Poll: Emma Watson's Speech on Gender Equality

[Eddie the head]

Nah I'm pretty sure gender roles exist because of biology, not social pressure.

I think that's kind of a false dichotomy. It's both and the same thing and it's hugely complex.

 

[Kameburger]

I think her speech was all right, nothing particularly inspirational or offensive for me. I agree with the bit about feminism not being a women only issue, however, I do feel some sort of weird implication in her speech that men shouldn't feel ashamed to act less like men and in saying that she is telling you that men who behave like "men" are causing this problem. I don't like the idea of being a proponent of social issues, if only because I think you have to some how implicitly find a bad guy to defeat but at the same time, it is very difficult to define when you've hit your target or if there even is a target that would satisfy your goal.

What would female equality really mean? I'm still not quite sure what the definition is in clear sense. Equal pay? Also I know what that means in general but the more you narrow these things down, the more questions arise. I know that being a man has probably helped me in a very academic sense (meaning that I have a dry factual understanding of this concept and accept that I am included) but how do I quantify that? To say that a person with my exact life background but also happened to be female would not have the same opportunities as me, is also fair, but in what way? It's when this discussion begins that the complications begin to arise. I'm not saying that there is no argument, but more so that it's such an "if - than " argument that it is going to get messy, and we are left to make a lot of assumptions about what the world would be like if things were different.

To stop harassment or even violence towards women, I absolutely think that this is a top priority, but there is a lot of unclear messaging concerning what step I would need to take.

What I want to know and what I've always wanted to know and still have never once gotten a clear answer on, is: what can I do to help?
What role can I actually play in this struggle? I don't harass women, I don't act violently toward women, and I am not in a position to pay anyone, but if I had such power, I like to think that I'd be fair. So when Emma Watson says I don't have to live in the confinement of my manhood I still don't know what she's talking about. I think she's getting toward the right idea, but what is that supposed to mean for me?

Also, I'm becoming increasingly scared that the answer to my questions is that the mentality of humanity nearly as a whole needs to change, an almost evolutionary shift in the way we as a species perceives, and the mode through which this perception is translated into reality. I'm scared of this because I don't think we'll see it in my life time.

 

[Thaluikhain]

So when Emma Watson says I don't have to live in the confinement of my manhood I still don't know what she's talking about. I think she's getting toward the right idea, but what is that supposed to mean for me?

For example, if you want to wear pink and do ballet, that should be ok. There's no reason why a man shouldn't be allowed to do that.

What I want to know and what I've always wanted to know and still have never once gotten a clear answer on, is: what can I do to help?
What role can I actually play in this struggle? I don't harass women, I don't act violently toward women, and I am not in a position to pay anyone, but if I had such power, I like to think that I'd be fair.

That is a difficult question, with no simple answer.

But, I note you said "I like to think that I'd be fair", rather than "I'd be fair". That's a very important distinction. Many, many people are convinced that they are good people, and it is everyone else that's the problem. The people that say "I'm not sexist, but" and then say something sexist often seem to think they are totally free of sexism. They know sexism is wrong, they consider themselves to be a good person, so they can never say or do anything sexist.

Also, as well as not being sexist yourself, it's important to call others out on it. Which, of course, is never fun. You're sitting round socially with a bunch of mates, someone says something wrong, and nobody mentions it. If you speak up, you'll be the one "causing the problem", not the person whose fault it is. But if you keep quiet, you are saying that it's ok to say stuff like that, that it's not something you believe in enough to speak out about it.

But, mostly it's not remotely that simple, it's lots of attitudes, judgements that we make without knowing about it. We all know about the dangers of assumptions, but most of the time we make assumptions because we never realised that things could actually be another way. Very, very hard to do anything about that.

 

[Souplex]

A real man knows both which fork to use for the salad, and which fork to use to pluck out the eyeball of his enemies.
In both cases it's the one on the outside with the shorter stronger tines.

 

[Kameburger]

So when Emma Watson says I don't have to live in the confinement of my manhood I still don't know what she's talking about. I think she's getting toward the right idea, but what is that supposed to mean for me?

For example, if you want to wear pink and do ballet, that should be ok. There's no reason why a man shouldn't be allowed to do that.

What I want to know and what I've always wanted to know and still have never once gotten a clear answer on, is: what can I do to help?
What role can I actually play in this struggle? I don't harass women, I don't act violently toward women, and I am not in a position to pay anyone, but if I had such power, I like to think that I'd be fair.

That is a difficult question, with no simple answer.

But, I note you said "I like to think that I'd be fair", rather than "I'd be fair". That's a very important distinction. Many, many people are convinced that they are good people, and it is everyone else that's the problem. The people that say "I'm not sexist, but" and then say something sexist often seem to think they are totally free of sexism. They know sexism is wrong, they consider themselves to be a good person, so they can never say or do anything sexist.

Also, as well as not being sexist yourself, it's important to call others out on it. Which, of course, is never fun. You're sitting round socially with a bunch of mates, someone says something wrong, and nobody mentions it. If you speak up, you'll be the one "causing the problem", not the person whose fault it is. But if you keep quiet, you are saying that it's ok to say stuff like that, that it's not something you believe in enough to speak out about it.

But, mostly it's not remotely that simple, it's lots of attitudes, judgements that we make without knowing about it. We all know about the dangers of assumptions, but most of the time we make assumptions because we never realised that things could actually be another way. Very, very hard to do anything about that.

I appreciate your taking the time to respond. I certainly agree with you, and I think there are a lot of people who would like to say that they are not a part of the problem and never could be, but I'm fully aware that I could be. After all I've never been uncomfortable with my gender role in society, but I absolutely know people that were. I can't say I'm perfect, and I would always like to improve my self, but that perhaps makes me feel more uncomfortable. Feminism takes some many forms and different versions of feminism may have completely opposite beliefs. I don't quite agree with every point that's being made, and in a way as time goes on I feel more and more lost.

So of course, I would never expect these things to be simple, but I think that one of the discussions that needs to be had (and I realize this is my opinion but stay with me), is what exactly the goal is in all of this. What does equality really mean? What would complete victory feel like if we ever did attain it? Because if we just keep doing good things because they feel good, I feel we might set things up to be worse for us in the long run.

I think my metaphor for this is what happened when we replaced the type writer. At the time, the personal computer and word processor that allowed you to edit things before you printed them, was thought to save paper because never again would you have to retype a whole page because you made small mistakes. So we created a much faster process that would help us save paper and be environmentally friendly. What happened in reality was the opposite. Now how many trees does the average student by him or her self, down through out their student years? How many times do we print out documents over and over and over just to fix small punctuation errors.

I mean I'm not arguing that the printer should not have been invented, or that feminism will ultimately produce bad results, my point is merely that we should think of what the problem is and don't fix symptoms but rather find and locate what's going on and try to tackle the problem. And I guess I feel like we don't do enough of that.

I mean even in the case of Anita Sarkeesian (I hate that I'm bringing this up again but she's the most prominent figure in gaming), she makes the point that there a lot of bad tropes in video games, a premise which I don't disagree with, but leaves the causes and solutions of those problems open ended. In a way it's all the important parts. I know I'm venturing into too much metaphor territory here, but if you tell someone who is heavy set that the big mac they love so much is bad for them, they've heard this before, and hearing it again is frustrating because it doesn't address any of that person's problems. Why is that burger bad for them? What can they eat instead of that burger? Is it ok to eat that burger sometimes or is it never ok? If you don't tell him any of those things than you might be having the same conversation with him the very next date when you see him with a Whopper in his hands because he has no basis to know that's not a better alternative.

Please let me know if what I'm saying is not ok, I really just want to understand as much as possible.

 

[ElMinotoro]

snip

You are a beautiful human being and I wish more people in the world would follow your example in regards to self reflection.

 

[Neonit]

Of course it is. There is a certain expectation of man (and women as well). And even though those expectations lie in the same line as my behavior does - it is still a constraint.

Its the same as someone demanding that i sit behind in a classroom. Even though i prefer sitting behind (i am tall, and feel uncomfortable sitting in front), and would sit there from my own will - someone making demands, or expectations constraint my choice, and thus - bothers me.

I guess what im trying to say is, the argument "it doesnt bother me, because thats how i would act anyway" is, at least to me, comparable to "I have nothing to hide, and thus everyone is free to spy on me". Just because you think something doesnt effect you negatively, doesnt mean its good.

Also, i dont think we should be talking about "tearing down" current ideals - because then we are just replacing one ideal with another. Why not have multiple?

 

[The Lunatic]

Unfortunately, a number of people would just discard this as "Whining MRAs".

Regrettably, a number of those people call themselves "Feminists" and are "above criticism".

 

[Alexander Sexton]

Yes, because "housebitch" has been levied at me multiple times because I'm content with someday being a househusband. Any kind of gender role is harmful because it creates expectations and stereotypes for people before they're even fully formed people yet.

 

[Souther Thorn]

The definitions applied by others don't define me. I define me. If anyone chooses to judge me before knowing me (personally) then they can go attempt aerial intercourse with an oscillating pastry.

 

[Lieju]

Well, I'm not a guy, but I know many men who do have these kinds of issues.

Many of them are gay or bisexual and feel ashamed of not being 'real' men.
I've only really had discussions about this with men like this.

But I also come from a background where you are not considered a 'real man' unless you can build a house, so at the very least many younger men who live in cities I know have had to redefine masculinity.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

I put down maybe. The thing is, I don't give a fuck about social rules, if I happen to do something that falls in line with them, it's because I want to, not out of some social obligation.

We don't need to change masculinity/femininity, we just need to stop caring about it.

That was a great speech by Emma Watson though. A reasonable, less edgy/misandric approach to feminism which invites everyone to be involved in the discussion, looking toward actual equality rather than "You're oppressing me".
On a side note, I've noticed a lot less of that since I stopped paying attention to certain websites.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Expectations by defination are confining, regardless of gender. We're all expected to become stable members of society, we're all expected to get a respectable job, we're all expected to look the part and act the part, we're all expected to socially interact properly and have a sex life that actually includes genuine sex, we're all expected to not appear weak willed or emotional charged, we're all expected to act our age and grow up.

Most of these expectations are worthwhile, but they still confine you, and they stress you out when you feel like you're not living up to them.

As for Emma Watson's speech... Very 90's I guess.

 

[beastro]

One man's confinement is anothers focus point to keep on track.

 

[Bat Vader]

I don't know if it has been posted or not but it would seem Emma Watson is now being threatened that indecent pictures of her will be distributed over the internet. If it does happen I hope the person/people responsible are caught and severely punished. Just because someone dislikes what she says doesn't give that person a right to invade her privacy.

https://celebrity.yahoo.com/blogs/celeb-news/emma-watson-faces-disturbing-backlash-over-u-n--speech-181254105.html

 

[one squirrel]

I voted for no. Some traditional definitions and expecations do annoy me. But I am free to not to conform with these expectations. So they do not confine me.

I do think, however, that the "Suck it up and deal with it" attitude, that society tends to show towards men can be highly problematic and dangerous to the men themselves and the people surrounding them. I highly respect anyone who is raising awareness of this issue.