Poll: Does God Ruin The Message?

[000Ronald]

A short question that came to mind a couple days ago; thought about posting it in Religion and Politics, but I think here would be a better fit.

A few months ago I finished reading The Death Gate Cycle, a book which, on the surface, is about powerful magical beings and how they interact with one another and the lesser, non-magical races, but really is about the relationship between Man and God[footnote]I don't think that's a spoiler, not really. It's not spelled out, and seeing that doesn't ruin the series unless, well, you hate God, I suppose.[/footnote] Anyway I was thinking about posting a review of it for those who aren't familiar, maybe let a few more people know about it when I remembered Moviebob's review of Book of Eli [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escape-to-the-movies/1397-Book-of-Eli]; specifically that he seemed to note the inclusion of God ruined what could have been a good movie.

Upon further thought this worried me a little. I watched Book of Eli, and I really liked it. I didn't feel it was so much about God as it was how having a purpose in life makes a person a better person, regardless of what that purpose is, and how one person standing up and doing something, anything, can completely change a society. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

I have two questions I feel are discussion worthy.

1) Does having something be about, or including God ruin that thing for you? If so, why?

2) Is it specifically the Judea-Christian God; would you be more or less offended if the 'god' in question was Azathoth [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azathoth] or A giant turtle [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_%28book%29]?

 

[OrokuSaki]

It's not a total deal-breaker, but I can honestly say that I become less interested in things when I realize they're a metaphor for god. It the book/movie is very well written I don't mind it as much, but if the god-being is all that holds it together I'd really rather not bother with it.

And yes, my objection is almost entirely with the Judea-Christian God, because other gods, like Zeus, were portrayed as a more human character that had humility. God apologized for one thing in the whole bible and some of the things he rained hellfire down for were silly.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

It doesn't necessarily have to, but it does sometimes.

You want my honest opinion I think one of the most prominent examples of where the idea of an omnipotent creator who has the power to absolve or punish you at his own whim gets in the way of a sound message is The Bible.

Although I don't believe in God I'm not a militant atheist either and I think their are some very sound lessons on morality in the Bible, as well as the Koran and the Torah. But I think half the reason that a lot of that morality has been lost over the years is because the basics of it are overshadowed by threats of eternal damnation.

 

[Damien Black]

I'd be far less offended if the work was about a paganistic god. I've never been hated, condescended to, or insulted for not believing in them. Really, the issue with Judeo-Christian themes is that they come across as the epitome of high-handed moralism. The word "preachy" springs to mind. Including a biblical ethical message in a work takes it from something that anyone can read and get something out of, to a direct assault on anyone in the audience who believes differently.

EDIT FOR CLARITY:

I have no problem with works that are upfront about what's going on... it's those that go "Surprise! He's Jesus/God!" that make me want to retch. There is also a trend to make it so that a character's situation immediately improves the minute they convert to a Christian set of values.

 

[The-Epicly-Named-Man]

Sort of, yeah. I've been rereading C.S. Lewis's Narnia books (for completely nostalgic reasons), and the Christian symbolism has been annoying me abit, to the extent where I've literally /facepalmed at how obvious it is. When I read them as a child I didn't really pick up on it till near the end, and at that point I wasn't bothered because I still believed, but in hindsight there's some messages in there that feel abit odd.

 

[Stilkon]

The addition of God to a piece of fiction doesn't necessarily ruin it, but it doesn't really add anything to it either. I don't think 1984 would've been more moving if Winston Smith was a priest, but his faith is quickly touched upon, and it doesn't spoil the book. However, [a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Behind] some books [/a] are very heavy-handed with it, and it can ruin it.

 

[TheIronRuler]

If the literature is good and having god in it improves it, I have no qualms about having an all knowing deity in it.

I have no problem with works that are upfront about what's going on... it's those that go "Surprise! He's Jesus/God!" that make me want to retch. There is also a trend to make it so that a character's situation immediately improves the minute they convert to a Christian set of values.

The last bit - it's about educating your audience, that's all.
The troubeling part lies at the following question - what values should I endorse? Since America is all about Christian Fundamentalism, then it's christian values in most hollywood cookie-cutter movies. Literature? It's all about the author.

 

[blipblop]

some greatnes has come from having god in a story
just check my avavtar

 

[Zakarath]

Depends; I don't particularly mind it when it's some fantasy novel and there's a couple gods doing a little meddling behind the scenes, but if there's some analog for the Judea-Christian god and the writer gets a little preachy about it, well, that really irritates me.

 

[Arsen]

For me, atheism and paganic entities (sometimes, it depends on the characters) ruin everything. Almost at the same time that there seems to be no moral center to some stories. I'm a major fan of John Milton's "Paradise Lost" in that it can be seen as a greek version of Satan being portrayed as the hero, but within the same vein the historcial malevolence of the character is kept intact. The lines where Milton portrays him as beautiful are in truth, boistrous, arrogant claims at power.

The same can, and I know how this is going to sound, with Richard Dawkins. Love the guy, enjoy the science he's done, but too often does he stray into a realm and territory where his knowledge falters completely. Great scientist, brilliant mind...but it's horrible how ignorant he is over the concept of religion.

The same could be said of me whenever I was reading Stephen King's "The Dark Tower" series. Towards the end of the series he made Ronald Reagan out to be the anti-christ (in a parellel worlds sort of way)...so in a sense it does ruin the tale for me when I feel as if the fun factor and love I have for the the symbolic powerful about God and man's actions is...thrown away for petty political opinions.

I was also reading a short story by Neil Gaiman, I can't remember which one, but holy shit does he go against Christianity here and there. I considered putting the book down and never reading his short stories again. I didn't...but was heavily offended as a reader.

Therein lies the insinuation of the overall problem though: That Christianity deserves to be heavily criticized but these othe faiths, beliefs, etc...don't. At all. Under any notion. Why do these thoughts come into play? The belief that the amount of power one organization holds over an extended amount of time, which is arguable that it's not even Christianity..just the organized form of it, gives more power to those of other beliefs. If this is the case then it's the sins and wrongdoings of individual human beings, not the overall religion itself.

So to answer your question...it's the non-Christian, morality deficient stories to some fantasy tales that causes me to feel distraught at times.

 

[lukeyk]

In just about all books and stuff I read/watch/play if there is a metaphor for god its either not hugely present or actually asks deep meaningful questions about it.
However that may be because most of the books I read are somewhat deep For example at the moment I am reading the Ben Elton books and in particular Blind Faith. Its rather good.

So no having a metaphor for god or any other spiritual medium doesn't wreck it for me D:

 

[Zakarath]

For me, atheism and paganic entities ruin everything. Almost at the same time that there seems to be no moral center to some stories. I'm a major fan of John Milton's "Paradise Lost" in that it can be seen as a greek version of Satan being portrayed as the hero, but within the same vein the historcial malevolence of the character is kept intact. The lines where Milton portrays him as beautiful are in truth, boistrous, arrogant claims at power.

The same can, and I know how this is going to sound, with Richard Dawkins. Love the guy, enjoy the science he's gone, but too often does he stray into a realm and territory where his knowledge falters completely. Great scientist, brilliant, mind...but it's horrible how ignorant he is over the concept of religion.

The same could be said of me whenever I was reading Stephen King's "The Dark Tower" series. Towards the end of the series he made Ronald Reagan out to be the anti-christ (in a parellel worlds sort of way)...so in a sense it does ruin the tale for me when I feel as if the fun factor and love I have for the the symbolic powerful about God and man's actions is...thrown away for petty political opinions.

I was also reading a short story by Neil Gaiman, I can't remember which one, but holy shit does he go against Christianity here and there. I considered putting the book down and never reading his short stories again. I didn't...but was heavily offended as a reader.

Therein lies the insinuation of the overall problem though: That Christianity deserves to be heavily criticized but these othe faiths, beliefs, etc...don't. At all. Under any notion. Why do these thoughts come into play? The belief that the amount of power one organization holds over an extended amount of time, which is arguable that it's not even Christianity..just the organized form of it, gives more power to those of other beliefs. If this is the case then it's the sins and wrongdoings of individual human beings, not the overall religion itself.

So to answer your question...it's the non-Christian, morality deficient stories to some fantasy tales that causes me to feel distraught at times.

Man, you'd love the His Dark Materials trilogy. (j/k)

 

[Something Amyss]

And yes, my objection is almost entirely with the Judea-Christian God, because other gods, like Zeus, were portrayed as a more human character that had humility. God apologized for one thing in the whole bible and some of the things he rained hellfire down for were silly.

If you're talking about the pop culture version, then yes, Zeus is human and fuzzy. But man, have you actually read Greek myth? Guy was a real jerk.

Pop Culture Zeus is kinda like looking at Morgan Freeman as God in Bruce Almighty. The Christian God comes off as a real dick in the Bible, but Morgan plays a kinder, friendlier God who doesn't smite Bruce, but teaches him a lesson by giving him enough rope to hang himself. Well, technically, he did get smote at least once, but he isn't outright killed for his blasphemy.

God cursed entire families for less in the Bible. Freeman's all "You think you can do better? Okay. I'm out of here. See ya in (Time frame)."

And Zeus is often portrayed that way, but so are a lot of Gods who were complete monsters or asses. The Greek Pantheon were a bunch of jacked up hillbillies with Cosmic powers and acted as such. Don't hold one religion to the source material and not the other is all I'm saying here.

 

[Something Amyss]

The same can, and I know how this is going to sound, with Richard Dawkins. Love the guy, enjoy the science he's done, but too often does he stray into a realm and territory where his knowledge falters completely. Great scientist, brilliant mind...but it's horrible how ignorant he is over the concept of religion.

Dawkins is so full of himself it's a wonder he can talk. That's not so much a flaw in atheism as it is a flaw in many humans, many of which are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and other monotheistic believers. Arrogance and self-love are not atheist traits. They're human traits.

Therein lies the insinuation of the overall problem though: That Christianity deserves to be heavily criticized but these othe faiths, beliefs, etc...don't. At all. Under any notion.

And that, my friend, is a strawman you're currently knocking down.

 

[Soviet Steve]

Since I watch mainly scifi or documentaries, for Earth's folklore to suddenly appear as fact instantly ruins it for me. I can manage religion being discussed however.

 

[OrokuSaki]

If you're talking about the pop culture version, then yes, Zeus is human and fuzzy. But man, have you actually read Greek myth? Guy was a real jerk.

Pop Culture Zeus is kinda like looking at Morgan Freeman as God in Bruce Almighty. The Christian God comes off as a real dick in the Bible, but Morgan plays a kinder, friendlier God who doesn't smite Bruce, but teaches him a lesson by giving him enough rope to hang himself. Well, technically, he did get smote at least once, but he isn't outright killed for his blasphemy.

God cursed entire families for less in the Bible. Freeman's all "You think you can do better? Okay. I'm out of here. See ya in (Time frame)."

And Zeus is often portrayed that way, but so are a lot of Gods who were complete monsters or asses. The Greek Pantheon were a bunch of jacked up hillbillies with Cosmic powers and acted as such. Don't hold one religion to the source material and not the other is all I'm saying here.

I meant more that occasionally between his bastard children destroying the world Zeus looked down and said "Damn, I really fucked up there." And these moments actually occur quite often in Greek mythology where Zeus tries to use his bastard children to right some of his own wrongs. Also he actually somewhat lamented the killing of his father.

Whereas the Christian god did things like smite a tower for being too tall and didn't apologize to anybody like it was the right thing to do. And Jesus was put on trial before they crucified him and claimed he did nothing wrong.

 

[Wintermoot]

don,t think so as long as they don,t jack hammer conservative Christian values into it.

 

[Arsen]

The same can, and I know how this is going to sound, with Richard Dawkins. Love the guy, enjoy the science he's done, but too often does he stray into a realm and territory where his knowledge falters completely. Great scientist, brilliant mind...but it's horrible how ignorant he is over the concept of religion.

Dawkins is so full of himself it's a wonder he can talk. That's not so much a flaw in atheism as it is a flaw in many humans, many of which are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and other monotheistic believers. Arrogance and self-love are not atheist traits. They're human traits.

Therein lies the insinuation of the overall problem though: That Christianity deserves to be heavily criticized but these othe faiths, beliefs, etc...don't. At all. Under any notion.

And that, my friend, is a strawman you're currently knocking down.

I don't see how it's a strawman given the fact that it's one of the more prevailing thoughts throughout the general disagreeance with Christianity specifically speaking. Either that or it's the easiest one to attack, but overall people do exhibit that mentality towards "religion" and the "power struggle" portion of it to denote the immorality of it.

 

[TheXRatedDodo]

No, I don't think the inclusion of some form of spiritual or religious (despite them being one and the same,) subtext or message necessarily ruins anything. Perhaps if the message was heavy handed or unpleasant, but the fact that it had a spiritual subtext in and of itself is neither good nor bad.
A lot of people's problems with religion and spirituality I think stems from the need for something or someone to blame for the world's wrongs. God is frequently personified with human aspects and a human personality when personally what I've found is something closer to "God" being a state of mind; a representation of feeling connected to everything that is going on, being aware of the way events interrelate and having the desire to help others, spread love and to be non judgemental.
With the commonly held perception of what God is, I'm not surprised that so many people are atheists and that science and rationalism are now seemingly more common than theists.