Poll: Evolution and the other side

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monfang

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Knight Templar said:
monfang said:
Then Knight, I guess that the scientist who researched the Griffon was completely wrong.

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/6811.html

If you get the book, it's page 16,page 26 page 29 page 30-32 38 page xiii page 40 page 3 page 51 page 50 page 45 page 55 pages 55-57 page 58 page 58 pages 130-139 pages 72-129 page 115 page 80 page 165 page 168
That author is suggesting Griffons came from people seeing the bones and thinking what it was when alive.
Which while certainly an intresting theory, it isn't one that supports your idea that they were alive at the time.

I also already gave the source for the age thing a few posts back.
Which just points out that Potassium?argon dating isn't very reliable if the material is young, which is already known, it's why you can't use just one method of dating.
Other parts support it, KT. Like "This animal was no simple composite; it didn?t seem to belong with the obviously imaginary hybrids of Greek tradition like Pegasus (a horse with wings), the Sphinx (a winged lion with a woman?s head), the Minotaur (a man with a bull?s head), and the half-man, half-horse Centaurs. Indeed, the griffin played no role in Greek mythology. It was a creature of folklore grounded in naturalistic details.
Unlike the other monsters who dwelled in the mythical past, the griffin was not the offspring of gods and was not associated with the adventures of Greek gods or heroes. Instead, griffins were generic animals believed to exist in the preset day; they were encountered by ordinary people who prospected for gold in distant lands." Page 16

"The griffin was much more than a static decorative motif; it was imagined and depicted as a real animal with recognizable behavioral traits. ? I sought out that unique bronze metope, a decorated plaque created for the Temple of Zeus in about 630 B.C. The artist had portrayed a fierce mother griffin with a baby griffin nestled under her ribs (fig 1.5). Sarah Morris, now a professor of classical archaeology at UCLA, showed me another griffin family scene on a Mycenaean vase of about 1150 B.C., painted well before the first known written accounts of the griffin. In that vignette, a griffin pair tends two nestlings. What inspired such naturalistic images of griffin life? The imagery of griffins did not follow any standard mythological narratives-instead, the artists seemed to be imagining the behavior of an unusual animal they had heard described but had never seen. " Page 26

What would make the Greeks think up the Griffins as motherly? To come up with such far fetched details that even now our Scientists have to make HUGE leaps of faith to come up with instead of treating them as the same as mythical creatures.
 

DracoSuave

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monfang said:
tl;dr Anti-religion dribble.

Have I done research on Creationism and Evolution. Yes.

I put my bets with Creationism. On the surface, Evolution is nice until you start to see how it contradicts itself. None of the age testing is accurate past 5000 years.
Science can prove things that you can see with the naked eye (re: look up at stars) are more than 5000 years old. In fact, it can prove there are objects out there older than any arbitrary date you set for the creation for the universe, save those put forth by science which involve numbers in the billions.

They pick and choose who is 'qualified' and they are mostly people who won't argue against the status quo.
By requiring schooling and a grounding in the principles of the scientific method. You have to understand the process of science before you can be called a scientist. This is no different than religious organizations requiring theological study before one can call oneself a theologian.

They hide facts like finding dinosaur bones among human bones, human footprints among dinosaurs, the 'missing links' they find are always human skulls on ape bodies.
You're going to have to be very specific here. It sounds like a bunch of made-up shit. Which paleantological studies have found these things, and what was done to determine these things were of the same age as the other artifacts at each site?

They don't answer how the Greeks, Native Americans, Chinese and Hebrew people have Dinosaurs in their historical writings.
Really? Dinosaurs? Be specific.

Their lame attempt at putting animals on a tree to prove evolution is so full of contradictions that I could make a website about it.
Name one.

Or I can link someone else who did already: http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/~do_while/sage/
Good news. You've found yet another website filled with essays that can all be summarized as this: 'How dare scientists study things that we're told are true! We know them to be false, so despite the evidence to the contrary, we must still assume they are wrong! How dare they advance human knowledge! Clearly, because they don't have all the answers, we must be right!'

In other words... bullshit.

But as you support creationism, scientificly.

Can you please present to this community the experiments performed that support creationism or intellegent design?

Can you take one of those 'contradictions' in evolution, and can you design an experiment that further proves your hypothesis? I mean, if these 'contradictions' are so obvious, SURELY some scientist must have tested it. After all, evolutionists have been trying to disprove evolution for years. Clearly someone who actually disbelieves evolution can do no less?

Show your work, or remove yourself from scientific discssuions.
 

Knight Templar

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monfang said:
What would make the Greeks think up the Griffins as motherly? To come up with such far fetched details that even now our Scientists have to make HUGE leaps of faith to come up with instead of treating them as the same as mythical creatures.
Again, that source is saying they looked at fossils and came up with griffons.
Not living creatures. So waxing on the possible origins of particular traits attributed to bones is not helping your point.

And I see you ignored the dating part.
 

monfang

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Knight Templar said:
monfang said:
What would make the Greeks think up the Griffins as motherly? To come up with such far fetched details that even now our Scientists have to make HUGE leaps of faith to come up with instead of treating them as the same as mythical creatures.
Again, that source is saying they looked at fossils and came up with griffons.
Not living creatures. So waxing on the possible origins of particular traits attributed to bones is not helping your point.

And I see you ignored the dating part.
Do you have the page numbers by any chance?
 

monfang

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Draco, I don't believe that the Scientific Method can prove Creationism, ID, or Evolution.

Instead, I go by the Forensic Method.

You can not perform experiments to make creatures evolve into new species without there being some element of control over them. (Controlling the creatures to evolve only proves ID, not prove Evolution.) Nor can you prove that God exists though the Scientific Method. However, if we look at the evidence before us, I believe that we can find the truth.

Forensic science is based on observation. They know the cause and observe the effect. This makes it possible for them to reason from effect back to the cause with a high degree of certainty.

A forensic scientist would never be so foolish as to say, ?I?ve never seen a wound like this before. Therefore, it must have come from a Martian Death Ray, which proves there must be life on Mars.? The conclusions of forensic scientists are always based on observations of effects with known causes.

Evolutionists routinely find fragmentary fossils (a piece of skull, or a single tooth) unlike any fossils that have ever been seen before. Based on this single type-specimen, they define a new species, and confidently say what creature it descended from, and what creature it evolved into. That?s not forensic science. It?s not science at all. It is speculation based on the assumption of evolution.

The fallacy in their argument is that they believe they can reason from an effect they have never seen before back to a presumed cause that has never been observed.
 

evilneko

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monfang said:
Evolutionists routinely find fragmentary fossils (a piece of skull, or a single tooth) unlike any fossils that have ever been seen before. Based on this single type-specimen, they define a new species, and confidently say what creature it descended from, and what creature it evolved into. That?s not forensic science. It?s not science at all. It is speculation based on the assumption of evolution.
If this happens so often as you seem to imply then you should be able to provide an example or two or three.
 

DracoSuave

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Wouldn't previous existance of, and subsequant extinction of, certain mythological creatures such as griffons be supporting evidence FOR evolution?


Also, griffons, pegasii, any sort of large winged mammal hybrid thing can't exist. There's this thing called the cube law regarding the mass of things, stating that as you double the dimensions of something, you must multiply its mass by 8 times. This would necessitate increasing the wingspan of such a creature by 8 times in order to get the same lift.

I mean, there's a REALLY simple explanation for how such things came to be in folklore.

People's got imaginations. They dream up such trippy shit.
 

monfang

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evilneko said:
monfang said:
Evolutionists routinely find fragmentary fossils (a piece of skull, or a single tooth) unlike any fossils that have ever been seen before. Based on this single type-specimen, they define a new species, and confidently say what creature it descended from, and what creature it evolved into. That?s not forensic science. It?s not science at all. It is speculation based on the assumption of evolution.
If this happens so often as you seem to imply then you should be able to provide an example or two or three.
Lucy (started with skull fragments I believe) , Eosimias (The proof comes from two grain sized pieces of bone.), Millennium Man (A tooth started it now they have 13 bones from diffrent individuals, not even full bones), Ardipithecus (Same as before, but mostly teeth.)
 

DracoSuave

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monfang said:
Draco, I don't believe that the Scientific Method can prove Creationism, ID, or Evolution.

Instead, I go by the Forensic Method.

You can not perform experiments to make creatures evolve into new species without there being some element of control over them. (Controlling the creatures to evolve only proves ID, not prove Evolution.) Nor can you prove that God exists though the Scientific Method. However, if we look at the evidence before us, I believe that we can find the truth.
There's a fallacy to this thinking:

Forensic science is based on observation. They know the cause and observe the effect. This makes it possible for them to reason from effect back to the cause with a high degree of certainty.
We know the cause, therefore we can look at the effect and determine the cause.

The problem with applying this 'forensic method' is that you do NOT know the cause. That's kinda the point isn't it?

Not to mention it's logically fallacious. A -> B does not mean B -> A. Logical implication is not bi-directional.

A forensic scientist would never be so foolish as to say, ?I?ve never seen a wound like this before. Therefore, it must have come from a Martian Death Ray, which proves there must be life on Mars.? The conclusions of forensic scientists are always based on observations of effects with known causes.

Evolutionists routinely find fragmentary fossils (a piece of skull, or a single tooth) unlike any fossils that have ever been seen before. Based on this single type-specimen, they define a new species, and confidently say what creature it descended from, and what creature it evolved into. That?s not forensic science. It?s not science at all. It is speculation based on the assumption of evolution.

The fallacy in their argument is that they believe they can reason from an effect they have never seen before back to a presumed cause that has never been observed.
The counter argument to this actually exists. There have been dinosaur species, thought to exist, where strange remains were found with them. Further strange findings caused a later conclusion that the original species did not exist, but, in fact, were because of two different species being found at the same location, with the strange fossil findings being the parts missing of those two species.

Science doesn't, as you insist, go 'Hey look, this is odd, it must be a martian death ray!' What it DOES do is go 'Hey, this is odd. We should examine this further.' Then it makes hypotheses.

The only time science says something for certain, is when it has been tested with rigor, when evidence has piled up. So, it's not going to say 'It's a martian death ray' until they've discovered enough of them, on mars, at the scene of a war, with dead martians from wounds that look like they were caused by the death ray.
 

metal mustache

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hooooooooooooly crap I could not listen to just him for even one minute haha.
skipped to the Q and A, on a side, loved how that proffessor repeaditly asked him to stop avoiding the questions. So, is there any chance you know of any actual creationism science? his whole speech appeared to be an attempt to discredit evolution anyway. All i can recall from my time in catholic school is 'On the nth day(5?), god created the animals'.
 

monfang

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DracoSuave said:
We know the cause, therefore we can look at the effect and determine the cause.

The problem with applying this 'forensic method' is that you do NOT know the cause. That's kinda the point isn't it?

Not to mention it's logically fallacious. A -> B does not mean B -> A. Logical implication is not bi-directional.

A forensic scientist would never be so foolish as to say, ?I?ve never seen a wound like this before. Therefore, it must have come from a Martian Death Ray, which proves there must be life on Mars.? The conclusions of forensic scientists are always based on observations of effects with known causes.

Evolutionists routinely find fragmentary fossils (a piece of skull, or a single tooth) unlike any fossils that have ever been seen before. Based on this single type-specimen, they define a new species, and confidently say what creature it descended from, and what creature it evolved into. That?s not forensic science. It?s not science at all. It is speculation based on the assumption of evolution.

The fallacy in their argument is that they believe they can reason from an effect they have never seen before back to a presumed cause that has never been observed.
The counter argument to this actually exists. There have been dinosaur species, thought to exist, where strange remains were found with them. Further strange findings caused a later conclusion that the original species did not exist, but, in fact, were because of two different species being found at the same location, with the strange fossil findings being the parts missing of those two species.

Science doesn't, as you insist, go 'Hey look, this is odd, it must be a martian death ray!' What it DOES do is go 'Hey, this is odd. We should examine this further.' Then it makes hypotheses.

The only time science says something for certain, is when it has been tested with rigor, when evidence has piled up. So, it's not going to say 'It's a martian death ray' until they've discovered enough of them, on mars, at the scene of a war, with dead martians from wounds that look like they were caused by the death ray.
I wonder how one would test if a pile of bones were a living creature millions of years ago... Especially when you only have say.. Teeth or a claw.

Beyond that, I can't comprehend the point you are trying to make.

"The counter argument to this actually exists. There have been dinosaur species, thought to exist, where strange remains were found with them."

Are you trying to say that because there are strange remains that don't match living animals, they must have come from extinct dinosaurs?

"Further strange findings caused a later conclusion that the original species did not exist, but, in fact, were because of two different species being found at the same location, with the strange fossil findings being the parts missing of those two species."

I'm sorry, but what?
 

Ritter315

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I dislike the rather smug way atheist dismiss any Creation Science or even Intelligent Design arguements because its "Not really science" or has been "disproved before many times" because that could literally be said about anything (within reason obviously) Unless you can articulate the arguement, dont assume that you're correct. Also, the studies about atheists being more intelligent than believers is actually pretty skewed. Its not a matter of intellect or upbringing, its simply education. More highly educated people tend to be more atheistic. Does that mean atheists are SMARTER than believers? No, its just because most atheists arent lower class and believers (being a larger majority by A LOT) are obviously going to be less educated because there is MORE of them. Its a simple mathimatical miscalcuation.
 

DracoSuave

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monfang said:
DracoSuave said:
We know the cause, therefore we can look at the effect and determine the cause.

The problem with applying this 'forensic method' is that you do NOT know the cause. That's kinda the point isn't it?

Not to mention it's logically fallacious. A -> B does not mean B -> A. Logical implication is not bi-directional.

A forensic scientist would never be so foolish as to say, ?I?ve never seen a wound like this before. Therefore, it must have come from a Martian Death Ray, which proves there must be life on Mars.? The conclusions of forensic scientists are always based on observations of effects with known causes.

Evolutionists routinely find fragmentary fossils (a piece of skull, or a single tooth) unlike any fossils that have ever been seen before. Based on this single type-specimen, they define a new species, and confidently say what creature it descended from, and what creature it evolved into. That?s not forensic science. It?s not science at all. It is speculation based on the assumption of evolution.

The fallacy in their argument is that they believe they can reason from an effect they have never seen before back to a presumed cause that has never been observed.
The counter argument to this actually exists. There have been dinosaur species, thought to exist, where strange remains were found with them. Further strange findings caused a later conclusion that the original species did not exist, but, in fact, were because of two different species being found at the same location, with the strange fossil findings being the parts missing of those two species.

Science doesn't, as you insist, go 'Hey look, this is odd, it must be a martian death ray!' What it DOES do is go 'Hey, this is odd. We should examine this further.' Then it makes hypotheses.

The only time science says something for certain, is when it has been tested with rigor, when evidence has piled up. So, it's not going to say 'It's a martian death ray' until they've discovered enough of them, on mars, at the scene of a war, with dead martians from wounds that look like they were caused by the death ray.
I wonder how one would test if a pile of bones were a living creature millions of years ago... Especially when you only have say.. Teeth or a claw.
If you are curious, you could probably study basic paleantology then. They have many means and ways of doing this. Some of them involve using the rock structure they are found in to determine the age.

Beyond that, I can't comprehend the point you are trying to make.
That your 'forensic method' involves circular logic, not science.

[quote["The counter argument to this actually exists. There have been dinosaur species, thought to exist, where strange remains were found with them."

Are you trying to say that because there are strange remains that don't match living animals, they must have come from extinct dinosaurs?[/quote]

Eh... what? That's not even close to what I said.

There have been times where paleantology has determined the existance of a species, but later, once evidence came forth (i.e. finding 'strange remains) that they were wrong, and they revised their thinking that it was two different species.

In other words, paleantology is perfectly willing and able to change the commonly accepted view based on provided evidence.

"Further strange findings caused a later conclusion that the original species did not exist, but, in fact, were because of two different species being found at the same location, with the strange fossil findings being the parts missing of those two species."

I'm sorry, but what?
I'll dumb it down for you.

Science will change its mind about stuff when you present wierd things that don't fit the theory. It's how science works.
 

DracoSuave

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Ritter315 said:
I dislike the rather smug way atheist dismiss any Creation Science or even Intelligent Design arguements because its "Not really science" or has been "disproved before many times" because that could literally be said about anything (within reason obviously)
The reason that evolutionists (which has nothing to do with atheism) don't accept creationism as science is because it's not scientificly valid do to the complete lack of experimentation. They don't claim it's wrong, because science doesn't work that way. They don't claim creationism has been disproven.

They claim that creationism is inherently untestable, and as such, is not of scientific value. Science is a process, and creationism does not fit within that process. So it is right for science to say 'This is not science' because of the lack of that process. It's not being smug, it's a statement of fact.

Ordinarliy there is no problem, however this debate does come up way too often in the realm of education. Creationists would have their philosophy taught as science. But, as previously established, it is not a science, so doing so would be a lie. Ergo, creationists wish to teach studants a lie, and that cannot be tolerated in any free society.

If they want to teach it, teach it as philosophy. Leave it out of science class.

Unless you can articulate the arguement, dont assume that you're correct. Also, the studies about atheists being more intelligent than believers is actually pretty skewed. Its not a matter of intellect or upbringing, its simply education. More highly educated people tend to be more atheistic. Does that mean atheists are SMARTER than believers? No, its just because most atheists arent lower class and believers (being a larger majority by A LOT) are obviously going to be less educated because there is MORE of them. Its a simple mathimatical miscalcuation.
I'm not touching this debate, as it's irrelevant to the actual topic of creationism's nonexistant body of work. However, it is very telling that education.. i.e. actual learning... tends towards atheism.

The conflict however, is in science vs. dogma. Science is the seeking of answers, and dogma is assuming answers already exist. If you are claiming that assuming answers exist is bad, and one should be openminded, then one must reject dogma. Science is the opposite of assumption.

To be a scientist you must accept there IS the unknown. You must be able to accept that what you know could be wrong. You must accept that the answers you have today might not be as good as the answers you have tomorrow.

Anyone who claims sciences says it has the answers is misleading. Science doesn't have all the answers... it chases the answers. It seeks them out. It wants to know, and test, and learn. Science is the process of learning. Dogma is the process of ignorance.

The choice is easy to make.