Poll: Dubstep. Music or not music?

[GoaThief]

Oh I get you now ? Ill tell the publishers of my text books they are incorrect because someone on the internet told me so, thank you! you have saved my university! are there any other subjects you disagree with because pop culture is more important that factual information ?

So allegedly you want to take it to academia? OK, give us the source of that quote. You could be making it up for all we know. As an aside, what you do think of universities offering degrees in Music Technology? Are they somehow excluded from your viewpoint? What university are you at which teaches that there are no such things as electronic instruments?

electronic isn't some major breakthrough in the advancement of human kind... its stoners making bass sounds with computers... take a short walk off a long cliff mate, you are clearly a few brain cells short of a working human being

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKLpJtvzlEI if dub step is music this was a complete waste of a great musical composers time...

Oh, idolising Clint Mansell? Interesting. Very interesting. You see he's quite a big on electronic music, even writes his on computers for others to perform when it comes round to recording sessions. He was also a bit of a rock n roll excessive, do you remember a band called Pop Will Eat Itself too? He was the lead man in that which heavily used sampling and electronics, even collaborating with the Prodigy for a tune. Want some quotes from the man to go with that?

Which composers do you admire?

CM: The one I always go back to is John Carpenter. His films are probably seen as B-movies, but when I first saw stuff like Hallowe'en or Assault on Precinct 13 I thought, yes, these are the kind of sounds I want to hear. Electronic, very ominous, but melodic as well. They had a real quality that made me say 'OK: I'm into this film'. Carpenter's music was one of the first things Darren and I bonded over. I think Pi, looking at it now, is very Carpenteresque. We wanted something that hit you, we wanted a melody, we wanted something ominous, and we wanted this brooding nature.

Surely you're familiar with John Carpenter? Well known for his electronic music and scores.

Q:Your partnership with Darren is like that of Angelo Badalamenti and David Lynch. And Lynch, who's what, sixty-something now, has released a couple of dance tracks.

CM: He put them out last month, yeah, and they're good! People said they sounded like Underworld, which is quite complimentary. Have a nice day, or have a good... 'Good Day Today', I think it was called. But he did that stuff with Dangermouse as well, and with the guy who was in Sparklehorse.

Saving the best for last;

Q:With the accessibility that the internet allows, and advances in available musical technology, do you think there's a chance that low-budget or independent film-makers will be more adventurous or creative with their soundtracks?

CM: Without a doubt. Some people moan as if 'that's not real music' or electronic music isn't real music, but I said this even to myself ? I got an app for my iPhone that makes it look as if you've filmed things using Super-8. And you've got that Hipstamatic thing that everybody on Facebook's using for their photos. It's great, but once things become easily available they become overused. But this is where talent and individuality come in. Somebody takes a look and sees what's going on in the populace, and does something away from all that but is somehow as good as all that. Or is understanding of all that, and put into a new context. That's what'll happen ? the four-track tape recorder came along just like that, and allowed our first band to multi-track ideas on a cassette and work out how to make songs. It was a fantastic development for us. Now kids have laptops they can record into. But talent is the one factor you can't buy. You've either got it inherently, or you're prepared to work at it until you create something that's good.

Having access can only mean that that can happen more. It's exciting when people just go for it, do their own thing, kind of fuck convention, try and find their voice and express themselves. That's how you get people like Darren Aronofsky, or Gaspar Noé, or Quentin Tarantino, or David Lynch. People doing their own thing, saying 'this is what's important to me'.

Source [http://thequietus.com/articles/05670-clint-mansell-interview-black-swan]

Seems that even your idols think you're a silly moaner. Over to you, don't forget those textbook and University references.

 

[GoaThief]

Oh yes, almost forgot about PI. This is Clint Mansell's own electronic music composition which I quite dig, not only because it's one of the genres I write my own in (Jungle);

 

[Samantha Burt]

Doesn't make a difference, refusing to call something music is a personal belief. A fucking opinion. I'm not repeating the obvious again.

Exactly, just like refusing to call broccoli a vegetable is a personal belief. I think it's chocolate, and that's my opinion, you can't disagree with it. (Wait, what?)

Art is not defined. Anything can be art by the express intention of presenting it as such. If someone makes a noise and presents it as music, it doesn't matter its quality, it's music. No-one says you have to like the fact that it's music, but it's not a matter for discussion.

 

[SirDerick]

(Snip)
Seems that even your idols think you're a silly moaner. Over to you, don't forget those textbook and University references.

that was... if I ever meet you on the street remind me to shake your hand, that was beautiful.

Also: has anyone posted this yet?
<youtube=3l_hy33-1Yw>

 

[Vault101]

okay, first off, that (song) was terrible,

That's just your opinion (actually mine too, but its still just opinion, I loved the one in the OP)

.

you too?

don't mind me......[small/]I'm just off to burn my records...I mean delete my MP3's[/small]

 

[Grant Hobba]

Practically every argument against Dubstep being music can be countered by saying "Surely Pink Floyd isn't music either then?"

You might not get it. A lot of it (like prog rock) is shit. But when it's good, it's good.

Okay I'll try to keep this one short,

not using an instrument is for the musically talentless.

Pants. On. Head. Retarded.

notice how all the people hitting the tubs with drum sticks have the tubs equipped with drum skins? that makes them a percussion instrument....

the clanging is a cymbal....

so this is use of musical instruments... this is a percussion piece that follows time the structure of significant percussion pieces...

can you name the performing media in the piece, do you know the format of the song? can you outline the 5 concepts of music used in that video?

 

[Blarkuntvhite]

notice how all the people hitting the tubs with drum sticks have the tubs equipped with drum skins? that makes them a percussion instrument....

By what laws? Is anything we attach pig skin to and whack with a stick considered an instrument now?

 

[Vault101]

notice how all the people hitting the tubs with drum sticks have the tubs equipped with drum skins? that makes them a percussion instrument....

By what laws? Is anything we attach pig skin to and whack with a stick considered an instrument now?

ask if its in his textbook....

 

[Grant Hobba]

notice how all the people hitting the tubs with drum sticks have the tubs equipped with drum skins? that makes them a percussion instrument....

By what laws? Is anything we attach pig skin to and whack with a stick considered an instrument now?

ask if its in his textbook....

You know those things called acoustic drums, they have actual specifically made sticks and thats what they were using as well as polyester drum heads... most often found on you guessed it, acoustic drum sets.

10 points if you can outline the texture, structure and tone colour of the piece mate.

Here, ill do it for you, Texture: there is a thin to medium texture, only 3-4 specific rhythmic lines occurring at any one time. However later in the piece the texture gradually thickens as more elements are introduced throughout the excerpt

The tone colour is quite vast, the performing media is a various assortment of percussion instruments, for the cymbals, aluminum lids are used, they perform in both clashing motion and sliding,

there are large tubs used as tempanis for large striking motions,

for the lighter rhythms there are oil cans, rubbish bins and other household metal objects being struck with drum sticks.

The structure however has 1,2,3,4,5,6,1,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,1,15 as a format, intro not counted, the chorus or main section is repeated 3 times, it does not however follow any specific format.

that was a very basic answer but my point is... that's aural... that's a very high school level attempt at aural but my point is... that's why you need to understand the concepts of music...

 

[DoomyMcDoom]

As a man with varied musical experience, including 8 years of classical piano and 2 years of bass(Electric, Jazz), I will say saying dubstep is not music is akin to saying that anything made on a synth keyboard or anything ever using a drum machine, or any form of square lead or full synth in recording is only kinda music, or say any form of electrical stringed instrument because really what you are hearing is for the most part a Midi synth putting out sounds, that are kinda related to what the person holding the instrument is doing with their fingers.

With dubstep or any form of dance/techno/DnB or any kind of music where mixing samples and adding effects is the main form of creation, really it's all about creating a melody out of sounds, which is EXACTLY what a musician is doing with an instrument, only a different medium than what people were used to when the technology used in it's creation didn't exist.

We will inevitably see this kind of argument forever as new forms of instrumentation and sound making are used to create melodies or sound patterns that cause different electrochemical reactions in the brain.

Because like it or not, music is more mathematical formula than anything else, sure a lot of people think of it as created by "feeling" but since your brain is essencially just a computer made of meat, that feeling, is simply the way you experience complex or sometimes simple formulas working themselves out inside your head.

I would further suggest that if you don't like something, you can now say, "That formula DOES NOT COMPUTE!" and be just as valid as someone saying that it isn't music, because you may not have the same programming as someone who does enjoy it.

Peace out friends, and continue liking what ever you like.

 

[Vault101]

10 points if you can outline the texture, structure and tone colour of the piece mate.

relevance to anything...I absolutly LOVE to know it...

anyway

I noticed you still havn't addressed any of the new points I raised before

ok, mabye youve given up arguing with me, becauce my persistance has driven you mad. And maybe your angry because you went and made a thread where you at least expected somone to "get" your point but it blew up in your face.

you know what? I'm not even mildly annoyed anymore, youve proven time and time again how rediculous your point really is, and seem to have some kind of supiriority complex because your stuying music, your persistance is admirable though...I'll give you that

here's another peice of advice

[quote/]... are you really that retarded?[/quote]
[quote/]your ignorance to the art form of music is sickening.[/quote]

[quote/]so kindly go bug other people who actually have the time for this and aren't spending their lunch breaks arguing with twats who wouldn't know music if it jabbed them in the bonce.[/quote]

[quote/]WE WERE TAUGHT IT IS MUSIC ONLY TO KEEP SNIVELING MORONS LIKE YOU QUIET [/quote]

[quote/]oh and retard... I wouldn't call classical primitive you are a fucking joke if you think so....
[/quote]


don't do that, it does nothing but make you look worse and that shit will get you banned, you actually put some effort into your profile so I get the impression we don't want that just yet

somtimes it pays to be your own worst cirtic in regards to evaluating your own opinion..its ok to be wrong now and again

oh and accepting somthing blindly "because it says" so it ignorance..pretty much

 

[SirDerick]

Practically every argument against Dubstep being music can be countered by saying "Surely Pink Floyd isn't music either then?"

You might not get it. A lot of it (like prog rock) is shit. But when it's good, it's good.

Okay I'll try to keep this one short,

not using an instrument is for the musically talentless.

Pants. On. Head. Retarded.

notice how all the people hitting the tubs with drum sticks have the tubs equipped with drum skins? that makes them a percussion instrument....

Did that fact hurt while you pulled it straight out of your ass? Look at the video. Yes, some of them are obscured, but as for the ones you can see, they clearly do not have any drum skins or any other modification on them.
At some point in their career, they even used basketballs as instruments. I would give my first born child for an instrument that I can play hoops with.

the clanging is a cymbal....

Yes, and I often slide on the ground with my cymbals for the sole purpose of creating sound.
(ok, that image just poped into my head and I want to try it.)

so this is use of musical instruments... this is a percussion piece that follows time the structure of significant percussion pieces...

So time and structure are important? I don't exactly see what's preventing electronic instruments from having structure.

In-fact, most dubstep is nothing but time and structure. Sure there's no significant precedent to it, but at some point there was no significant precedent to any of the other instruments either.

Hell, I would compare dubstep to 20th century abstract paintings; composition in it's purest form.

you know what? enough of this "Is dubstep music" bullcrap. All I want to do is listen to dubstep and watch ponies.

Spoiler: Oh god! I can do both at the same time!

<youtube=KjdM1f-a8RY>

 

[DugMachine]

notice how all the people hitting the tubs with drum sticks have the tubs equipped with drum skins? that makes them a percussion instrument....

By what laws? Is anything we attach pig skin to and whack with a stick considered an instrument now?

ask if its in his textbook....

You know those things called acoustic drums, they have actual specifically made sticks and thats what they were using as well as polyester drum heads... most often found on you guessed it, acoustic drum sets.

10 points if you can outline the texture, structure and tone colour of the piece mate.

Here, ill do it for you, Texture: there is a thin to medium texture, only 3-4 specific rhythmic lines occurring at any one time. However later in the piece the texture gradually thickens as more elements are introduced throughout the excerpt

The tone colour is quite vast, the performing media is a various assortment of percussion instruments, for the cymbals, aluminum lids are used, they perform in both clashing motion and sliding,

there are large tubs used as tempanis for large striking motions,

for the lighter rhythms there are oil cans, rubbish bins and other household metal objects being struck with drum sticks.

The structure however has 1,2,3,4,5,6,1,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,1,15 as a format, intro not counted, the chorus or main section is repeated 3 times, it does not however follow any specific format.

that was a very basic answer but my point is... that's aural... that's a very high school level attempt at aural but my point is... that's why you need to understand the concepts of music...

How is any of that relevant to the argument at hand? We get it, you're a first or second year University student who's studying music but nobody gives a shit about the rules or what ancient textbook you read that said "THIS IS MUSIC AND ANYTHING ELSE IS NOT." Now you're just scraping the bottom of the barrel, trying to bring shit up like the theory that only you and few others know to try and confuse but yeah no dice. Nobody is on your side and still you persist. Can't believe my jimmies are this rustled from all this.

If I were your professor i'd kick you straight out of my class. I hope your professor isn't the one feeding you this crap cause if he is he can take his theory and shove it up his ass.

 

[Grant Hobba]

10 points if you can outline the texture, structure and tone colour of the piece mate.

relevance to anything...I absolutly LOVE to know it...

anyway

I noticed you still havn't addressed any of the new points I raised before

ok, mabye youve given up arguing with me, becauce my persistance has driven you mad. And maybe your angry because you went and made a thread where you at least expected somone to "get" your point but it blew up in your face.

you know what? I'm not even mildly annoyed anymore, youve proven time and time again how rediculous your point really is, and seem to have some kind of supiriority complex because your stuying music, your persistance is admirable though...I'll give you that

here's another peice of advice

[quote/]... are you really that retarded?

[quote/]your ignorance to the art form of music is sickening.[/quote]

[quote/]so kindly go bug other people who actually have the time for this and aren't spending their lunch breaks arguing with twats who wouldn't know music if it jabbed them in the bonce.[/quote]

[quote/]WE WERE TAUGHT IT IS MUSIC ONLY TO KEEP SNIVELING MORONS LIKE YOU QUIET [/quote]

[quote/]oh and retard... I wouldn't call classical primitive you are a fucking joke if you think so....
[/quote]


don't do that, it does nothing but make you look worse and that shit will get you banned, you actually put some effort into your profile so I get the impression we don't want that just yet

somtimes it pays to be your own worst cirtic in regards to evaluating your own opinion..its ok to be wrong now and again

oh and accepting somthing blindly "because it says" so it ignorance..pretty much[/quote]


No I just stopped caring about how wrong you are,

The work I was quoting is Literacy works Musical Aural concepts,

The reason western music is the way it is and should stay like it is, simply because you can't measure dance in the old European defined terminology, while in aural analysis you can actually define synths as performing media they are not defined within the category of musical instruments, because that is not what they are.

For example, in Rusko's song cockney thug, there is 3 layers, vocals synth and beat. I would love the see how someone is to write that up on a stave ? , to see what key it's in because if you can't write it, it's not really ever going to be music?

as for the other post.. that was merely to vent, to be perfectly honest I do not actually care and I didn't think you would spend the time you did trying to embarrass me on it... it's a little sad.

any how, the whole don't say that, you'll get banned... again I don't really care.

Music has to have strict rules and guidelines or there are no boundaries, and with no boundaries it becomes anarchy, I am open to progression, but progression can't be acheived by ignoring what makes music.. music.

for example, bjork, I am not 100% familiar with her work, but she is a lot more progressive than dubstep and dance / electronica will ever be, there is not skill required to create it, only timing and that doesn't keep in with time signatures, although you can play syncopated with accents on off beats and play really weird time signatures, it just reeks of (I have no talent and therefore I make really loud bass noises by bending distorted bass tones....

believe it or not I actually listen to some pretty big mixes of music and in fact a perfect example of that is little green men by steve vai.... or how about Andrea Botticelli's works.... even so far as old school hip hop like Dre's stuff from back in the day.

I don't limit myself just because I love rock, in fact I like rock because bands like parkway drive challenge my practical skills on guitar, sweep picking is insanely difficult but I like it because the melodic lines in most metal are derived form old classical major scales and add about 10 on the difficulty meter.

 

[UFOROMANTIC]

I am music major, hear me roar

'Fraid you lost all credibility when you brought out the metalcore, bro.

 

[Grant Hobba]

notice how all the people hitting the tubs with drum sticks have the tubs equipped with drum skins? that makes them a percussion instrument....

By what laws? Is anything we attach pig skin to and whack with a stick considered an instrument now?

ask if its in his textbook....

You know those things called acoustic drums, they have actual specifically made sticks and thats what they were using as well as polyester drum heads... most often found on you guessed it, acoustic drum sets.

10 points if you can outline the texture, structure and tone colour of the piece mate.

Here, ill do it for you, Texture: there is a thin to medium texture, only 3-4 specific rhythmic lines occurring at any one time. However later in the piece the texture gradually thickens as more elements are introduced throughout the excerpt

The tone colour is quite vast, the performing media is a various assortment of percussion instruments, for the cymbals, aluminum lids are used, they perform in both clashing motion and sliding,

there are large tubs used as tempanis for large striking motions,

for the lighter rhythms there are oil cans, rubbish bins and other household metal objects being struck with drum sticks.

The structure however has 1,2,3,4,5,6,1,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,1,15 as a format, intro not counted, the chorus or main section is repeated 3 times, it does not however follow any specific format.

that was a very basic answer but my point is... that's aural... that's a very high school level attempt at aural but my point is... that's why you need to understand the concepts of music...

How is any of that relevant to the argument at hand? We get it, you're a first or second year University student who's studying music but nobody gives a shit about the rules or what ancient textbook you read that said "THIS IS MUSIC AND ANYTHING ELSE IS NOT." Now you're just scraping the bottom of the barrel, trying to bring shit up like the theory that only you and few others know to try and confuse but yeah no dice. Nobody is on your side and still you persist. Can't believe my jimmies are this rustled from all this.

If I were your professor i'd kick you straight out of my class. I hope your professor isn't the one feeding you this crap cause if he is he can take his theory and shove it up his ass.

It's relevant because if you don't understand the concepts of musical theory then you clearly have no validity to argue musical concepts...

I don't argue with my girlfriend over psychology and the spectrum in which peoples character traits fall into because I have no real understanding of the subject matter,

Point is if you don't know the text books aren't ancient the topics aren't and my lecturers would know more than you, I get it, you like art for the sake of art, but tell me how would you actually draft a manuscript of some dubstep, how about F - one - swagger by Bar 9, ?

once you do that you can call it music.

In fact give me a full aural analysis of how the composer created the use pitch to create interest in the piece ?

that's a really easy question too!

 

[DugMachine]

Music has to have strict rules and guidelines or there are no boundaries, and with no boundaries it becomes anarchy, I am open to progression, but progression can't be acheived by ignoring what makes music.. music.

Haha man, you just take music WAY too seriously! Hopefully you leave music to be remembered for the ages else this is all in vain. Have fun with your music degree and the job field bwahaha

 

[SirDerick]

[quote/]your ignorance to the art form of music is sickening.[/quote]

Actually, it's your ignorance that's sickening.

Art has always been about pushing boundaries, exploring the possibilities of what is simulating and acceptable.
Dubstep is the latest boundary we've pushed and we haven't explored all it's yet possibilities.
Now you say it's not music because "Music needs to have boundaries?" Bullshit.
Before the invention of the camera traditional painting and drawing also had strict boundaries. Shortly after the camera, artists were forced to rip down those boundaries. Yes it was anarchy, but from that anarchy came dadaism, surrealism abstraction and some of the greatest modern works of art that would never have been conceived if we didn't take those boundaries down.

I imagine what the art of music would be able to achieve if we took down those boundaries and I immediately jizz my pants with joy.

Those rules you keep quoting? They are guidelines, not an electric fence. You can and should dance around them.

 

[DugMachine]

It's relevant because if you don't understand the concepts of musical theory then you clearly have no validity to argue musical concepts...

I don't argue with my girlfriend over psychology and the spectrum in which peoples character traits fall into because I have no real understanding of the subject matter,

Point is if you don't know the text books aren't ancient the topics aren't and my lecturers would know more than you, I get it, you like art for the sake of art, but tell me how would you actually draft a manuscript of some dubstep, how about F - one - swagger by Bar 9, ?

once you do that you can call it music.

In fact give me a full aural analysis of how the composer created the use pitch to create interest in the piece ?

that's a really easy question too!

Nope! I'm done arguing with this brick wall. I learned all the theory I need to know in my few classical guitar classes and it helps me with my music. If you want to continue being stubborn and walking around with your dick out go ahead! Like I said, have fun with your useless degree!