Poll: Do you take the JRPG/RPG acronyms literally?

[burningdragoon]

Howdy folks, got a bit of a query here that is interesting to me.

In some recent threads about JRPGs, I've seen the argument pop up (and somewhat participated in myself) over the definition of JRPG. I don't want to start that argument again, but what I'm talking about is basically the "JRPGs are from Japan" argument. Either way you view that argument is fine with me (for now, cuz those people I disagree with are 100% incorrect >.>).

Something I haven't quite seen recently, but I'm sure still exists, is the "RPGs are about role-playing" argument. Is the actual act of role-playing (where you define your character, make important choices, etc) what defines an RPG or not? Again, either view is completely fine with me (for now).

Here's what I'm getting at:
Some people take the J in JRPG very literally. Some people take the RP in RPG is very literally. I'm wondering how many people take both literally or just one literally or neither literally, hence the poll.

<spoiler=my views>
Since it bugs me when people ask a question without giving there own thoughts, here's what I think:

No, I don't follow the JRPGs are RPGs from Japan thing. I add the J for art style, gameplay, and common themes in that order. It just so happens that almost all games that fit my definition of JRPG are from Japan. But no, I don't really consider games like the Souls series JRPGs just because they were developed Japan. There is some JRPGness to them though, so I would put them somewhere in the middle really.

And going off of that, since I grew up where JRPGs were just called RPGs, no I don't particularly to buy into there needing to be literal role-playing for it to be an RPG.

I do think RPG is probably the worst, most vague genre name we have out there though, so I really don't get too bent out of shape when people are wrong don't feel the same way as I do.

 

[Kahunaburger]

I agree with you that "RPG" is an incredibly vague term. The issue is further confused when prominent internet personalities who clearly know very little about either sort of RPG [http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-1] weigh in on the topic.

The best definition of RPG I've seen is "game that has elements initially derived from pen & paper roleplaying games," and the best definition of JRPG I've seen is incredibly circular: "the sort of RPG Japanese developers make."

The other fun question is where we draw the line between RPGs and games with RPG elements.

 

[burningdragoon]

The best definition of RPG I've seen is "game that has elements initially derived from pen & paper roleplaying games," and the best definition of JRPG I've seen is incredibly circular: "the sort of RPG Japanese developers make."

It's just too bad GTHEIDFPPRPG and TSORPGJDM are terrible acronyms.

 

[RJ 17]

Gotta say, Dragoon, I think you do think that JRPGs are just RPGs from Japan and you don't even realize it.

No, I don't follow the JRPGs are RPGs from Japan thing. I add the J for art style, gameplay, and common themes in that order. It just so happens that almost all games that fit my definition of JRPG are from Japan.

There's a reason most of the RPGs you'd consider JRPGs come from Japan...it it has entirely to do with the art style, gameplay, and common themes. Japan is it's own unique culture that is separate from Western culture, and this translates over into the games they create. This is why JRPGs have art styles, gameplay, and common themes that are often different from (W)RPGs. As such, JRPGs are indeed just RPGs from Japan. The fact that you only have a few that you can think of a couple (such as the Souls games) that seem more Western in design/theme/etc means that those games are the exception, not the rule.

To answer the question at hand, though, I don't think you can take the RP in RPG literally. RP implies that you fully immerse and become the character you're playing. You get to say what the character says, you get to declare every action the character makes. RPGs might give you choices for action and dialogue and such, but those choices are pre-written.

For example, were Skyrim a true RPG, you could walk into any given town and slaughter everyone. There'd be no immortal children, no immortal nobles, everyone could be killed. But that's not an option, you can wound them and make them pissed off at you, but they're always going to be there...the choice to have you're character just snap one day and go on a rampage isn't truly there.

 

[DoPo]

The best definition of RPG I've seen is "game that has elements initially derived from pen & paper roleplaying games," and the best definition of JRPG I've seen is incredibly circular: "the sort of RPG Japanese developers make."

I agree with this definition. Sounds fair enough.

The other fun question is where we draw the line between RPGs and games with RPG elements.

That's really hard to quantify. RPG elements would actually imply stats and some sort of levelling up and developing them or something along those lines. We can say for ourselves what we consider "RPG" and what "with RPG element" but I'd be damn if I can define it properly. Prototype isn't an RPG to me but Fable is (OK, it's the annoying action RPG genre but it isn't with the same status as Prototype). I have no fucking clue how to describe the difference. Both are similar on some level. You gather XP, you spend it on your skills and you build your character. You aren't playing you (well, the Fable MC is supposed to be more of a blank than Alex but still isn't a complete placeholder for yourself. But we can go with Shepard as a different example for an RPG character), you are playing a dude that does what you tell them to do. They still have their own struggles and lives.

 

[Hal10k]

The best definition of RPG I've seen is "game that has elements initially derived from pen & paper roleplaying games," and the best definition of JRPG I've seen is incredibly circular: "the sort of RPG Japanese developers make."

I agree with this definition. Sounds fair enough.

The other fun question is where we draw the line between RPGs and games with RPG elements.

That's really hard to quantify. RPG elements would actually imply stats and some sort of levelling up and developing them or something along those lines. We can say for ourselves what we consider "RPG" and what "with RPG element" but I'd be damn if I can define it properly. Prototype isn't an RPG to me but Fable is (OK, it's the annoying action RPG genre but it isn't with the same status as Prototype). I have no fucking clue how to describe the difference. Both are similar on some level. You gather XP, you spend it on your skills and you build your character. You aren't playing you (well, the Fable MC is supposed to be more of a blank than Alex but still isn't a complete placeholder for yourself. But we can go with Shepard as a different example for an RPG character), you are playing a dude that does what you tell them to do. They still have their own struggles and lives.

I think the chief distinction between "RPG" and "game with RPG elements" is that one forces you to specialize. Play Prototype or Call of Duty's multiplayer enough and you'll have access to every skill, and your abilities will be fairly consistent from the outset. Whereas games like Fable or Mass Effect, at least initially, will force or encourage you to focus on a specific set of skills.

 

[Aerosteam]

If it has the word 'Japanese' in it and doesn't mean Japanese, why is it called 'Japanese'?

 

[Hal10k]

If it has the word 'Japanese' in it and doesn't mean Japanese, why is it called 'Japanese'?

Same reason you can buy French bread made in the U.K.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

I personally take the RP part literally and believe that both JRPGs and WRPGs enforce role playing in different ways typically, but not always. There really is less of a difference between the two "genres" then should serve to put them in totally different classifications, and I think eliminating the dividing boundary so that people will take ideas from both genres to build better RPGs is totally a good thing.

 

[DoPo]

I think the chief distinction between "RPG" and "game with RPG elements" is that one forces you to specialize. Play Prototype or Call of Duty's multiplayer enough and you'll have access to every skill, and your abilities will be fairly consistent from the outset. Whereas games like Fable or Mass Effect, at least initially, will force or encourage you to focus on a specific set of skills.

You might be onto something here. Prototype assumes you can eventually get all the skills (even though it takes a lot of play), while Fable doesn't (not that you can't it's just not the initial assumption of the game). RPGs strive to provide the player with options and let him decide on what is comfortable. RPG elements are there be maxed out with the player only deciding the sequence of that.

Essentially this provides different feel to the characters. Dante, from DMC, would eventually reach his true potential - unlock all the combos and max out all the combat styles. You're still playing the same Dante - whether he prefers to swing his sword more and then move on to shooting with his pistols or vice versa is not that relevant - Dante is Dante, it all fits into his character. While Shepard, on the other hand, has more of a choice - would (s)he prefer shotguns or pistols, for example. Would Shepard prefer combat or support skills. Would (s)he capitalise on survivability or just firepower. Shepard cannot have ALL the skills - it's not possible. There isn't a single way (s)he will turn out - there are at least a handful. This means that, in a way, Shepard belongs more to the character than Dante because they have more control over the end result of the character. Please, no ME3 endings here - I'm talking pure mechanics: a max level Shepard is different to another max level Shepard, while a maxed out Dante is the same as every other maxed out Dante.

 

[burningdragoon]

Gotta say, Dragoon, I think you do think that JRPGs are just RPGs from Japan and you don't even realize it.

Hehe, fair point. Obviously most RPGs from Japan will be JRPG-like, I just put the "exceptions to the rule" into a more fitting category instead of just leaving them as EttR. If someone made a JRPG-like RPG from the West, I might not call it a JRPG necessarily, but I wouldn't just call it a WRPG either.

I personally take the RP part literally and believe that both JRPGs and WRPGs enforce role playing in different ways typically, but not always. There really is less of a difference between the two "genres" then should serve to put them in totally different classifications, and I think eliminating the dividing boundary so that people will take ideas from both genres to build better RPGs is totally a good thing.

I wanted put the idea that they both do role-playing just differently into the poll, but I thought it would be more of sub-choice than a separate one.

I didn't even really start using the term JRPG instead of just RPG until this generation and even then I only do for convenience more than really thinking they should be considered separate.

 

[RJ 17]

Gotta say, Dragoon, I think you do think that JRPGs are just RPGs from Japan and you don't even realize it.

Hehe, fair point. Obviously most RPGs from Japan will be JRPG-like, I just put the "exceptions to the rule" into a more fitting category instead of just leaving them as EttR. If someone made a JRPG-like RPG from the West, I might not call it a JRPG necessarily, but I wouldn't just call it a WRPG either.

Ahhh but again, such a JRPG-like game from the west would be an exception to the "rule" of WRPGs.

 

[burningdragoon]

Gotta say, Dragoon, I think you do think that JRPGs are just RPGs from Japan and you don't even realize it.

Hehe, fair point. Obviously most RPGs from Japan will be JRPG-like, I just put the "exceptions to the rule" into a more fitting category instead of just leaving them as EttR. If someone made a JRPG-like RPG from the West, I might not call it a JRPG necessarily, but I wouldn't just call it a WRPG either.

Ahhh but again, such a JRPG-like game from the west would be an exception to the "rule" of WRPGs.

Ahhh but again... (again?), I don't play by those rules. *double*

RPG/JRPG/WRPG are very annoying categories, I think most people can at least agree to that.

 

[hermes]

Despite RPG/JRPG distinction can be blurred, I take the RP literally.

As genres that were inspired by pen & paper RPGs, both genres base a lot of the character skills in stats, which are more important for your ability to perform certain actions than skill alone. So, Call of Duty is not an RPG, because your chances of getting a headshot are not determined by anything other than your skill. Fallout is an RPG, because the guns stats do matter.

 

[Rheinmetall]

I don't know anymore what an rpg is. I suppose they are, or ended up being, tactical adventure games with heavy narrative parts. For me rpg is all abour customization of a playable character. I consider The Sims much more of an rpg than the typical linear adventure with emo characters and repetitive, or pointless, battles. I don't like the distinction between Japanese and Western rpg. I avoid using the term J-rpg. So I think my opinion counts as Answer D in your poll.

 

[zombieshark6666]

JRPG is a certain style of RPG that originated in Japan. These games can be made anywhere.

 

[AD-Stu]

JRPG is a certain style of RPG that originated in Japan. These games can be made anywhere.

^ this. For me a JRPG is a particular style of game (where among other things, everybody stands in two neat lines and takes turns to fight) and it doesn't matter where it's made, if it follows that style then to me it's a JRPG.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I honestly never really gave it much thought. I just figured JRPGs were made in Japan, hence JRPG, and that made sense since for a while the Japanese gaming industry pretty much dominated the entire gaming industry everywhere. Yes there are notable differences btwn Western and Japanese RPGs, but since I've enjoyed both I've never read too much into that.

 

[malestrithe]

I take the term Japanese in JRPG quite literally. Dark Souls and Demon' Souls were developed in Japan, and are JRPGs. World of Warcraft is from the West and is a Western RPG.

That being said, I understand that there are common elements and themes you would expect to find in Japanese games and not in Western ones and vice versa. Nier is a prime example of this. Over in Japan, the main character is in his early 20s, while in the West he is in his late 30s or early 40s. That's because over there, the brother and sister bond has more resonance. Over here, it is parent child relationship that matters more. Both games are identical in every other way.

However, when people say JRPG and Western RPG, they have something else in mind. They really mean Story Driven RPG versus Character Driven. They really mean Linear versus Sandbox. They really mean turned based versus all out combat. To think anything else is quite irksome.

As for those arguments about the distinction, my favorite one of those is "Well, it feels like it should be on PC, so therefore its a Western RPG." That has been used a lot with Dark Souls over the last 6 months.