Poll: (Fallout: New Vegas) Do You Kill Too Many People?

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A Satanic Panda

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New Vegas is primarily a shooter, so the game is obviously built around shooting people, a lot of people. So many in fact that it would drive anyone in reality to insanity. Had the player (you, me, anyone) actually felt what it's like to take a real human life from killing an NPC, they would never ever kill any NPC ever again. The psychology of killing is completely opposed to what video game portrays it as.[footnote]The Psycology of Killing (Book referenced)[/footnote] I'm sure any members of the military can tell you, it's very unnerving to get a confirmed kill.

But the point of this topic, should video games that focus on human's destructive nature reward the player for fighting/killing, on punish them for it? Whether in an economic or in a psychological kind of way.

I think it would be a very refreshing concept to psychologically punish the player for killing, especially in a Fallout setting. (Do I do something that feels awful to get easy food, or keep walking?) and I think it would go a long way for NPCs to have a similar mechanic. That would ease the difficulty by having you not kill as much and maybe even build trust/expectations in future encounters; of being pleasantly surprised that the druggie raider still has a heart, or that it doesn't.

But in places like multiplayer, or when you're fighting non-humans, it doesn't fit.
 

Tanis

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It's a video game...so...yeah.

I've done a 'good' run (help everyone, side with the NCR) and a 'bad' run (kill any sissies that get in my way, size with The Legion').

Currently on a 'KILL ALL THE NPCS!'...and it makes the game a HELL of a lot harder.

There's only one shop owner left, that robot at the Gun Runners gate, and I need to level more till I can get the 'fast travel while encumbered' perk.
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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I kill people who attack me. If they attack me then wtf was I supposed to do give them a hug? Fallout doesn't exactly give you a tranq gun.

Yeah I'm not feeling very guilty at this point. Especially those asshats who sold a little girl to the fiends (I went and made a Shishkebab just for them)

denseWorm said:
I did a successful pacifist run and lost my foxiest of hounds because of saving Malik :< I can be good if the game lets me!
 

l0ckd0wn

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*sigh* I think I'm going to have to give NV some more time... I wasn't really impressed with it like I was FO3 after about 6 hours in. I guess I need to trudge a little further, see if I catch the addiction again.

BTW, is going the "hard" mode worth it? Just curious.

captcha: teflon president
 

PrimitiveJudge

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Last time I played NV a little over a year ago, I complete the game siding with the Robot in the Vegas bunker with a 600+ kill count, and I still feel like I did not quench my thirst. The key is the get the full auto grenade launcher guarded by the Legendary Deathclaw and a anti-material rifle. Endless fun.
 

JaceArveduin

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PrimitiveJudge said:
Last time I played NV a little over a year ago, I complete the game siding with the Robot in the Vegas bunker with a 600+ kill count, and I still feel like I did not quench my thirst. The key is the get the full auto grenade launcher guarded by the Legendary Deathclaw and a anti-material rifle. Endless fun.
Mercy, gotta love the 40mm grenade launcher of death.
 

The Madman

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Honestly despite being a pretty big fan of Obsidian in general and a sucker for the old Fallout games, I didn't particularly enjoy New Vegas and Fallout 3 I just straight up disliked. And part of the reason for that is because there's just no real sense of roleplay or characterization.

In Fallout 1 and 2 the combat was shit, it really was. But fortunately you didn't actually need to fight all that often and could largely play the game, as I have multiple times, as a smooth talkin wanderer with a fondness for drink and women or a weakness for the hard drugs when times get tough. And in response the game not only allowed you to do that but responded to it. Your stats and perks and reputation made a difference!

In Fallout 3 and, though they obviously tried to improve it somewhat in this regard, New Vegas there's just so little of that. My character never felt unique. I never felt like I was roleplaying a character. I'm just some slob in a post apocalyptic world that shoots a bunch of stuff...

And frankly if I want that STALKER does it better in every single way conceivable.

So yeah there should be consequences for killing. Players should have to reckon with the fact they outright murder potentially hundreds of people throughout a game. Maybe not in an fps but in what was once a heavily character driven rpg I kinda expect it!
 

Lazier Than Thou

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l0ckd0wn said:
*sigh* I think I'm going to have to give NV some more time... I wasn't really impressed with it like I was FO3 after about 6 hours in. I guess I need to trudge a little further, see if I catch the addiction again.

BTW, is going the "hard" mode worth it? Just curious.

captcha: teflon president
Hardcore mode is pretty lackluster, in my opinion. All it really does is four things:

1. Give ammo weight. This is an interesting addition, but really only serves to make the game more tedious. Instead of having as much ammo as you can carry, you basically just need to make more trips back to town to sell all of your loot. You can just throw all the extra stuff on to your companions, but I forget about ammo quite frequently and end up running into a cave with 150/190 weight because of it.

It's an annoyance, but relatively harmless. Just get a base at Novac or in New Vegas and you can keep all your spare ammos there while carrying only what you need for the weapon you have(I use a sniper rifle and a shotgun, usually about 35-50 ammo for sniper, 100 ammo for shotty).

2. Adds sleep, hunger, and thirst bars. They basically act as a new radiation meter, except they're always increasing instead of just in specific areas. This feature is a lot like the ammo one, in that all it really does is increase the weight of what you're carrying.

I rarely ever went into battle with dehydration, sleep deprivation, or hunger. Sometimes it happened when I wasn't paying attention, but the debuffs aren't so bad as to be game changing.

Really, what it means is that you'll be carrying around brahmin/gecko steaks and bottles of dirty/purified water. You'll also have to rarely sleep, but you should be doing that anyway for the exp bonus(which only applies when you own the bed like in Novac or New Vegas).

It would have been made a lot better with an addition to the user interface that showed you(quickly and easily) how thirsty/hungry/tired you are. Instead you have to go to your Pip-boy, look at your status and fool around with it there.

It's an annoyance.

3. Your companions can die. I can see how this would be a problem if the game didn't auto save as frequently as it does or if you didn't know that F5 was quicksave. If you're playing specifically so that once your companions die they're always dead all this is going to mean is that you're going to be reloading slightly more frequently since the AI of your companions sucks pretty hard.

It's an annoyance.

4. The way healing works. This is really the only change that adds any lasting difficulty to the game. Normally, you use a stimpack and you're given the life instantly. In hardcore, you get life over time, instead of a lump sum. This means you'll be more likely to use stimpacks early and often(even though I still end up with 500 million of the things because I like range and sneaking). It also applies to rad-away, but that's not as important as you should be lowering your radiation faster than you're gaining it anyway.

It changes the way you heal yourself and might actually effect game play.

I've only played New Vegas with hardcore mode enabled, but I don't think it's so big of a deal as to actually matter a whole lot. It adds tedium in forcing you to carry around a bunch of stuff you might need, or might not. It forces you to make more trips to stores, sacrifice time traveling all around, since you'll probably end up going back for the loot anyway.

If it weren't for the additions of a companion wheel interface and the weapon mods, I'd say that Fallout 3 was hands down the better game.

On topic:

I don't mind the idea of making murder matter, but I don't think you're going to have an easy time doing it. I've had psychological barriers placed up against killing certain NPCs(the "good" guys, for example or people that don't automatically try to kill you on sight), but I can get over the killing pretty easily if they make me mad(*cough* Boomers *cough*).
 

Dirty Hipsters

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I did a pacifist run in Fallout New Vegas. My character did not have a single kill to his name, either NPC nor animal. Boone and Ed-E did all the work, and my character did nothing but cower in corners and sweat talk people.
 

LobsterFeng

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I'm actually really glad I found this thread, because I was playing NV recently where this happened:

So you know that Tomas guy? He's the one with a ton of Sunset Sarsaparilla Star Caps that basically runs up to you and tells you he almost got killed over these and he doesn't understand why.

I can't exactly remember what your dialogue options are at that point, but I remember letting him go after thinking about killing him for the caps.

Much, much, later in the game, I was wandering around discovering new locations because I didn't feel like doing any quests. I saw a guy in the distance and when I zoomed in on him with my scope I saw that it was Tomas. Apparently after talking to him he just wanders around the Mojave Desert.

So I went up to talk to him thinking another conversation would start, it didn't. When I tried talking to him, all he'd do is say "Howdy" like any other non-interactive NPC.

I thought to myself "Well that's dumb" and without thinking twice I killed him with one shot, and stole his caps.

In conclusion, yes there probably should be more punishment for killing people in Fallout, especially if it's a good person. Because at this point, even if you think it's wrong to kill an innocent person, you'll probably realize that it's just a game later on when you run into him again and find out that you can't talk or interact with him at all.
 

nyarlathotepsama

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I'd like to contend that the character in EVERY fallout game kills loads of people and that I believe nearly everyone in that universe can be defined as Insane.

But yeah seriously my favorite style of game these days is stealth-action titles that allow me to use non-lethal force because it is funny to imagine all terrorist or goons waking up after I drag them in to vents or shove them into closets. It amuses to no end to wonder what law enforcement thinks when they enter a place that was filled with gun toting thugs only to find them all knocked out with no trace of who did it.

Games should be more punishing for killing since it really isn't a sane thing to be doing. However with the Fallout Series I tend to believe something different. Kill or be killed is a way of life in that world, well mostly, and if you want to be a murderer then by all means do so. I believe New Vegas handled it better than Fallout 3 since it had Karma and then individual trust levels for cities and factions.

I would love to see your character hunted by NCR ranger teams if they go around killing random people, or some other sort of heroic group maybe even have bounty hunters that don't appear with dialog but just ambush the player if they have been right bastards.
 

Ed130 The Vanguard

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denseWorm said:
In Deus Ex: HR, there is a scene where you cap two drug dealers. Immediately after doing so, a number of nearby NPCs become your enemies, and as soon as you are seen they attack and hunt you. This is made even more glaring because the square that you are standing in when you execute the hits on the dealers is flood lit.

My immediate reaction to this situation was to get behind a wall right next to these NPCs, and wait for minutes until one of them made some kind of move that would have allowed me to extricate myself from the situation.

It would have been much easier to just gun my way through, but I chose to sneak my way through a crowded back alley, almost constantly at risk of being caught, and resolve the situation that way.

This speaks of my over-riding impulse in video gaming: I really don't want to kill too many people. Obviously it depends on the game - some games insist that you do, for instance, in order to complete a given objective - but in general I will do everything in my power to see myself as an omnicient agent of targeted objectives, rather than some wanton murderer. I am not very interested in online or offline games that glorify killing, and when I play TES I only ever sneak places, freeze enemies and dispatch them before they have a chance to hit me back.
Those two guys, I just used a incapacitate move on them.

Generally I go pacifist in games that allow such playthroughs, unfortunately most games go 'violence is the answer because its fun' route.

This is why I'm getting Dishonored over Assassins Creed 3, Creed my be a more established franchise and the devs have proven they can make a amazing free-running environment but Dishonored allows complete pacifist runs where you don't kill ANYONE even your targets (at east according to the dev you can't).

As for whether or not games SHOULD punish you or not? I really don't know.

gung ho (yes captcha that is a problem with many games)
 

Lucane

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"The Walking Dead" should be right up your alley then they humanize some of the living "and a few of the formerly deceased."you might have to shot/kill/leave for dead.

Ya see, the trick is giving Random Bandit #42 an actual name.
(It's why parents don't let kids name animals they don't keep for long.)
 

direkiller

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Moonlight Butterfly said:
I kill people who attack me. If they attack me then wtf was I supposed to do give them a hug? Fallout doesn't exactly give you a tranq gun.
it dose in a way
boxing gloves & tape wrap will knock people out and not kill them.
it only last for 30 seconds after you stop hitting them though
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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direkiller said:
Moonlight Butterfly said:
I kill people who attack me. If they attack me then wtf was I supposed to do give them a hug? Fallout doesn't exactly give you a tranq gun.
it dose in a way
boxing gloves & tape wrap will knock people out and not kill them.
it only last for 30 seconds after you stop hitting them though
bash bash bash RUN AWAY.

lol I so have to play the game like that xD
 

Lucane

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LobsterFeng said:
I'm actually really glad I found this thread, because I was playing NV recently where this happened:

So you know that Tomas guy? He's the one with a ton of Sunset Sarsaparilla Star Caps that basically runs up to you and tells you he almost got killed over these and he doesn't understand why.

I can't exactly remember what your dialogue options are at that point, but I remember letting him go after thinking about killing him for the caps.

Much, much, later in the game, I was wandering around discovering new locations because I didn't feel like doing any quests. I saw a guy in the distance and when I zoomed in on him with my scope I saw that it was Tomas. Apparently after talking to him he just wanders around the Mojave Desert.

So I went up to talk to him thinking another conversation would start, it didn't. When I tried talking to him, all he'd do is say "Howdy" like any other non-interactive NPC.

I thought to myself "Well that's dumb" and without thinking twice I killed him with one shot, and stole his caps.

In conclusion, yes there probably should be more punishment for killing people in Fallout, especially if it's a good person. Because at this point, even if you think it's wrong to kill an innocent person, you'll probably realize that it's just a game later on when you run into him again and find out that you can't talk or interact with him at all.
Oh, good ol' Tomas and Jacklyn. That was a weird situation to walk up on depending on who wins the fight(which if you see early enough on you can assist in the decision.) the survivor will come running up to you and plead there story.

Tommy is attacked by her to steal his caps off his corpse which lets you either trick him into handing them over,threaten him, or steal them when he walks away.

Jackie on the other hand try's to say he was attacking her for the star caps (but if you notice she'll run up to his fallen body to take them.) and if she starts to think you have any she'll attack you too.

Like I said before giving Jacklyn a name humanizes her. (Though, not much more than remembering she didn't want to kill you the player on site at least.)
 

Daveman

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To be honest, as much as I know very little about killing, I doubt I'm going to be personally upset if a crazed raider runs up to me with lump of dynamite and I blow his head off.
 

Gottesstrafe

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Yeah, right around the middle of Fallout 3 or NV there'd always be a point where I'm lining up my sights on a random raider or Enclave soldier with my sniper rifle, when suddenly I'm hit by the massive number of people I've killed to get to that point. Mind you, I wasn't playing an incredibly evil character that killed people indiscriminately, but it was still a staggeringly large number to consider. What made it worse was that I usually played the stealthy long-range type of character, so most of those kills were made without even confirming if they were hostile or not and merely a "shoot-on-sight" mentality that I had begun to adapt. I know that in the meta game you know that they're supposed to be hostile since they always wear the same clothes and show up red on my radar, but short of stumbling on a raider cannibal base with body parts lying around how was my character supposed to know that? Even then, these are still people that are just doing what they have to do to survive. The capital wasteland couldn't support agriculture, so I can't really fault them for doing what they had to do for food and clean water. I suppose I could rationalize it by telling myself that in the long run I'd be saving more people from them (the raiders) by preemptively executing them, but when at least 80% of the population of the game world is made up of raiders that I shoot on sight then how is that supposed to make sense?

At least in the TES games there was a little ambiguity there. The hostile NPCs were hard to differentiate from normal NPCs because they dressed similarly to them, as opposed to a strict dress code of dirty rags on leather jerkins (especially in Morrowind where most NPCs had a name). I would actually have to approach them first to determine their intentions toward me, the results of which at least gave me justification for sticking a knife in their jugular. And even then it's not definite. I remember this one bit in Morrowind where I infiltrated the tower of a rogue Telvanni wizard and started looting it. In one of his closets on the ground floor I found 2 hostile Skeleton Champions (*sigh* I know, get it out of your system), upon which I decided that the resident Telvanni must be some sort of hostile conjurer. On the floor just below the top one I came across a Daedroth wandering around the halls. After perforating its skull with an arrow I crept to the stairs, only to find a Dwemer Centurion guarding the upper landing. One lobotomized robot later I made it to the top floor... only to discover a nonhostile Telvanni wizard that I then proceeded chum up with and chat up on the intricacies of magic. Then the conversation turned to his cherished nonhostile pet Dwemer Centurion and Daedrot- OH DEAR.

In games like Hitman: Blood Money and Deus Ex I made it a point not to kill people needlessly. In Hitman I went through great lengths to avoid killing civilians and guards, and even made every target that I killed look like accidents when the game allowed it (wow, a whole lot of people must've slipped over that railing and snapped their necks on a 4 ft. drop). Likewise in Deus Ex I went through the game on a pacifist run and finished the game with the baton and stun rod. Hell, I even dragged the bodies of guards out of harms way before I detonated that factory. Those games kept track of and penalized you for high kill counts, I'd like to see a similar mechanic in other RPGs where NPCs respond to you differently depending on how many people you've killed (I don't care how many of them were bandits and highway men, as soon as your kill count breaks the 3 digit mark no one is going to just casually walk up to you all friendly like and make absent minded remarks about the weather). Perhaps also smarter enemy NPCs that can recognize a losing battle and sod off or be intimidated into standing down before combat begins.