Being equally oppressed doesn't really help anyone(except the guy in charge), so yeah freedom is the first step.
Poll: Equality vs Freedom
- Thread starter The Scythian
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Uh...jerk move here, but both, so long as they're in limited quantities. Absolute freedom is an awful, terrible idea because fundamentally, society is a douchebag and enough individuals are that it just wouldn't work. Equality is a nice idea, but impossible to achieve and forcing it on people by depriving them of freedom is going to create an oppressive micromanaging state. Freedom without equality is impossible, because the strong will take advantage of the weak to the fullest of their power in many cases. Equality without freedom is pointless because once you're equal, what do you do if you have no freedom?
Freedom is necessary to ensure a happy populace and to ensure a functioning state and society. Equality is necessary to ensure that the state and society function smoothly and that the people are happy. One without the other leads to severe unrest--either inequalities become so great that the poor demand reform/change and may start a revolution, or everyone is equal but no one has many freedoms, so everyone revolts to get some basic liberties. You need enough freedom that people have choices and can fairly make them on their own when it comes to things of importance, and you need enough equality so that the gaps between the top and the bottom sectors are minimal, no one group is severely disadvantaged by design, and that everyone is treated fairly.
Freedom is necessary to ensure a happy populace and to ensure a functioning state and society. Equality is necessary to ensure that the state and society function smoothly and that the people are happy. One without the other leads to severe unrest--either inequalities become so great that the poor demand reform/change and may start a revolution, or everyone is equal but no one has many freedoms, so everyone revolts to get some basic liberties. You need enough freedom that people have choices and can fairly make them on their own when it comes to things of importance, and you need enough equality so that the gaps between the top and the bottom sectors are minimal, no one group is severely disadvantaged by design, and that everyone is treated fairly.
I refuse to one choose and not the other, i want both. I shall remain willfuly ignorant of any logical paradox in my decision.
But equality without freedom is tyrany for all.smv1172 said:
OT: If I had to choose, I take freedom. I'm sorry, but people cannot made to be "equal" in the true sense of the word ever really.
You're not though.InfiniteSingularity said:
You are following, to the letter, a socialist, "for the greater good" philosophy, where everyone contributes to the whole and is therefore much happier than they would be otherwise.
You're arguments and stances are directly counter to all of the Individualist philosophies.
You are quite literally arguing that the individual should submit themselves to the society in order to benefit the other individuals in that society.
It's so hard to answer this... I said equality, because I'm a raging socialist. But I chose it because I've been disappointed with what people have done with freedom, both in my country and everywhere else. Not that places where there isn't freedom are better off, but equality I feel would be better. Life has treated me differently, what can I say?
well, let's see what the alcohol is telling this ol' philosopher to say....
...ok, freedom because without freedom we're slaves to a higher power. if we strive too much for equality, we develop communism, and communsim is an asshole and a joke. if anyone reading this is offended by that statement, ha ha, you're a communist. i'm not saying equality is bad, it's great, but as long as we're banded together to work for freedom, we feel like the man next to us is our brother, and equality is already achieved.
"all wars are civil wars because all men are brothers" -Francois Fenelon
...ok, freedom because without freedom we're slaves to a higher power. if we strive too much for equality, we develop communism, and communsim is an asshole and a joke. if anyone reading this is offended by that statement, ha ha, you're a communist. i'm not saying equality is bad, it's great, but as long as we're banded together to work for freedom, we feel like the man next to us is our brother, and equality is already achieved.
"all wars are civil wars because all men are brothers" -Francois Fenelon
I don't understand why the two need to be mutually exclusive. Equality can be about the idealistic vision that all people have the same rights and opportunities, a true meritocracy. I don't see how this must infringe upon freedom.
1. affirmative action doesn't work the way you think it works. there is no forced quota/ratio for hiring minorities. Enforcing such a rule would make organization management a nightmare.
2. racism is alive and well. There might not be an overarching agenda to oppress minority groups, but if you think people are free of biases and that prejudices no longer has any effect on how our society operates and functions, then you're clearly blind as bat.
several things.emeraldrafael said:
1. affirmative action doesn't work the way you think it works. there is no forced quota/ratio for hiring minorities. Enforcing such a rule would make organization management a nightmare.
2. racism is alive and well. There might not be an overarching agenda to oppress minority groups, but if you think people are free of biases and that prejudices no longer has any effect on how our society operates and functions, then you're clearly blind as bat.
You need to read the replies, there's definitely mutual exclusiveness.xXxJessicaxXx said:
You can have freedom and egality, but must accept that the freedom is not absolute freedom but freedom defined within a minimalist state, designed to protect the restriction from others.
Cmon, it's a discussion thread so if you want in, gotta clue up on the discussion being held.
Except there doesn't have to be mutual exclusivness.Baneat said:
It's all about how people act if they are free. If you think that being selfish is the default of human nature then we should all be ashamed that our species hasn't been able to rise above it's primal urges.
If you lack freedom but have equality, doesn't it mean that it doesn't which sex/race gets punished?
And if you lack equality but have freedom, isn't it (to an extent) our modern society?
Notice how my reply is in questions so if I'm wrong I can become enlightened upon such a heavily debated topic
And if you lack equality but have freedom, isn't it (to an extent) our modern society?
Notice how my reply is in questions so if I'm wrong I can become enlightened upon such a heavily debated topic
I would say freedom. Because with equality comes the chance of things being taken away from me just because someone else doesn't have it or didn't want to work for it. But with freedom comes the freedom to ***** about equality and why we should have it then allow you to strive for it. Sure equality is great to argue for aslong as you aren't the one giving anything up or sacrificing anything but instead are the one getting all the things to make you equal to others...why do I feel like Glenn Beck should be here arguing about left wing, marxist, commie dems wanting to force the world into a one salary world where everyone lives around the poverty line :/
EDIT: All in all why can't we have both? Everyone start out with Freedom and then those that want equality have the freedom to go where they want together and start their own community or country where everyone is equal?
EDIT: All in all why can't we have both? Everyone start out with Freedom and then those that want equality have the freedom to go where they want together and start their own community or country where everyone is equal?
Appealing to consequence -xXxJessicaxXx said:
Have you seen anarchic societies? What happens, the strongest man takes a leader role, it is a genetic thing we do to survive. powerful men, when enabled, abuse their power, (Lord of the Flies, Lord of the Rings, central theme to The Ring actually) - We didn't all end up with tribes and leaders for no reason. One must accept that there has to be a leader structure, it's how we've survived and why we're here. And, with a leader structure, absolute freedom is eliminated.
Proof of people making tribes by nature - We do it simultaneously with no culture communication. Clans, tribes, elected leaders, we always, always do it, and it's not learned from the same source. If they were, then we'd see a lot of societies doing it differently across the world, but they always need a leader.
Then it's not true freedom is it.
People always make a cage for themselves. Human beings need to start thinking differently if we ever want a truly free and equal society. We can make our own minds up we don't have to be fixed by our instincts. That's what being sentient means.
It's like we invented time and now we stare at a clock until we can leave work.
When you look at it from the outside it just seems completely crazy.
People always make a cage for themselves. Human beings need to start thinking differently if we ever want a truly free and equal society. We can make our own minds up we don't have to be fixed by our instincts. That's what being sentient means.
It's like we invented time and now we stare at a clock until we can leave work.
When you look at it from the outside it just seems completely crazy.
Nope, it's not, thus, back to the point I made, they are mutually exclusive. To think we will all transcend a working societal model for no good purpose, lovely thought, pipe dream. I might as well wish that people would stop committing crimes so we didn't need a police force.xXxJessicaxXx said:
Your point was that if your are free then you just revert back to a tribal model.Baneat said:
That's not true freedom.
As long as we dismiss any chance to develop ourselves as pipe dreams then we won't get anywhere. We don't have to live the way we do. Nobody is making our minds up for us but us. As a society we can change things. Alot has happened in history to prove that. I bet once people thought democracy was a pipe dream.