(I hope the OP sees this conversation, as it demonstrates my original point quite well. Accusations of being a poser know no bounds when it comes to gender.)
Also, I feel this meme is apropos to the discussion, if someone hasn't already mentioned it. It shows both a boy and a girl. You're not wrong when you suggest that misogyny plays a part, but I just think it came in after the fact, rather than being endemic to the problem.
I had to go back to find this after seeing you quoted on the last page.
You realise we get every single one of those sitcoms over here, right? We have whole channels dedicated to American sitcoms and they're just as, if not more, popular than our home grown ones.
Besides, Frasier is the best sitcom ever and everyone should watch and love it. It's also less about radio personalities and more about the pompous upper-middle/upper classes and their clashes with the real world. If anyone was going to find it offensive, it would be the Mancunians - Daphne's accent is so far from Manchester it's in the Indian Ocean.
I would have thought that, but when the person in question's only comedic reference point is Spaced, I thought that maybe such shows were virtually unknown outside the US. (insert nasally nerd elitist laugh as I adjust my glasses) That was kind of my point, though. People aren't crying foul of Frasier's "stereotypes" and "pandering" to the wine community / psychoanalysis / opera / effete brothers. It's all secondary to the relationships of the characters. I just think nerds are really really sensitive sometimes.
It's such a waste of breath to defend any media against criticism, especially a TV show. If you don't like it, don't watch. Don't even discuss it. It's the only way it goes away.
Yeah, see, I don't like that picture.
It kind of suggest that true nerds are 1) ugly and 2) not going to call themselves nerds.
Neither of these thingshas been proven true in my experience.
Most people who are nerds and call themselves as such do so because everyone else called them nerds so they just started calling themselves nerds.
This is a personal opinion which applies to other communities also, not just the geek one. If people are being hostile and accuse someone of being fake then WHY on earth would you want to be a part of such a community in the first place?
I don't know if things changed lately but you didn't really choose to be part of geekdom. You sort of just found yourself there at some point. You would be labeled by other people and just accept it, you wouldn't say to yourself "You know what I want to be? A geek. Let's see, I need to start watching show X now, probably start doing Y, and take interest in Z". It's the opposite way around - you do geeky things, you become a geek.
So there isn't much choice in the matter.
With that said, I don't really consider myself part of geekdom, per se. I acknowledge I have geeky interests and hobbies and if somebody called me such, I'd agree with them, but I wouldn't walk up to somebody and tell them "Hi, I'm a geek". Or appropriate equivalent, anyway.
I think the ultimate question here is: What is a nerd like in reality? People associate different attributes to the word but there has to be some cohesive framework into which people fit if they have enough of mentioned attributes. I have negative experiences from people assuming the worst of another person without knowing them. It borders this issue so I'll write about it.
I'm an obese man with thick beard and very long hair. Now, those are just physical attributes but somehow people have constantly put me into some category by widly assuming things. The "favourites" are a drunk/drug abuser, nerd and biker. In some cases people get me right as I represent a person who's into rock and metal music but who doesn't dress by such codes. It's ridiculous and enfuriating sometimes that people don't even try to see the bigger picture because they themselves are vain. I'm none of those types that people think I am. Therefore I can say that I relate to the pain of people who get similar problems.
I don't think that the word nerd undeniably means that someone is a loser, on the contrary. Nerds know about some topics and are very passionate about them. Being a no-lifer is a different thing which may sometimes be the outcome of dedicating one's life to f.e. computers too much.
There would be a lot to write about this topic but I'll let others who are more into the subject, do that. After all english isn't my 1st language so I have to think a lot when trying to make sentences that have the meaning I'm trying to show here. All in all, I'd say if asked for a personal evaluation about myself, that I'm a bit or more nerdish because I spend very much time in front of the computer but the main things have always been music and gaming Maybe this makes me a nerd in the eyes of some people, I won't deny it but by sticking to correct labels things go a lot better for us and others.
From my experience, (as a 20 year old, identified boyperson, which I think is all the necessary context), different sub-cultures of the gaming sub-culture have varying resistances to your (my) integration socially, before they will accept we share a common appreciation. Tests, when they happen, appear in being doubted in your knowledge of a subject the group deem important, to ability in a game or genre. I don't mind a little, light-hearted grilling, but when it's clear the group is exclusionary and derisive of others for not placing paramount importance in the things they do, the appeal to be a part of that group wanes. The setting the group exists in seems important too; if the group or community exist online, I find it's more common to be unable to overcome this threshold to acceptance, often due to an immediate hostility to newcomers, doubt of the authenticity of their ability or knowledge, assertions they're effectively "posers", and a permeating radiation of unpleasantness at worst. Anonymity brings out the worst in people. I am part of a gaming society at my university which has, in the time I've been associated with it, no feelings of ostracism or serious resistance to acceptance. The current members call a wide variety of places home, believe many different things, are a mix of genders and sexualities, and are universally excited to invite you to game and join in what's going on. It's by far the best experience I've had as part of any gaming community. Sorry Escapist.
So yes, I've felt excluded from groups and communities in the gaming world, but at the same time I've never felt more accepted in any sub-culture, I just had to find the right people, and not want to be a part of hostile and exclusionary communities. When it's entirely about trying to be superior to everyone else, the relationships are feeble and unhealthy. I haven't felt excluded based on my gender from a gaming group or community, though aspersions have been cast about my sexuality more times than I can count. I find girlfolk oriented gaming communities and gatherings to be very open to anyone interested coming along to share in the good times.
Honestly, I think anyone who has time to worry and complain about "posers" or "not real fans" obviously has nothing going on with their life, no matter the gender.
It does occasionally bug me when people are ignorant about things I like and they claim to like, (like when someone says they're a "classic rock fan" when they mean "Journey fan") but that's my problem, not theirs.
OT: I think the "poser" attacks come equally from both genders, not within geek culture specifically, but in other areas. I mean, as someone who's a closeted transgender, there's a lot of girly sorts of music, TV shows, hobbies ect I'm interested in, but I'll be dismissed by some fans as either being ironic or trying to get girls or something. Sure, I guess that makes a good cover for my situation, but I do think there's just as much hostility towards guys liking things in "girl territory" as vice versa.
Yes, yes, another F&*£@%?#^ thread about gender! Turn away now for the sake of your own sanity.
I read an article on The Mary Sue this morning which made me wonder...
http://www.themarysue.com/geek-girl-meme/#0
The main idea boils down to this: "...the persisting idea that tells people it's ok to nastily call women out for not being 'authentically geeky' enough. It's basically the idea that you can use that old middle school tactic of calling people 'posers' because they don't adhere to your own particular rules as to what qualifies a 'geek'..."
Is there a male equivalent of this phenomenon? Obviously I've only ever experienced the geek gatekeeper horror from the female side - Do guys ever get quizzed about their geek cred before they're accepted as a 'true' geek? Are there some geek circles which are as hostile to newbie males as they are to females?
I'm interested from a 'I want to know more about why this happens in geek culture' standpoint more than a 'AAAAAAAA MEN ARE OPPRESSING ME!' one, so if we can get through this conversation without it devolving into a whiny argument about which gender whines the most I think we'd all be very happy (Ah, impossible dreams...).
EDIT: 2nd option should read 'No, but only because men don't enter geek culture just to get attention like some women do'
First off, I've had people wonder about whether I'm really a geek, but that usually passes quickly, because I show them my steam games list(go ahead it's in my profile, take a look), or tell them that I ran a teamspeak server for somewhere around 8 years with a total accumulated downtime of 3 weeks 2 of those were due to unemployment and a lack of internet connectivity.
Now to tackle the gender-y bits, most geeky males have been subjected to a societal castration, due to being looked down on by the majority of other male peers for a long long time, this sends a constant message to their brains that no woman will ever want them, ever, and that women are different and hate gamers/geeks and all we stand for, which in a large number of cases is true *gasp* I wonder why!?
Now, this causes an inherent fear, deep in the subconscious of many male geeks when in the presense of women, the geek test thing is a way that they try to invalidate women as geeks to prove what their subconscious is telling them, and thus remove the danger that they might end up in a situation where a woman shows any interest in them, because they usually have very little or very negative experience with women to cause the fear effect in the first place.
Or in the more agressive male geeks it can be a way of asserting dominance in a social structure, as well as the previously mentionned problem.
I'm a geek, but I've learned that women are not to be feared, but it took time and effort to fix myself, and even now bits of that fear linger...
I would suggest that if it bothers you, find a way to let them maintain their little bubble while proving that you know something, it will allow you to wear down that wall, and reduce the fear, just get ready for practically all of them to take passes at you, as a geek male with lowered fear shields tends to be a lonely desperate man willing to cling to anyone who seems non-threatening.
PS. To all you fellow geeks, this is not a dis, I was there too, knowing your problems and learning to deal with them is important, first step is cleanliness, hygene is vital, also healthy, please for the sake of all of us male and female stay clean, and use deoderant, and possibly a bit of bodyspray or something, stay fresh.
PPS. Also brush those zombie biters, yellow rotting plaque infested teeth scare everyone, and the rotstink they generate will keep anyone away from your face.
Near as I can tell, the main reason there don't appear to be as many girl geeks is that while there are plenty of them out there, they'd rather not have to put up with the bullshit of "proving" themselves. If this is the case, it's terrible. Like, forty cakes terrible. I don't need to tell you how terrible that is. (Because someone else will I guarantee it.)
It's a shame, too. My XBox Live friends list is a total sausage fest.
(Also your first post reminded me of Monty Python and the Holy Grail, so that was nice.)
Thank god... I thought I would be the only one to admit that! I think it is pretty funny, and one of the few comedies I can enjoy at home with my mum, that doesn't graphically go into too much detail about sex...! :/
I also agree with your second point... I thought being called Geek/Nerd was something that happened when you wern't considered cool.... and then when you grow up, and you realise that people don't actually care anymore then you lose that 'title.'
Also, I was under the impression that being 'a nerd' was just knowing a large amount about a subject, to the point where you are beyone the average understanding, and could hold a conversation/point out misconceptions... which nearly everyone can in their adult life, due to career choices/interests! People who know a lot about sport are nerds on sport, people who sell Fridges and Freezers are nerds on that... I know a lot about aircraft, so I am a plane nerd... But why would I go round calling myself that!? :/
You mean being a 'geek' is a recent fad?
Ever since there was Myspace and fancy phones there have always been 'fad geeks'
Dougles Adams said that some human beings find Digital Watches neat. It seems a fair observation as now-a-days we have human beings who find Smart Phones neat.
I know plenty of people who suffer from 'Fake Geek', mostly from stuff such as liking Big Bang Theory or figuring out how to bring up the DOS prompt on the high school machines (note I said DOS prompt, which is different to the command prompt).
I'm a CS student and avid gamer who plays game both virtual and physical, and yet these people try and claim they're part of geek culture when they're the kind of people we hate claiming they're geeks.
With regards to the DOS prompt thing, you do realise that the filename of the operating system in MS-DOS was called command.com - hence the "command" prompt is the "DOS" prompt because it starts MS-DOS and a text shell interface. Here's the thing though: that's only true on machines with MS-DOS installed, which I doubt your high school PCs are unless they're pretty old, as MS-DOS only ran in parallel with Windows up to Windows XP. The command line shell you boot from disc or memory stick when repairing a broken installation, for example, is Windows with a text shell.
So, unless those PCs really are ancient, or you're talking about an emulator or vitual machine like DOSBOX, your distinction is meaningless at best and confusing at worst.
But congratulations - you've discovered one of the most important things about working in CS - as long as you're confident in your bullshit and don't get found out you can get away with anything. You'll also find that if you're a guy, you'll be "innocent until proven guilty" - you can get away with as much bullshit as you want unless and until you're found out.
What this thread is about is how, if you're not a guy, you're guilty until proven innocent. If you say you're into something geeky, you will be grilled about it until you can prove your credentials. People want you to fail.
And why hate it if someone claims they're a geek anyway? What harm does it do you? You'll soon find out that it's actually better that people don't know how good you are at computers (outside of your peers or when promoting your skills in a professional capacity of course) because you'll soon get sick of them asking you to fix their printer or set up their Wi-fi.
I'm 38 and I've reinstalled a lot of drivers over the years.
I think it is kinda sad how many people see being assholes to people they reckon are `fake` as revenge for any social stigma they may have suffered.
I guess it just proves, shit rolls downhill. As soon as some people get any percieved power over another they will just shit all over them and complain how they were shat on too.
Personally, I remember suffering bullying for being `nerdy` and thinking that I'd never do that to someone else.
Fake geeks hurt no one. If you're that keen to `get back at them` in some way, the problem is with you.
I think it's worth noting that every single person who decided I needed to prove my nerdiness was a complete prick.
Fake geeks hurt no one. If you're that keen to `get back at them` in some way, the problem is with you.
I think it's worth noting that every single person who decided I needed to prove my nerdiness was a complete prick.
I think this pretty much sums up the topic nicely.
The idea that 'posers' are the only ones in our society taking influence from fads and fashions without necessarily belonging to the 'culture' surrounding those fads is laughable. If someone asks you to 'prove' you belong to a certain group, it just shows they're so heavily invested in that group that they're nothing without it.
I think it is kinda sad how many people see being assholes to people they reckon are `fake` as revenge for any social stigma they may have suffered.
I guess it just proves, shit rolls downhill. As soon as some people get any percieved power over another they will just shit all over them and complain how they were shat on too.
Personally, I remember suffering bullying for being `nerdy` and thinking that I'd never do that to someone else.
Fake geeks hurt no one. If you're that keen to `get back at them` in some way, the problem is with you.
I think it's worth noting that every single person who decided I needed to prove my nerdiness was a complete prick.
This is my exact feeling, and I think it's so sad that we cling on to the negative stereotypes others have labelled us with and ostracise anyone who tries to change or doesn't fit (case in point: assuming 'pretty' people, or people who dress well, are fakes).
All it comes down to is the fact that none of us have the right to say that someone isn't what they say they are. If you start thinking you can, then you're becoming an unpleasant person.
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Maybe this makes me a nerd in the eyes of some people, I won't deny it but by sticking to correct labels things go a lot better for us and others.
