construct is not equivalent to another. For example, the first refers to actual people. The second doesn't have to refer to the people of the nation. Humans are walking pieces of flesh with 2 arms and 2 legs. So are a chimps. Do you think they're pretty much the same thing? I can play stupid and narrowly select certain characteristics of two things to try and make a comparison too, doesn't make it a good comparison.

I'm just saying, the concept of "race" is silly to me. We're humans, there is nothing that prevents any of the 'races' from having children with each other.

Which does not make insulting a nation the same as insulting a race. A race, however flimsy the reason for the classification, still refers to people. So throwing racial slurs insults a whole lot of people. An attack on a nation though is not necessarily an attack on the people who live in the country.

And we are very similar to chimps, we share a large amount of DNA, we're both mammals, and there's a reason chimps were used for space flights and are still used for some medical testing. Now, perhaps I'm focusing too much on your example, it's 5:30 am and I'm hardly at my peak mental state, heh.

We're still not chimps =|

But my overall point is; why is it so absurd to get angry over an insult at one's nation if it isn't absurd to get angry over a racial slur, if both things are merely caused by geological divides? What makes national pride wrong and racial pride "right"? Couldn't both be "wrong"?

I'd argue that at the very least, national pride has more backing too it in a democratic nation, because one has an investment in said nation via their vote. The government's actions are based on the collective votes, and thus an insult to the nation is in part an insult to every voter. Then again, maybe people have a mental investment in their skin color.

You seem to be confused by what a race refers to and why a racial slur is insulting. It isn't racial pride. If I call someone a ****** or something then I'm insulting them personally. Don't fling some stupid racial pride strawman out, pride has jack shit to do with it.

Also, no need to bring out the words like "bullshit", I'm just trying to discuss things in a friendly manner, and if I come across as rude at any point, just say so. As I said, I'm kind of tired. >__>

Then don't give me ridiculous comparisons =/

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree, because I see no reason why a racial slur should be insulting to somebody unless they have an investment in their race. It would be like somebody calling me a "rusted over robot", I'm not a robot, the insult makes no sense. I have nothing invested emotionally in the idea of myself as a robot. That's what I'm trying to say, that if one has no investment in something, there is no reason to be insulted over it. Thus, to be insulted by a racial slur, one has to have an emotional investment in the construct of race. They have to identify themselves by that concept. Thus, if one doesn't identify themselves by the concept of race but instead just think of themselves as human, I see no reason why racial slurs should rile them up, because it wouldn't apply to them. Of course, I could just be stupid and simply not understand how other people think.

I don't see the comparison as so ridiculous, but again, it seems we think differently on a basic level. I see insulting a group one has invested in as a personal insult, as one has put time and effort, as well as an emotional investment, into that group. If somebody said to me, "Your family is terrible", I would take offense to that because I am a member of my family. It's a category that includes myself. But if somebody said to me "your mother is terrible", I have no reason to be offended, as I am not under the category of 'my mother'. Of course, I can still argue with them that they are wrong, if I believe they are incorrect, but I don't see a reason to get upset over such a statement.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

/snip

His basic idea has some merit, since both race and the significance of flags are societal constructs, but I do agree with you that said idea falls flat when you realize that racial slurs, as opposed to flag burning, can be much more personal.

Granted, certain circumstances can exist where the offender is talking about the race in general when referring to the individual or the guy burning the flag is doing so while staring at a very specific American citizen...

Frankly, it's all lacking in sense to begin with and requires evaluation on an individual basis to truly comprehend the level of incompetence on the part of participants.



Still though, no need to get mean about it. The guy just seems to have a different opinion. No harm there so long as he's civil.

 

[BaronUberstein]

I do take offense to flag burning, It's like calling a black man "a dirty ******" or a brown person "a paki bastard" except you're saying it to an entire country. I'm from the UK, I also object to the burning of anything that represents a culture so koran burning, bible burning, poppy burning is offensive. I'm not personally offended by bible or koran burning because I'm not a muslim or christian but it is disrespectful.

What? No it isn't. Those are other terms are discriminatory and have baggage behind them. Burning a flag protests what the nation is doing. Burning a Koran or Bible protests the ideas they stand for.

I didn't say flag burning was the same as burning religious texts.

Okay. Drop the religious part and that still leaves my issue with saying it's the same as a racial slur.

I personally feel that flag burning is as offensive as a racial slur.

Alright, I personally feel that makes as much sense as wearing a shoe on your head. Presumably there should be some logic behind it, but apparently not.

Well, race is an artificial construct based on different traits in the same species. Nations are artificial constructs as well, based either on group ideology or cultural uniformity. So...they're pretty much the same. National pride has a bit more to stand on than say, racial pride though, because a nation is actually a group of people working together verses say, the amount of melanin in one's skin.

Yeah, that's bullshit. One artificial construct is not equivalent to another. For example, the first refers to actual people. The second doesn't have to refer to the people of the nation. Humans are walking pieces of flesh with 2 arms and 2 legs. So are a chimps. Do you think they're pretty much the same thing? I can play stupid and narrowly select certain characteristics of two things to try and make a comparison too, doesn't make it a good comparison.

I'm just saying, the concept of "race" is silly to me. We're humans, there is nothing that prevents any of the 'races' from having children with each other.

Which does not make insulting a nation the same as insulting a race. A race, however flimsy the reason for the classification, still refers to people. So throwing racial slurs insults a whole lot of people. An attack on a nation though is not necessarily an attack on the people who live in the country.

And we are very similar to chimps, we share a large amount of DNA, we're both mammals, and there's a reason chimps were used for space flights and are still used for some medical testing. Now, perhaps I'm focusing too much on your example, it's 5:30 am and I'm hardly at my peak mental state, heh.

We're still not chimps =|

But my overall point is; why is it so absurd to get angry over an insult at one's nation if it isn't absurd to get angry over a racial slur, if both things are merely caused by geological divides? What makes national pride wrong and racial pride "right"? Couldn't both be "wrong"?

I'd argue that at the very least, national pride has more backing too it in a democratic nation, because one has an investment in said nation via their vote. The government's actions are based on the collective votes, and thus an insult to the nation is in part an insult to every voter. Then again, maybe people have a mental investment in their skin color.

You seem to be confused by what a race refers to and why a racial slur is insulting. It isn't racial pride. If I call someone a ****** or something then I'm insulting them personally. Don't fling some stupid racial pride strawman out, pride has jack shit to do with it.

Also, no need to bring out the words like "bullshit", I'm just trying to discuss things in a friendly manner, and if I come across as rude at any point, just say so. As I said, I'm kind of tired. >__>

Then don't give me ridiculous comparisons =/

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree, because I see no reason why a racial slur should be insulting to somebody unless they have an investment in their race. It would be like somebody calling me a "rusted over robot", I'm not a robot, the insult makes no sense. I have nothing invested emotionally in the idea of myself as a robot. That's what I'm trying to say, that if one has no investment in something, there is no reason to be insulted over it. Thus, to be insulted by a racial slur, one has to have an emotional investment in the construct of race. They have to identify themselves by that concept. Thus, if one doesn't identify themselves by the concept of race but instead just think of themselves as human, I see no reason why racial slurs should rile them up, because it wouldn't apply to them. Of course, I could just be stupid and simply not understand how other people think.

I don't see the comparison as so ridiculous, but again, it seems we think differently on a basic level. I see insulting a group one has invested in as a personal insult, as one has put time and effort, as well as an emotional investment, into that group. If somebody said to me, "Your family is terrible", I would take offense to that because I am a member of my family. It's a category that includes myself. But if somebody said to me "your mother is terrible", I have no reason to be offended, as I am not under the category of 'my mother'. Of course, I can still argue with them that they are wrong, if I believe they are incorrect, but I don't see a reason to get upset over such a statement.

It has nothing to do with an emotional investment. I have no emotional investment in being a quarter Chinese, it has no impact on my day to day life, but if I get some asshole calling me a *****, I'll take offense because I know what he means by it. It's a direct insult to myself and it is saying something negative about me based on certain characteristics. I don't need to think the characteristics hold value to be offended that I'd be insulted for them.

Well, as I said, it seems we just view things differently. Doubt we're going to convince each other otherwise, and honestly, I posted on the forum to explain how I see the situation, not to convince anyone of anything. I'm too lazy to repeat myself, but I maintain my previously stated position. >__>