Comrade_Beric said:
-snip-
So, Arabs left the land because they were being shot at and they're not being allowed back in because they wouldn't vote to keep Jewish politicians in power... yeah, I can't comprehend how you think this is somehow supposed to make Israel look better to me...
Damn it.
No. The Arabs claimed so. There was no evidence of such actions in the 1948 war of Israeli Independence.
About going back in - They have their own brothers and sisters. Why won't they help them?
Yes, this is a sensitive subject because NOBODY wants these refugees.
But why lay all of the blame of Israel? What about all of the neighboring Muslim countries that can assist them, or the leaders that promised them they will return there after the Jews have been defeated?
Comrade_Beric said:
-snip-
That *is* racism, though. Defining a race as a nation and vice versa is racist. American as a Nationality is not the same as American as an ethnic group, nor is it for French nor British. But, as you just said, to be Jewish is to be a member of a nation defined by that ethnicity. That is no less racist than Nazis defining Germany by one's racial characteristics and it galls me to think that you believe it is somehow less so here.
Are you bloody stupid?
Are you so thick that you don't understand what a nationality is?]
Here it is, courtesy of Oxford.
Nationality :
1 [mass noun] the status of belonging to a particular nation
2 an ethnic group forming a part of one or more political nations.
What is an ethnic group?
Ethnicity:
[mass noun]
the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition:
the interrelationship between gender, ethnicity, and class
[count noun] :
the diverse experience of women of different ethnicities.
Which means that a Nationality is an ethnic group (ethnic group which has a common history, language, land, religion, customs, etc.) that has political ambitions and want to create a nation.
Jews have a shared religion, history, language and customs. They are an ethnic group.
The Zionist movement wanted to turn that ethnic group into a nationalist group by adding the desire to create a country for said ethnic group.
...
I just educated you.
Comrade_Beric said:
-snip-
A racial minority within the nation that has a separate government?
What the hell are you talking about?
It doesn't have a separate government, it is INTEGRATED into society and not SEGREGATED as some people, including you, think.
Comrade_Beric said:
What of the land the settlers take away?
Yes, about that...
There is no country of Palestian. Only the autonomy.
Now, we can't evict them because it would cost too much for the country.
Israel had proposed to let them stay in that territory and make it Israeli territory and in exchange they will swap other lands that don't have houses in them.
Comrade_Beric said:
What of the bombings in the Gaza Strip or Lebenon? What of the blockade meant to starve the people in Gaza because your government is unhappy with the way they voted?
Hey! This is WAR.
WAR. Do you understand that word? WAR.
We were at WAR with Lebanon.
We were at war with Hezbollah, and now that it had gained power in Gaza and is now the leader of it, we are at war with Gaza. Therefore we are conducting a LEGAL blockade of our enemy.
We can't attack it and try to root Hezbollah, at least no again. You saw the catastrophe that was operation cast lead.
What of the occupation which prevents another sovereign nation from having its own armed forces to defend itself and instead must submit to Israeli checkpoints just to move around their own country? Or do you define these places as Israel, too?
Comrade_Beric said:
The reason there is never a peace settlement is not because of the Palestinians, but because of Israel. Why should Israel ever agree to anything? Israel already has the best conceivable position, slowly taking more land away from people who can't stop them, controlling their every movement, holding them hostage economically, and all while not allowing them a vote in the Israeli government which controls them. If there were a settlement, justice would dictate that Israel would have to give up far more than it would gain, so why should they ever not walk out of a negotiation that they were only attending in the first place to keep their biggest foreign aid partner, the United States, happy?
Most f the first lines are bullshit.
About the negotiations - It all comes down to the refugees, and nobody wants to f*cking touch that issue.
Everything else is settled - dividing Jerusalem, Water, economics, land swaps - except for the refugees.
The negotiations fall down whenever they reach that bit.
I have no answer for you, but this isn't the fault of Israel and if you try to look at it objectively you will see that letting them return will undermine the democracy of Israel as a democracy and as a national home for the Jews.
Comrade_Beric said:
If there were any actual hope of Palestinians regaining the land they had even in 1967 through peaceful means, I would not hesitate to condemn them for their acts of violence, but as long as Israel has no reason to actually negotiate, I have no more problem with Palestinian violence today than I have with Irish violence against the British in the 1920s.
The image of 1949-1967 is supposed to be the future palestine and how it would look like geographically. The newest map is bullshit.
If you look at the Oslo treaties and the security arrangements you'll see that the West bank autonomy is divided into three different parts - A, B, C.
Area A is in full palestinian control. Area B has the presence of Israeli military police.
Area C is under dispute at the moment, which means there aren't any there or there are just villages that nobody cares about.
