Poll: Dragon Age: Templar-Mage War.

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LiberalSquirrel

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Jan 3, 2010
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In-game, it depends on my character. Personally? My sympathies lie more with the mages. Not the "blood magic crazy, affected by whatever weird backstory was going on in Kirkwall, being possessed by demons sounds like a good idea for a party" mages of Dragon Age 2, but the "oppressed by what they might possibly do" mages of the greater Dragon Age continuity. Because being judged on something that a small minority of a group is doing - being judged with fear rather than reason - is never right.
 

Misterian

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Oct 3, 2009
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RJ 17 said:
I'll answer the question of the topic first before engaging in some light-hearted conversation on some of your questions.

For starters: I don't think you'll be given a choice as to which side you pick. More likely it'll be another role like Hawke's: a neautral party caught in the middle.

Now, let's talk mages. One thing you have to keep in mind is that pretty much every major disaster that has occurred in Thedas came about because of magic. The Tervintir Imperium, an empire ruled by magic, is supposed to be the most ruthless and brutally terrifying nation in the world. Why? Because of their flagrant wallowing in their magical power. The Blights, themselves, came about when ancient Mages tried to use their magics to enter the Golden City, only to have The Maker cast them out and give birth to the first Dark Spawn. In the world of Thedas, a mage's curse isn't magic itself, it's a hunger for power.
That's not entirely true (though admittingly not entirely false), If you played Dragon Age: Awakening, you'd have learned that the 'Golden City' was already darkened when the Tevinter Mages arrived, which strongly implies that the whole thing was little more than a trap set for anyone who'd dare take the trip. So while I don't sympathize with the Tevinter Mages for their obviously selfish and reckless actions, I doubt they should be entirely at fault for the creation of the Darkspawn, plus I don't think you're taking into account how it was Blood Magic that helped create the taint that allows the Grey Wardens to stop the Blights.

To say that the history of magic in Thedas is a dark and bloody one is a complete understatement. That is why all mages are treated with suspicion. That's why all "good" mages willingly subjugate themselves to The Circle, they want to be good people and don't want to give into their urges for power. Ever notice how every mage that steps outside the circle ends up falling (except for The Grey Warden and Hawke, of course)? Look at the chaos caused by your best friend who flees the circle at the end of the Mage intro for DA:O. And entire kingdom overrun by nightly raids of the undead. Your friend meant no ill will, but it's because of him and his inexperience that a demon was able to take hold of the prince and cause all that slaughter.
Not ALL apostates end up falling, you're forgetting Meril in Dragon Age 2, who's both an apostate and a Blood Mage, yet she remains throughout the game as one of the most morally good teammates, admittingly her pact with the demon was intervened by her Dalish tribe's Keeper, but all Meril wanted was to unearth what the Elves lost when the Tevinter invaded them, which the Keeper and the rest of the Dalish in Dragon Age 2 suddenly were standing against (despite how the point for forming the Dalish as explained in DA: Origins was solely to preserve and search for what remains of the ancient Elven culture), and I don't think the game even explains this sudden change in goals.

As for Blood Magic, indeed, it's easily the most powerful form of magic that the player characters can invest in (AoE DoT+Stun spell? Ummmmm, yes please). What makes it evil is the fact that you can only be taught how to use it by a demon, or by reading a demonic tome. You might have the best of intentions with what you do with it, but you still gained that power through a pact with a demon (see Meril's subplot in DA 2). That's why Meril was an outcast. That's why Blood Magic is forbidden. That, and the fact that you don't use traditional magical energy in order to cast Blood Magic spells, you need to suck the life out of others or yourself if you want to do it, making you a force of bloody death and little else. It's fine for us as players, just chug a few potions and you're good to go. But in the context of the story, you're basically murdering your comrades to brutally murder your enemies.
Yes, you just briefly brought up the word 'tome' before emphasizing on 'Demon pact', it's clear enough there are several ways to learn Blood Magic without contacting demons (just not exactly within gameplay). Heck, Hawke from Dragon Age 2 can learn Blood Magic just be getting the needed specialization point, which can allow you to decide for yourself how he/she found a way to learn it. And to say 'in the context of the story' that blood magic is evil is being at least a wee bit unfair, I've seen a handful of moments in the Dragon Age games where mages have used blood magic for far least malicious stuff than draining the life force of your friends, which makes me stick to my previous opinion that what evil Blood Magic is used for is dictated by the the evil things that mages CHOOSE to use it for.
 

RJ 17

The Sound of Silence
Nov 27, 2011
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Misterian said:
That's not entirely true (though admittingly not entirely false), If you played Dragon Age: Awakening, you'd have learned that the 'Golden City' was already darkened when the Tevinter Mages arrived, which strongly implies that the whole thing was little more than a trap set for anyone who'd dare take the trip. So while I don't sympathize with the Tevinter Mages for their obviously selfish and reckless actions, I doubt they should be entirely at fault for the creation of the Darkspawn, plus I don't think you're taking into account how it was Blood Magic that helped create the taint that allows the Grey Wardens to stop the Blights.
Perhaps I missed it in the lore, but where does it say that the Grey Wardens use Blood Magic in The Joining? To me they're just chugging down Dark Spawn blood that has some magical ingrediants added to it. Then it's kinda like the Oroboros Virus from Resident Evil 5: to a lucky few, they become demigods like Wesker, everyone else becomes a horrific monster. In this case, though, you're either instantly killed by the Dark Spawn's Taint (like everyone who gets infected by their blood) or your body adapts to and embraces it, allowing you to live the cursed life knowing full well that you'll either go mad or die from the taint, but until that time you're given the power to fight against the Dark Spawn. And you have to keep in mind that we're outside witnesses to the stories in DA. To us it doesn't make sense to abuse the mages and keep them locked up, they're people just like everyone else. But in the context of the world of Thedas, magic is known and accepted as a force that leads to destruction and chaos. The Imperium stands as proof of that to this day.

Edit: And regardless of how it ACTUALLY happened, if the Golden City was always Black or not, according the Thedas' biggest religion, mages are the ones to blame for the Dark Spawn and the first Blight. Whether that's true or not is irrelevant, I'm just trying to answer your question about why mages are treated the way they are. To us, we can make sense of it, we see the treatment of mages as an injustice. But within the story, it's what everyone knows as a given fact.

Not ALL apostates end up falling, you're forgetting Meril in Dragon Age 2, who's both an apostate and a Blood Mage, yet she remains throughout the game as one of the most morally good teammates, admittingly her pact with the demon was intervened by her Dalish tribe's Keeper, but all Meril wanted was to unearth what the Elves lost when the Tevinter invaded them, which the Keeper and the rest of the Dalish in Dragon Age 2 suddenly were standing against (despite how the point for forming the Dalish as explained in DA: Origins was solely to preserve and search for what remains of the ancient Elven culture), and I don't think the game even explains this sudden change in goals.
Indeed, lets look at the case of Meril. For starters, she wasn't an apostate. She was a Dhalish Keeper-in-Training. Considering that the Elves aren't even part of the Chantry's religion, they're not bound to the Circle. Look at the outcome of Meril's meddling in Blood Magic: she ends up having to kill her Keeper, and if you don't play your cards right, slaughter the entire clan. Again I'll remind you that NOTHING good has ever come from Blood Magic (except The Grey Warden and Hawke using it to wipe out their enemies :p). No matter how great the intentions are, it always ends horribly. And the Keeper very specifically tells Meril why she's being cast out. For one: she's using Blood Magic and that's a big no-no. But beyond that, it's because the Keeper already knows that what she's trying to rebuild is something a great evil. Didn't you play through the Dalish opening in DA:O? Don't you recall that mirror being an evil force that kills your companion? Yes, the Dalish are trying their best to preserve the history of their culture, but every culture knows that some things are best left forgotten, like those cursed mirrors.

Yes, you just briefly brought up the word 'tome' before emphasizing on 'Demon pact', it's clear enough there are several ways to learn Blood Magic without contacting demons (just not exactly within gameplay). Heck, Hawke from Dragon Age 2 can learn Blood Magic just be getting the needed specialization point, which can allow you to decide for yourself how he/she found a way to learn it. And to say 'in the context of the story' that blood magic is evil is being at least a wee bit unfair, I've seen a handful of moments in the Dragon Age games where mages have used blood magic for far least malicious stuff than draining the life force of your friends, which makes me stick to my previous opinion that what evil Blood Magic is used for is dictated by the the evil things that mages CHOOSE to use it for.
And again, I'd remind you that keeping things in the context of the story is the only way to answer your question of "Why is Blood Magic seen as evil?" It's not evil to us, the players, because we have our main characters use it all the time without a second thought. That's why you HAVE to look at it in the context of the story. In the context of the story, there are only two canonical ways to learn Blood Magic: from a demonic tome, or from a demon directly. Regardless of how your character comes across the power, those are the only two ways to learn it. Simply put: Blood Magic is demonic magic, even if you learned it from a tome you're still using the magic of demons. Meril tried to use it with the intention of preserving her clan's history and ended up killing her Keeper (and possibly her entire clan). Your friend uses it to try and help a child and ends up unleashing an undead horde upon a kingdom. An ambitious mage uses it and utterly destroys Fereldin's Circle. I'm certain that if DA were like KotOR, Blood Magic would be considered a "Dark Sider" power and the more you used it the more you'd likely turn into a villain rather than a hero. But as it is, the story is linear, you can use any means you desire to have The Grey Warden and/or Hawke win. No one bats an eye at either of those great heroes using Blood Magic...why? Because they have plot-armor in being the Player Character. Though in the context of the story, every last one of your companions would likely turn on you if they knew you out-right used Blood Magic.

And it's true, considering everything you see in DA2...the fact that the head mage uses blood magic to turn himself into the most horrific of abominations, drawing a little bit of health from your allies so you can cast your magic seems like a trivial matter. But that doesn't make it a good thing. Put yourself in your companion's shoes, would YOU like the fact that your leader quite painfully draws your life and blood from your body to power his/her spells? Like I said, it's easy for us as the players, we just have them chug a couple health potions. But in the context of the story, what you're doing is actually very sinister.
 

el_kabong

Shark Rodeo Champion
Mar 18, 2010
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I have to side with mages. I think that both sides have their assholes that are willing to stomp on the other side and don't really care which innocent people get in the way.

However, templars are captors and jailors. They enforce martial law on all mages for the "greater good". Mages are prisoners whether they're guilty of anything or not. To damn someone to imprisonment just because of their birthright is pretty much just running parallel to any of the racially motivated genocides/enslavements that have occurred in our own world.

Because I'm a man who believes in human rights, accountability of individuals, and freedom in general, I can't reasonably support what the templars do. That doesn't make mage-terrorists like Anders in the right either, but an individual templar, at best, can be a sympathetic warden. Whether they directly mistreat the mages or not doesn't preclude the fact that they are enforcing policies that take away freedom from innocent people.
 

Sniper Team 4

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Apr 28, 2010
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I voted neither because, by this point, neither side is in the right anymore. Neither side is willing to compromise, neither side is willing to listen, neither side is willing to admit that the other side raises some very valid points. Both sides are now out for blood and do not care about anyone but their own kind. "Oh, you're helping the Templars? BURN!" says the mage to the villager who gave a Templar a glass of water. "Oh, you're helping the mages? Stabby!" says the Templar to the villager who gave a mage a piece of bread. Lock them all away on a island and let them kill each other off.

If pressed, if forced to choose for the sake of the universe, I'd side with the Templars. Yes, the mages have it bad. Yes, a good deal of Templars are abusing their position. However, mages are feared across Thedas, and for good reason. These are people who can murder entire villages if they feel like it, can control people against their will, and can become something even worse than a corrupted mage. These people need to be watched and kept track of. They are simply too dangerous to the general population of Thedas to be left alone. Just look at Tevintar (or however you spell it). That place is a nightmare for anyone who's not a mage.
Now, are there better ways to watch the mages? Can the Templars ease up? Can we get rid of some of the more...insane regulations regarding mages (seriously, they can't go out for a walk? Come on)? Yes. We've seen that mages and Templars can work together many times, the strongest case being in Dragon Age 2 when both sides agreed that the Knight Commander was out of control. Sadly, I don't think any of that is possible now until a LOT of blood has been spilled--or an even greater threat comes along, which is what I'm hoping for.
 

Joccaren

Elite Member
Mar 29, 2011
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Will depend on how they're presented in game, but judging from DA2, neither.
In DA2 the mages were hypocritical. "Save use we're being oppressed!", gets saved, goes out and causes problems with blood magic. Hell, even the head mage, when I decided to defend him and my sister against the Templars, turned himself into a fucking harvester rather than proving that mages can be civil and controlled. Then there's DA2 Anders. Dickhead caused the whole bloody conflict by blowing up the Chantry. Good job.
Yeah, the Templars are oppressive, and look at people like Meredith and I wouldn't side with them either. A lot of the Templars are just scared of mages and use their position as an excuse to abuse them for no real reason. They have overly heavy handed rules for control of the mages, and punishments given by templars are extreme.

Both sides are just stupid, and if I had the option I'd either wipe out both or set things back the way they were in Origins, in Ferelden's mage tower. Head mage and Head templar are almost friends, and whilst yeah, there are a couple of questionable characters on both sides, overall the tower is a peaceful enough place after the uncontrollable mages have been purged, and the trigger happy templars have had their commander tell them the error of their ways.
 

Ryotknife

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Oct 15, 2011
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Neither.

Both sides more or less recognize that it is a crappy situation, but they do NOTHING to solve this issue permanently. The circle is a bandaid. It would be fine as a temporary measure until they can figure out how to prevent mages from being possessed (without the circle) or to lessen the potential demon rampage. No reasonable person can expect that the circle would "work" forever, either the templars or the mages would break the status quo and send the system in chaos.

And yet, i see no mention of any kind of research associated with this problem. A drug which can mimic the effects of the Tranquil to a lesser degree? nope. A drug that suppress the users magic ability? nope. A magical device that allows long range detection of abominations so that the templars can use maximum force to eliminate the demon threat while reducing templar and civilian casualties? nope

nothing

Both sides are doing absolutely nothing. And it is not like they dont have the resources, time, or people intelligent enough to do research. The templars I imagine would be more lenient towards mages if they knew they were actively working on a solution, and the mages will be working on solving their problems, giving them hope for a better tomorrow.

You know what? the two deserve one another...
 

Elfgore

Your friendly local nihilist
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Dec 6, 2010
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You Know I really hated how they did the whole Templar-Mage war thing. Bioware just took the Templars and made them huge dicks (when they really could have been nice guys just trying to restrict magic users) , and then took the mages and made them look like abused slaves. It's quite stupid in my opinion.

OT: Though I am a huge fan of militant religious orders, sadly the Templars are just such dicks I had to go side with the mages. Who I don't even like. I'm a sword and shield guy god damn it not a wimpy little milk drinker spellcaster.
 

PrinceOfShapeir

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Mar 27, 2011
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The Templars go too far and let their vigilance turn into fear and hatred, but they are absolutely necessary. It's not fair that Mages have to be segregated and treated differently? Yeah, it isn't. You know what else isn't fair? Life. The Mages wield powers that no Human has the right to, power to lay waste to entire regions and do far worse things than just kill. They are the superman, and the Templars are quite right to teach that you should beware the superman.
 

Wolfenbarg

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Oct 18, 2010
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There was a rational faction in Dragon Age 2 which pretty much represents what I would want to do to resolve the conflict. If the mages win their autonomy, they could very likely end up dominating the continent like the Imperium does. If the Templars win, they'll be even bigger bastards than before. Balance is key.
 

Xdeser2

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Aug 11, 2012
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You Know what? In Dragon Age: Origins, this was handled in a much better way. It was a nice underlying current in society in the game, and it was good.

In Dragon Age II, they beat that horse to death. Maybe if the characters were a tiny bit likeable I'd give a shit, but Alas, no fucks are given anymore.
 

Zburator

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Aug 20, 2012
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At the end of the day, the existence of the Circle, and by extension, the Templars, is a cruel but necessary existence in the world of Dragon Age.

Look at the story of Meredith, her sister was a apostate mage who eventually lost to a demon, became a abomination before subsequently slaughtering Meredith's entire family and 70+ villagers.

In such a body, the existence of a body for the surveillance and education of magi becomes a necessity. The idea ain't fun, but it ain't wrong.
 

Emiscary

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Sep 7, 2008
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Won't matter, decision will be retconned/ignored within 10 minutes of making it. It'll mean the difference between starting on one end of the hallway dungeon, or the opposite end. Calling it right now.
 

Agayek

Ravenous Gormandizer
Oct 23, 2008
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If forced to choose, I'd side with the mages, just because the Templars a bunch of zealous nutjobs that need to be shot, each and every one.

However, the Circles are a necessity. Mages could, at any time, be possessed by a demon and go on a rampage that could easily end with a triple-digit death toll. They are, quite literally, ticking time bombs that are flat out unsafe to be around. If a mage proves themselves able to handle themselves safely, they should be given more and more freedom to move around, ultimately being able to live much like someone on parole, where they are limited to a given area and must check in with the Templars every week or so.
 

CardinalPiggles

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Jun 24, 2010
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Being the extremely indecisive person I am I'd like to remain neutral.

But, at the end of Dragon Age 2, I had to make a choice between Anders (who was also my characters' lover) and the Templar representative. I chose the Templar side because I believe in order above passion. Because control is the most important thing in a persons life. My Elven mage friend in the game also went psycho on me because of my passive sway towards control. So clearly mages can be extremely volatile.

Saying that though I certainly don't think keeping mages under constant scrutiny is the best way either. Anders was a prime example of a passive mage who would only want live his life in peace.

Man I'm very nostalgic for Dragon Age 2.
 

idon'tknowaboutthat

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Nov 30, 2009
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Xdeser2 said:
You Know what? In Dragon Age: Origins, this was handled in a much better way. It was a nice underlying current in society in the game, and it was good.

In Dragon Age II, they beat that horse to death. Maybe if the characters were a tiny bit likeable I'd give a shit, but Alas, no fucks are given anymore.
This guy. Right here.

Seriously, why do we have to choose at all in DA3? It was such a stupid plot in DA2, one that your character has almost nothing to do with. It shouldn't have been a "thing" in DA2, and it even more so shouldn't get another game devoted to it. Since when was this series only about templars vs. mages? Maaaybe if they brought back origin stories to give the player some sort of involvement in the conflict, but we all know they won't do that - that would mean a good game! Can't have that. Instead we get some random conflict that came out of nowhere that wasn't emphasized in DAO (which was hands down the better game) with the player shoehorned in as the savior of the galaxy even though we're not involved. (As far as in know, correct me otherwise.)
 

Frankster

Space Ace
Mar 13, 2009
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I tend to sympathise with Templars more tbh, even in da2 where both sides were equally idiotic.

Mages even before the threat of demonic posession are capable of eldritch magic which can defeat scores of even the best trained and determined soldiers thrown at them, i can see it rather easy being addicted to that power if not unchecked and end up like Tevinter (thats what it was called right? been a while since i plated da) with mages ruling everything and non magical people being peons and slaves.

The fear of magic is perfectly justified in my view, and this is BEFORE demonic possession where any mage can potentially be a gate to demonic powers.
 

Zakarath

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Mar 23, 2009
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Andraste Reborn and her dragon army shall lead us all in conquest over these heretics! BURN IT! BURN IT ALLLLL
 

ImperialSunlight

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Nov 18, 2009
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Speaking as someone who played a dedicated blood mage in both games...

Fuck the chantry, fuck the circle, and most definitely, fuck the Templars. That is the opinion of most of my Dragon Age characters.

But, honestly, the Templar-Mage conflict is extremely boring at this point. I'd prefer if they said "oh, well some massive worldwide threat is forcing us to put aside our differences for the good of the world!"

Sure, it'd be cliche, but it'd be better than going on and on about mages and Templars AGAIN.