Poll: English/ British?

[bobknowsall]

And, you see, that's where we run into a little problem. You could call them "England and Ireland", you could call them "these islands", which is what they're called in official documentation, or you could call them the "Anglo-Celtic Islands" if you were feeling fancy.

Or, even more intelligently, they could be called the "British-Irish Isles", which would eliminate the problem entirely. Hmm?

Why would I do that? They've been the British Isles since the Romans were around.

No matter how much I may or may not want to be part of the EU, England and the rest of the British Isles are part of Europe. When I am refering to Europe as a whole I say "Europe", not "England and Europe".

Ah, you see, that's a logical assertion that doesn't follow.

Europe has been around for ages, and England has quite happily been a part of Europe since it formed. And the last time I checked, the English proved very fond of Europe. Great deal of attempted (and some successful) conquests.

The "European Union" is a political construct. The continent's name inspired the organisation, not the other way around. But the whole "Europe-EU" thing is irrelevant, because it's got little to do with the actual problem.

The salient question is this: Are there any countries called Europe? Was there a "European Empire"? Is there any reason why being part of a continent is offensive? Because that's something I'd really like to see you elaborate on.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

Ah, you see, that's a logical assertion that doesn't follow.

Europe has been around for ages, and England has quite happily been a part of Europe since it formed. And the last time I checked, the English proved very fond of Europe. Great deal of attempted (and some successful) conquests.

The "European Union" is a political construct. The continent's name inspired the organisation, not the other way around. But the whole "Europe-EU" thing is irrelevant, because it's got little to do with the actual problem.

The salient question is this: Are there any countries called Europe? Was there a "European Empire"? Is there any reason why being part of a continent is offensive? Because that's something I'd really like to see you elaborate on.

There aren't any countries called Britain either. The British Empire came out of the British Isles, not the other way round.

 

[bobknowsall]

Ah, you see, that's a logical assertion that doesn't follow.

Europe has been around for ages, and England has quite happily been a part of Europe since it formed. And the last time I checked, the English proved very fond of Europe. Great deal of attempted (and some successful) conquests.

The "European Union" is a political construct. The continent's name inspired the organisation, not the other way around. But the whole "Europe-EU" thing is irrelevant, because it's got little to do with the actual problem.

The salient question is this: Are there any countries called Europe? Was there a "European Empire"? Is there any reason why being part of a continent is offensive? Because that's something I'd really like to see you elaborate on.

There aren't any countries called Britain either. The British Empire came out of the British Isles, not the other way round.

Well, the "country" and "empire" bits were meant to be kept separate, but I didn't state that. Were this a formal debate, you would have won. Good on ye.

You can understand why I would prefer a different name for the Isles though, right? Because if you understand where I'm coming from, that's enough.

 

[thylasos]

You see, here in Ireland we refuse to use the term "British Isles" in the Dail. It's considered something of an insult, for reasons I'm sure you can understand.

You can refuse to use the term all you wan't, and I understand why, but that's what they're called.

Well, I did specifically say "in the Dail". That's not a linguistic tic, btw. It's our National Assembly.

And, you see, that's where we run into a little problem. You could call them "England and Ireland", you could call them "these islands", which is what they're called in official documentation, or you could call them the "Anglo-Celtic Islands" if you were feeling fancy.

Or, even more intelligently, they could be called the "British-Irish Isles", which would eliminate the problem entirely. Hmm?

Certainly. Even in the nomenclature of the state It's the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, thus liberating the Irish from being in the British Isles.

I approve of that, being of (extremely recent, i.e. My father) Irish heritage, though by no means "Irish" as a number of Americans would claim.

British Isles encompasses, to my mind, only Britain and such patheticaly insignificant places as Jersey and the Isle of Wight.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

Well, the "country" and "empire" bits were meant to be kept separate, but I didn't state that. Were this a formal debate, you would have won. Good on ye.

You can understand why I would prefer a different name for the Isles though, right? Because if you understand where I'm coming from, that's enough.

Of course I understand why, I've already said that. What I am trying to get across is that "British Isles" (albeit in ancient Greek) is a name for a particular geographical area and has been since before England existed. Culturally and politically "British" may have taken on certain connotations in the meantime but geographically the "British Isles" are 1 large island, 1 slightly smaller island and a bunch of tiny ones off the North coast of Europe, it does not mean "This belongs to England". When I say Irish accents are a geographically British accent, I mean exactly that.

 

[chiefohara]

Depends people forget that the UK is made up for 4 small countries so to speak
Ireland
Wales
Scotland
England


Since I personally live in England I would refer to myself as having a English accent.
Most people outside the UK would say I have a British accent because to them we sound very much alike. I know some Americans that can't tell my accent from another part of the country which sound different. Im in Lincolnshire (second largest county of England) and the other person was from Oxford, two very different accents.

Ireland is not in the UK.

 

[bobknowsall]

Well, the "country" and "empire" bits were meant to be kept separate, but I didn't state that. Were this a formal debate, you would have won. Good on ye.

You can understand why I would prefer a different name for the Isles though, right? Because if you understand where I'm coming from, that's enough.

Of course I understand why, I've already said that. What I am trying to get across is that "British Isles" (albeit in ancient Greek) is a name for a particular geographical area and has been since before England existed. Culturally and politically "British" may have taken on certain connotations in the meantime but geographically the "British Isles" are 1 large island, 1 slightly smaller island and a bunch of tiny ones off the North coast of Europe, it does not mean "This belongs to England". When I say Irish accents are a geographically British accent, I mean exactly that.

Yeah, research has shown me that the Greeks did have their mad "Pretannic Islands". Well, thanks for the debate. I actually learned something from it.

 

[chiefohara]

Well, the "country" and "empire" bits were meant to be kept separate, but I didn't state that. Were this a formal debate, you would have won. Good on ye.

You can understand why I would prefer a different name for the Isles though, right? Because if you understand where I'm coming from, that's enough.

Of course I understand why, I've already said that. What I am trying to get across is that "British Isles" (albeit in ancient Greek) is a name for a particular geographical area and has been since before England existed. Culturally and politically "British" may have taken on certain connotations in the meantime but geographically the "British Isles" are 1 large island, 1 slightly smaller island and a bunch of tiny ones off the North coast of Europe, it does not mean "This belongs to England". When I say Irish accents are a geographically British accent, I mean exactly that.

There is a similar debate on Derry and Londonderry.

Maps depending on where you buy them put the country they are bought in to the centre of the map, American world maps are different to European ones. Its a cultural thing rather than a geographical one.

You can be as pedantic as you want on the outdated British isles map label, It doesn't change the fact that accents within the Republic of Ireland are not British.

Irish and British Accents are both European accents because we are both European. Irish Accents however are not British ones, simply because we are not British.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

Maps depending on where you buy them put the country they are bought in to the centre of the map, American world maps are different to European ones. Its a cultural thing rather than a geographical one.

You can be as pedantic as you want on the outdated British isles map label, It doesn't change the fact that accents within the Republic of Ireland are not British.

Irish and British Accents are both European accents because we are both European. Irish Accents however are not British ones, simply because we are not British.

Right, and my culture refers to them as the British Isles, as do some others. I'm not saying they are British in the political sense, they are geographically part of the British Isles however so if you come from an area that refers to "the British Isles" and determine an accent as being a tone of speech originating from a particular geographical area, calling an Irish accent a British accent is correct.

Yeah, research has shown me that the Greeks did have their mad "Pretannic Islands". Well, thanks for the debate. I actually learned something from it.

Wow, learning something on the internet! Who'd o' thunk it?

 

[chiefohara]

Maps depending on where you buy them put the country they are bought in to the centre of the map, American world maps are different to European ones. Its a cultural thing rather than a geographical one.

You can be as pedantic as you want on the outdated British isles map label, It doesn't change the fact that accents within the Republic of Ireland are not British.

Irish and British Accents are both European accents because we are both European. Irish Accents however are not British ones, simply because we are not British.

Right, and my culture refers to them as the British Isles, as do some others. I'm not saying they are British in the political sense, they are geographically part of the British Isles however so if you come from an area that refers to "the British Isles" and determine an accent as being a tone of speech originating from a particular geographical area, calling an Irish accent a British accent is correct.

You're trolling now.

An accent from the Republic of Ireland is not British, for reasons that i have already outlined.

We are not British culturally, politically or georgraphically. The main reason your argument doesn't hold up geographically is because the borders which divide us are recognised not only by both our governments but also internationally, and both soverign states are recognised by the other as being entirely seperate entities.

The label 'British Isles' is out of date. That infers that only British people live there, and we both know that is quite far from the truth

 

[Zykon TheLich]

You're trolling now.

An accent from the Republic of Ireland is not British, for reasons that i have already outlined.

We are not British culturally, politically or georgraphically. The main reason your argument doesn't hold up geographically is because the borders which divide us are recognised not only by both our governments but also internationally, and both soverign states are recognised by the other as being entirely seperate entities.

The label 'British Isles' is out of date. That infers that only British people live there, and we both know that is quite far from the truth

Uh, what? Trolling? Classy, very classy.

An accent From the Republic of Ireland (heh, spelling) is geographically British, for the Reasons I have already outlined.

If you had even slightly bothered to read and understand what I'd written you would realise that second paragraph is utterly irrelevant.

The label "British Isles" is a name. It is a name in current usage that refers to Eire and Great Britain, not quite sure if Gurnsey etc are included.

 

[chiefohara]

You're trolling now.

An accent from the Republic of Ireland is not British, for reasons that i have already outlined.

We are not British culturally, politically or georgraphically. The main reason your argument doesn't hold up geographically is because the borders which divide us are recognised not only by both our governments but also internationally, and both soverign states are recognised by the other as being entirely seperate entities.

The label 'British Isles' is out of date. That infers that only British people live there, and we both know that is quite far from the truth

Uh, what? Trolling? Classy, very classy.

An accent From the Republic of Ireland (heh, spelling) is geographically British, for the Reasons I have already outlined.

If you had even slightly bothered to read and understand what I'd written you would realise that second paragraph is utterly irrelevant.

The label "British Isles" is a name. It is a name in current usage that refers to Eire and Great Britain, not quite sure if Gurnsey etc are included.

I read and disputed those reasons. You made a claim geographically, i disputed it on those grounds.

Read my posts again.

*edit* You were already told by another poster that calling an Irish person British can be percieved as an insult. Yet you are insisting on doing so. That is why i am saying troll.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

I disputed those reasons.

Read my posts again.

Good for you, I disputed yours.

Go back, read the all the posts between myself and Bobknowsall. I'm stating that it can be correct to refer to an Irish accent as a British accent because Eire is part of the British Isles, a name that is still in common usage. There really isn't any getting around that, if you (perfectly correctly for where you live) call them the British Isles then it's an accent originating from the British Isles, a British accent. The rest was just me trying to assure him that British Isles is just an old name for the whole island group, a name that was around before England existed, it doesn't mean "this belongs to the British/English empire" and it is still in widespread use today.

*edit* You were already told by another poster that calling an Irish person British can be percieved as an insult. Yet you are insisting on doing so. That is why i am saying troll.

Hopefully the previous paragraph will have explained this, but I'll go through it again. I am not calling anyone "British" in the sense of Empire/this belongs to England or Great Britain. It is the "British Isles" the name for the whole Island group, devoid of any political or cultural link to England, Scotland, Eire etc. You seem to be unable to dissassociate the word "British" and its cultural, political and social connotations from the word "British" used as a name for a bunch of rocks poking out of the North Sea.

 

[chiefohara]

I disputed those reasons.

Read my posts again.

Good for you, I disputed yours.

Go back, read the all the posts between myself and Bobknowsall. I'm stating that it can be correct to refer to an Irish accent as a British accent because as Eire is part of the British Isles, a name that is still in common usage. There really isn't any getting around that, if you (perfectly correctly for where you live) call them the British Isles then it's an accent originating from the british Isles, a British accent. The rest was just me trying to assure him that British Isles is just an old name for the whole island group, a name that was around before England existed, it doesn't mean "this belongs to the British/English empire" and it is still in widespread use today.

You left the last part of my quote out, where i point out that its an insult, that you've been told its an insult and yet you still persist in using it. Why?

I already told you, The 'British Isles' is an out of date and innacurate term because it infers only British people live there, which we both know isn't the case. Being pedantic about something thats wrong doesn't make it any less wrong.

 

[Ashcrexl]

i like british because it is easier to say british with a british accent than it is to say english with an english accent.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

You left the last part of my quote out, where i point out that its an insult, that you've been told its an insult and yet you still persist in using it. Why?

I already told you, The 'British Isles' is an out of date and innacurate term because it infers only British people live there, which we both know isn't the case. Being pedantic about something thats wrong doesn't make it any less wrong.

I got in there before you edited, if you want to take it as an insult go ahead, but it's not meant as such.

You really aren't getting this are you? It may be out of date to you but it's a name in common usage elsewhere. Maybe in 50 years time "British Isles" will no longer be used, but until then just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong. Also, I don't recall naming conventions requiring an accurate description of the local demographic.

Shit...it's very late, don't expect any more replies from me this "evening".

 

[chiefohara]

You left the last part of my quote out, where i point out that its an insult, that you've been told its an insult and yet you still persist in using it. Why?

I already told you, The 'British Isles' is an out of date and innacurate term because it infers only British people live there, which we both know isn't the case. Being pedantic about something thats wrong doesn't make it any less wrong.

I got in there before you edited, if you want to take it as an insult go ahead, but it's not meant as such.

You really aren't getting this are you? It may be out of date to you but it's a name in common usage elsewhere. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong. Also, I don't recall naming conventions requiring an accurate description of the local demographic.

Shit...it's very late, don't expect any more replies from me this "evening".

You were told by the other poster it was an insult before the edit. Also my edit came in about 30 seconds after i made the initial post so im kind of dubious about how honest you are being in that answer... however my question still stands, you know its an insult so why are you being so adamant in repeating it?

it's a name in common usage elsewhere.Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong.

You are the one who is not getting it. Factually it "IS" wrong, Common usage doesn't make it right or accurate, the sooner you realise that, the sooner this argument is over.

Shit...it's very late, don't expect any more replies from me this "evening".

Something we agree on.

 

[Lukeje]

Britian consists of Northern Ireland, ...

No. Northern Ireland is part of ``Great Britain and Northern Ireland''.

Nope. If I said "Great Britain" consists of that, you'd have a point. But I said "Britain". Britain is a very commonly used synonym for the UK.

From wiki:

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland[note 7] (commonly known as the United Kingdom, the UK, or Britain)

It's common speech. Don't nitpick

Better I nitpick than an irate Irishman.

 

[Abengoshis]

English because British encompasses Wales, Scotland and part of Ireland as well as England, which all include their own variations of accents. Saying just one of those countries reduces the amounts of accents you are talking about, just saying British could mean any of those countries.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

You were told by the other poster it was an insult before the edit. Also my edit came in about 30 seconds after i made the initial post so im kind of dubious about how honest you are being in that answer... however my question still stands, you know its an insult so why are you being so adamant in repeating it?

Ooh, accusations of dishonesty, again, classy. [EDIT: actually, having looked at my PM's it's probably because I replied to the PM which didn't include the edit rather than coming directly to the page] Secondly, because I don't consider it such and don't care if you do and it's difficult to argue about something without mentioning it.

You are the one who is not getting it. Factually it "IS" wrong, Common usage doesn't make it right or accurate, the sooner you realise that, the sooner this argument is over.

No you!

It would be wrong if I was referring to Eire and the UK as political entities but I'm not. The sooner you realise this the sooner this argument will be over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles

You may want it changed because you don't like the name and political parlance might use other names for expediency, but we still call them the British Isles.