Poll: Drawing the line between the artist and the person

[imagremlin]

Think for a moment of an artist/performer whose work you thoroughly enjoy. Then imagine learning that he/she is a strong advocate of something that really goes counter to your principles.

I've been a bit conflicted about certain artists. One example is KISS ex-guitar man Ace Frehley, whose show I like, but then there's evidence floating around that he's sympathetic to Nazi ideology.

Another is Brian Dunning, I discovered his Skeptoid podcast a few months ago, and since I really enjoy it I was considering donating. But then I learned this:

http://performinsider.com/2013/04/shawn-hogan-and-brian-dunning-both-guilty-of-affiliate-fraud/

Whilst I (probably) wasn't affected by his actions, he is the very kind of people actively turning the internet into a bad place. Now this is even more puzzling situation as I could legally continue to listen to the podcast and not support him.

Others I have no problem discarding altogether, whether because I did not like their work that much on the first place or because whatever they support is hits too close to home. I just wont consume their stuff.

Where do you draw the line?

 

[DoPo]

Erm, I'd go with "Other" I guess. I don't think my response would fit into any of the others:

Pirate their stuff - no, it's just stupid "Hurr, I don't like what he/she/they do outside of their works, so I'll still enjoy their works". Doesn't make much sense.

Boycott - if I really liked an artist, I'd find it really hard to boycott their works. If I did do it at the drop of a hat, that means I never really liked them to begin with. Then again, I suppose I could be pushed to that end...sort of - I doubt I'll actually "boycott" anybody - that implies I still care but force myself to stay away. No, instead I'd probably just be dissatisfied enough to not like them any more. So it's not like I'm "boycotting" on purpose but rather not buying because I'm not interested.

Ignore the issue and support the artist - I doubt I'll do that either. Or rather I may not do it, or I might. Depends on the "offence".

And if it ever happened to me...I'm not sure. I can recall two instances from the top of my head but neither is really "dramatic" and important or anything like it.

First, there was Blizzard Entertainment - I used to be a big fan of their games, up to Warcraft 3 and the first WoW (before the expansions, I mean). But then...I noticed some of their business decisions and direction. How can I put it - they were focused on winning and retaining players. Nothing too creepy or evil (ok...one can definitely have an argument that "creepy and evil" actually was the case but I won't go into it), however, it wasn't really up to my tastes. I'm saying this in the least "I'm offended" manner possible - I appreciate what they do and actually I do admire some of Blizzard's decisions, I even have great faith in their games, I only don't want to play them because I'd get hooked. That's it. That's the reason why I decided to not get Diablo 3 - a decision I made way before it was even announced - I realised how much time I had spent in Diablo 2 and other Blizzard games and came to the conclusion that, while a good time sink, I'd prefer to put my hours elsewhere. Well, also D3 turned out to be less than what I expected, however, I'd have still played it if I hadn't decided not to several years ago.

Second, there is Leif Jones. You probably don't know him but he has done a lot of artwork for World of Darkness books. He pretty much defined what I visualise when I think of it. Here is some of his artwork

Spoiler: samples

Pretty standard to be honest

A bit more interesting, IMO

This one I like - it's more distinct and quite cool

Something in colour

A more different character style (bit hard to tell if you haven't seen the more "usual" style)

Probably my favourite, sorry for the small version. I would have used this for an avatar if I could - but there is just so much detail, that I can't be forced to make shrink it or crop it.

And. yes, he's even responsible for this image

Spoiler: Ever seem this guy?

Ever seem this guy?

So, in short, I rather like his artwork. He does have, however, some frankly disturbing stuff. I don't think I can link it but you can look it up - WTF, D&D?! had an article on Vampire the Masquerade artwork. Two of them, even. Hit up the second one (More Art) and you can't miss it. NSFW big time - the fact that it features a female version of Marilyn Manson is the tamest. It is something that made me go over what I think of the guy's artwork. In the end, I did shrug it off and decided to ignore it, but still.

 

[aba1]

I always felt peoples private/personal and work lives should be considered separately. Sometimes you have to do things you don't necessarily agree with for your job for example and who would want to be judged in their personal lives based on purely business related decisions or even the other way around.

 

[Evil Smurf]

As a Christian and Manson fan, I ignore the antichristian messages in his music.

 

[Something Amyss]

Depends on the offense, the scope, and how separate it is from his/her/their message.

I don't think I could knowingly support a Nazi or the like, and I have trouble supporting homophobes and the like. But I tend not to care too much unless it actually does bleed over into their work.

 

[excalipoor]

Arin Hanson AKA Egoraptor is a smart guy, but he comes off as such a cynical, nostalgia blind hipster sometimes. I'm still eagerly waiting for the next Sequelitis, as even though it seems that I play games for totally different reasons than he does, he has some pretty thought-provoking shit to say about game design.

Not that any of this makes him a bad guy, I just can't relate is all. And since his stuff is free, the worst I could do is deny him a single view...and I'm not quite that petty and bitter just yet.

Knowing something unsavory about an artist does color my perception of their work, but unless it's really transparent, I really couldn't care less. Chris Benoit murdered his wife and son before hanging himself, and he's still one of my favorite wrestlers of all time. At the time of the incident he was basically a senior Alzheimer's patient in a 230 pound wrestler's body, so I'd like to think the reins weren't entirely in his hands anymore.

The only company I boycott is Gameloft, but that's easy because their products are just second-rate ripoffs anyhow.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

On principle, seeing as I advocate seperation of public and private life, I would say ignore the issue and consume the content, because whatever kind of a dickbag they may be, they have worked hard on something that you would enjoy. As long as they don't convey their views in the content, I don't think you should be punishing them for it. You're not supporting their views by buying a game that isn't representative of them.

Then again, maybe I'm being childish and irresponsible, and you should be thinking about what your money will go towards after purchase, but I don't think that's the case. As much as I dislike EA's marketing practises, I wouldn't begrudge them a purchase if they were selling a game with no DRM, no microtransactions, no on-disc or launch DLC, no preorder bonuses, no special editions around launch, and at a reasonable price.

There's also the simple fact that it is difficult for a developer to distinguish between lack of sales because the game isn't very good and lack of sales because your audience are moral crusaders. They're not going to get the point.

And all this said, I don't think I've ever been affected by views held by developers as strongly as some people would, being a white male. I probably wouldn't play a game that promoted women above men in an obnoxious and not thought-provoking way, but I would play a game made by a mysandrist without mysandric elements. I apologise for bringing up sexism, there's really not much anti-Semitic or Nazi views do to me.

What you can do however, is make it clear to the developer that you do not agree with their views and that is why you have not purchased their game/and you have ignored that because their game is good. They're not psychic.

EDIT: I flip back and forth between game and content, but you catch my meaning.

 

[BathorysGraveland2]

Well, I listen to several black metal bands that are open about having NS ideologies. It really doesn't matter to me at all what the musicians believe. For me, it's the music that counts. That would go for other mediums too.

 

[Bug MuIdoon]

I was having a similar discussion about this the other day with a buddy of mine. We were discussing how the radio or music venues/clubs will stop playing an artists song if they're convicted of child sex crimes/rape.

 

[xPixelatedx]

Where do you draw the line?

I don't, and I honestly think doing so is silly. If you base every purchase or personal interest on the morality of the people behind your object of focus, then trust me when I say you'll have nothing at the end of the day. Connect enough dots and you'll eventually get back to some seedy, scum-of-the-earth people and horrible atrocities against humanity. *coughapplecough* Or, at the very least, someone the very opposite of you. That's ok though, I think we should be able to admire the things our enemies make; if just fore the sake of intrigue (if anything else).

Shadow Complex is easily one of my favorite (maybe my absolute favorite) game of this generation, but one of the people behind it isn't worth two dog shits and in all honesty the world would probably be a better place without them. It's cool though; I am more interested in the game, not the personal life of the 100's involved in the project of it's creation.

Arin Hanson AKA Egoraptor is a smart guy, but he comes off as such a cynical, nostalgia blind hipster sometimes. I'm still eagerly waiting for the next Sequelitis, as even though it seems that I play games for totally different reasons than he does, he has some pretty thought-provoking shit to say about game design.

Yeah, I don't think he is neccisairly a "nostalgia blind hipster" as much as he's just looking for very specific things in games; things that were very abundant before, but are rarely present today. I know, I'm the same way.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I generally judge "artists" on the content they create and hardly ever care about what they themselves have to say. Off all the stuff I like, there's bound to be some made by people with a slightly warped view.

Ofcourse there's a line, and should I discover said artist is a nazi sympathizer or the like, it would ultimately reflect badly on their work for me. This is why I tend not to go looking for what beliefs or opinions my favourite artists hold; I might not like what I find.

 

[Lieju]

It depends on how bad the thing that offends me is, and if the artist is still alive and how vocal they are about it.

I mean, I'm a fan of many artists who lived in totally different times, so their opinions on race, gay rights or women can be pretty scary.
But it's all in the past.

But if the artist is still alive, and very vocal about their opinions about how the Nazis were totally ok or something I really have a problem with, then I'd have an issue with giving them money and supporting their work which will give them the platform for their opinions. If I really liked their work, I'd try to get it from a library or borrow it from a friend, and not pay for it.

If they keep their opinions private, well, I probably wouldn't know about them anyway, and didn't care.

 

[Yopaz]

It depends on how bad it is. Some artists I really like support PETA, but that doesn't bother me that much because I am a strong believer in animal rights. Because of that I strongly disagree with PETA, both their ideology and methods, vut I can accept that people support PETA for their own reasons.

If they were supporting something like a Nazi movement then I would be more reluctant and probably boycott their products.

It would also depend on how important they were in their specific media. I wont boycott a game because I disagree with the publisher or one of the guys working for the publisher or the developer. If it's the lead singer in a band or the head developer then I think I'd be reluctant.

I have never really had any of these happen though. The worst thing is PETA support so I can't really be sure if I would boycott or buy in this kind of situation.

 

[loa]

I could still enjoy michael jacksons music when he allegedly was a pedophile.

 

[Sandernista]

I always felt peoples private/personal and work lives should be considered separately. Sometimes you have to do things you don't necessarily agree with for your job for example and who would want to be judged in their personal lives based on purely business related decisions or even the other way around.

But what if the money you spend on their work goes directly or indirectly into funding something you find distasteful or down right evil?

 

[Casual Shinji]

should I discover said artist is a nazi sympathizer or the like

i'm tempted to wonder if you've had any dealings with Fanta (and thus The Coca-Cola Company), Hugo Boss (designed and made the nazis uniforms no less), IBM (not typing this on a dun, dun, dur "IBM" PC are you ? ), Random House publishing, Kodak, Siemens, Bayer, Ford, Daimler Benz, Porsche, Volkswagen and a whole host of major anks (most notably Chase) ?...

i'm just screwing around...don't take it serious

You forgot Wagner.

I once saw a whole documentary where Stephen Fry, having jewish ancestors, tried to come to terms with loving Wagner's music despite him being a big fat anti semite.

 

[Mr. Eff_v1legacy]

A person's beliefs really don't matter to me. It would really depend on how I thought I was contributing to it. If they were the head of an organization I strongly opposed, for example, and I thought the money would contribute to that, I'd think twice.
Thus far I have not run into anything of the sort.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

When an "artist" or "performer" decides to bring in personal beliefs to and change the direction of their work I tend to tune out (note: this is only directed toward people who aren't previously known for their ideology). Isaac Hayes/Chef's departure from South Park (making fun of other religions, ok by Isaac, making fun of Scientology = crossing the line? WTF?) Green Day's more recent albums, System of a Down post-Toxicity are examples.
Rage Against the Machine was a band that started their music as a form of expressing political views: OK in my book, they started out that way.