Poll: Father in rural Germany finds his young son likes to wear dresses; does the same to show solidarity.

[JeffBergGold]

You hit the nail squarely when you said it makes me uncomfortable. Seeing that little kid in a dress makes me feel disgusted. Seeing the man in the dress makes me feel disgusted. I know it shouldn't! but it does. It makes me feel as if males are being squelched and marginalized. I know it sounds crazy but other than my circle of friends I almost encounter nothing but weak males! It scares me it makes me feel as if me and more normal male friends are abnormal since so many guys are feminine and weak.

You yourself clearly know you don't have a good reason for thinking that way. It's something ingrained and illogical. By the sound of it you would actually agree with that statement. So there's not really anything to discuss, but if you realize you're acting in an irrational way surely you'd want to change that?

"Scared" is an unusual word to use, and another reason you should think about reconsidering your viewpoint. It's the change that scares you, its too far from what you expect from the world around you, but your expectations aren't logical.

"Weak" is another word I would like to bring up, I assume you mean physically weak, if that's the case fair enough, although I don't know if that would be entirely true, and being physically strong is also not an important characteristic for men to have in developed nations in the 21st century. If you mean mentally/emotionally weak that's a whole other kettle of fish. Please clarify this.

Why would being physical strength ever be unimportant. A physically weak and poorly developed boy is shameful and revolting. I mean weak in all forms, physically weak, emotionally weak, socially weak, psychologically weak, intellectually weak. Weakness is something that a male should always strive to overcome and remove.

Lacking strength in an arena is to be a failure as a man.

The scary thing is that there are large numbers of men who are proud of being physically weak, revel in psychological weakness, are proud of being socially weak, intellectual parrots etc. They are proud of being weak! This is terrible for so many reasons.

I walk down the street and see men with pathetic weak ugly bodies that can't defend themselves or their families if they were to be attacked. That disgusts me.

I see men proud to have a girlfriend who is less attractive than them and warrant an undeserving women care and intimacy. His desperation lowers the value of all men. I have had men deride me for having multiple relationships and not emotionally investing in a woman just because she happens to be a woman. These men don't understand that they are giving away their control. That disgusts me.

I see men who proudly espouse and subscribe to others ideals, without coming to conclusions on their own. They are walking parrots of their particular social circle. Intellectually weak they believe intellect is the accumulation of facts and one dimensional. That disgusts me.

Men are supposed to be socially capable, charming, charismatic, confident, dominating, individualist. So many men I encounter are weak, submissive, docile, insecure, herd followers, etc. This disgusts me!

I could go on forever, it boils down to this surge of effeminacy and all men who embrace/display it disgusting. Mainly because it makes being a man boil down to a certain genitalia rather than being something a person has to work at.

Jeff I think what you are getting at is that in this time of changes many people lose their way and this saddens and upsets you. This can turn into disgust when you see people revelling in their weakness and accepting what they have become. If I read you right the reason seems to be primarily because you have worked hard to be who you are and you don't like seeing people applauded for rolling over because it devalues your accomplishments.

You've worded it very eloquently. You are absolutely correct in your assessment. I don't care so much that these people are "applauded". I am upset that weakness is rewarded. I am upset that people are proud of weakness. I am upset that people devalue and demonize strength. Effeminacy is a direct manifestation of that in my opinion.

A man wearing a dress seems like a symbol of that for you.

Absolutely.

But as men we must learn from women and do all the great things that they know how to do just as they are learning all the great things we know how to do.

What does that have to do with being effeminate? Why would a man "learn" to be a woman? Why would a woman learn to be a man? What purpose does it serve? It has no benefit!

What would I gain by being more like a woman? What would a woman gain being more like me?

I get what you're trying to convey, I just disagree though, sorry. Hormones influence behavior should I start taking estrogen shots to learn to be like a woman? Should a woman start shooting up testosterone to be more like me?

I accept and respect anyone who strives to be better but(you) it is for the individual to decide what is better for them and how much they can handle. Sometimes you hit a wall and say I just have to accept who I am right now even if it isn't who you want to end up as. There's no end to self-improvement but it has to happen in stages.

Striving to be better is not worthy of praise, thanks though.

I don't believe the individual always knows whats best for themselves. I've been pushed by people beyond what I thought I could "handle" and am better because of it. Everyone would benefit from this type of treatment. Not a lackadaisical, "you get there when you get there" approach. People have to be pushed beyond what is comfortable to become better. If people are never pushed they will in a state of perpetual never ending weakness.

I know many small physically weak men who have excelled at what they chose for their life. I have known many physically strong men who have no direction, morality, or desire to improve.

I've known many physically strong men who have excelled at what they chose for their life. I have known many small physically weak men who have no direction, morality*, or desire to improve.

Physical weakness is almost always indicative of mental weakness the human brain is a part of the physical body. I have much trouble respecting, or taking seriously, people who are not as physically strong or stronger than me. If a guy can't beat me in an athletic competition he is not even warranted respect.

People in good physical condition have better brain function than those who neglect their bodies.

My opinion of physical weakness is similar to how you compare physical strength with lack of direction and amorality.

For some wearing a dress is who they want to be and it was a great act of self-determination and will to declare themselves to the world.

You're attributing too much to the child in the dress. This is a child too young to think independently being poisoned to think wearing a womans clothing is okay to serve validate his fathers political perspective.

For others they fit nowhere and were too lazy to make themselves so they signed up with the reject norms who would accept them and then cried foul when you called them on it.

I don't understand what you're trying to convey with this statement. You've used a few of the words strangely. I would appreciate it you clarify this statement for me? Thanks.

Perhaps if you reflect some more you may come to respect the former but not the latter?

It's a possibility. Although it would be extremely hard for me to ever respect willful weakness. If someone is trying to better themselves and fails? That is something I can respect. If someone is making no attempt to better themselves and is proud of being weak in anyway? I can't respect it. It sounds harsh but I don't think weakness should ever be respected.

 

[JeffBergGold]

I love how you talk about men that are emotionally weak when this entire post is based on you putting emotion (disgust, revolt) before logic. Nice one.

Emotionally weak in the sense of having negative emotions such as sadness. Anger is an appropriate emotion that doesn't fall under the umbrella of emotional weakness.

Also you just displayed your sexism,

What?

because my question was a ruse to get you to say femininity is a weak trait. If femininity means intellectually and emotionally weak then you think women are intellectually and emotionally weak too. Again, nice one.

Femininity is not a weak trait. Femininity in men is a weak trait. Please try to comprehend better. Such purposeful misconstructions of my opinion to pigeonhole me into your already established opinion is wrong and dangerous.

Femininity is not weak, femininity in men is.

That is the statement I made.

Strength means nothing anymore.

See if you still believe that when a burglar breaks into your house. Or get into competition with a physically superior male.

I've been alive 22 years and never once had to defend myself.

That doesn't mean you won't have to. I've been alive for x amount of years and had to defend myself countless times. Are you trying to tell me that being physically capable was worthless in these situations?

Because I live in a civilized nation that values words before fists, and I'm not a caveman.

So you equivocate physical competence with being unevolved? I can see why you don't like physicality. You affiliate it with being a lesser human.

I'm not PROUD of being physically weak,

Yes you are.

I just don't care, partly because of its unimportance,

How did you determine that it was unimportant?

partly because I like my slim figure and think it suits me as well as my style. Maybe in the future ill want to bulk up, but it will be for health reasons, or because I want to change my look, not because I wnt 2 b strnger an fihgt betta.

So you're weak because it is a part of your image?

It's funny how you can't seem to understand that people might have these personal preferences.

I can, you're awarding me false attributions to progress your argument. I'm going to have to call you on that.

As I said before, I also have no problem with getting women to like me, because I actually am charismatic and confident, so that further proves how physical strength is a preference these days. Does that hurt? That all that time you spend in the gym doesn't really matter? auw.

I never directed the post at you, However, since you've taken it as a personal attack I can't but help but think that I have inadvertently described you.

I would like to add that if you think all men should be socially capable, you probably shouldn't be on a forum full of hopeless shut-ins and nerds. They don't actually represent the majority of men, and they annoy and depress me sometimes, so I hate to think how they'll make you feel.

The forum isn't full of shut-ins and nerds. Since video games are not restricted to shut-ins and nerds.

and finally, men do boil down to a certain genitalia. What makes me a man, is the fact that I was born with a Y chromosome. What makes me a good person, and what makes me who I am, are completely different qualities not related to my gender at all.

No, what makes you man is the qualities I described. Male does not equal Man do not confuse the two.

I'm done with you, because it seems hopeless getting you to change your tune.

Solipsism? How girly.

 

[Something Amyss]

I find it hard to believe that 70% of Americans think that women shouldn't wear pants when they wear things like skinny jeans all the time. Where exactly are you getting these statistics from? If you said something like 70% percent of conservatives from the state of Alabama believe women shouldn't wear pants then that might be more believable because Republicans from the Deep South are kinda batshit insane.

82% of statistics are made up on the spot. 97% of Americans know that.

 

[Something Amyss]

He likely will once he realises all his mates aren't wearing them.

Yeah, at 5 I was in school and socially aware. Are Germans that different?

Not saying it's definite, but if he's just wearing a dress because he likes the breeze or because they're comfy. Feeling like an outsider amongst his school friends is likely to change his mind once he becomes more aware.

Which is kind of sad, but still, is he not in school? When the hell do they start school over there?

 

[Something Amyss]

It would be deeply saddening if his mother was raising him to become the type of man who wears dresses. Although, this is outside the realm of possibility since she despises effeminacy in males as much as I do.

Oh? What type is that, praytell?

And why does it fall to the mother? Or upbringing at all?

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

I'd move to Scotland.

No but seriously, he'll probably grow out of it, I'd let him do it for the time being.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Also, pants are still considered somewhat taboo amongst the more conservative 70% of my country.

wait what? where are you possibly pulling that from?

to quote you, i'll say [citation needed]

 

[AzraelArmond]

Jeff I think what you are getting at is that in this time of changes many people lose their way and this saddens and upsets you. This can turn into disgust when you see people revelling in their weakness and accepting what they have become. If I read you right the reason seems to be primarily because you have worked hard to be who you are and you don't like seeing people applauded for rolling over because it devalues your accomplishments.

You've worded it very eloquently. You are absolutely correct in your assessment. I don't care so much that these people are "applauded". I am upset that weakness is rewarded. I am upset that people are proud of weakness. I am upset that people devalue and demonize strength. Effeminacy is a direct manifestation of that in my opinion.

I agree with everything but the last sentence. Strength has many forms.

But as men we must learn from women and do all the great things that they know how to do just as they are learning all the great things we know how to do.

What does that have to do with being effeminate? Why would a man "learn" to be a woman? Why would a woman learn to be a man? What purpose does it serve? It has no benefit!

What would I gain by being more like a woman? What would a woman gain being more like me?

I get what you're trying to convey, I just disagree though, sorry. Hormones influence behavior should I start taking estrogen shots to learn to be like a woman? Should a woman start shooting up testosterone to be more like me?

Effeminate behaviour in males is an unfortunate bi-product of learning the ways of women for some, and for some it is their own biochemistry. I am not suggesting you act effeminate. I am certainly not suggesting you inject anything. But knowledge is a form of strength and power. Of course a man should defend his woman. But if the woman can defend herself as well isn't that right? Would your own life not be enhanced by understanding linguistic and emotional nuances with the same depth most women traditionally do? If you got old together and one of you got sick would it not be right to be prepared to assume the others duties so you were not trying to learn in a state of grief.

I accept and respect anyone who strives to be better but(you) it is for the individual to decide what is better for them and how much they can handle. Sometimes you hit a wall and say I just have to accept who I am right now even if it isn't who you want to end up as. There's no end to self-improvement but it has to happen in stages.

Striving to be better is not worthy of praise, thanks though.

I don't believe the individual always knows whats best for themselves. I've been pushed by people beyond what I thought I could "handle" and am better because of it. Everyone would benefit from this type of treatment. Not a lackadaisical, "you get there when you get there" approach. People have to be pushed beyond what is comfortable to become better. If people are never pushed they will in a state of perpetual never ending weakness.

Striving to be better is worthy of praise in a time when people are rewarded for weakness.
I agree, and perhaps this is our age of consent talking but you need permission before you push. But permission comes at the start I agree you can't wimp out in the middle. Sometimes you need a breath of air on a long climb though.

I know many small physically weak men who have excelled at what they chose for their life. I have known many physically strong men who have no direction, morality, or desire to improve.

I've known many physically strong men who have excelled at what they chose for their life. I have known many small physically weak men who have no direction, morality*, or desire to improve.

Physical weakness is almost always indicative of mental weakness the human brain is a part of the physical body. I have much trouble respecting, or taking seriously, people who are not as physically strong or stronger than me. If a guy can't beat me in an athletic competition he is not even warranted respect.

People in good physical condition have better brain function than those who neglect their bodies.

My opinion of physical weakness is similar to how you compare physical strength with lack of direction and amorality.

It was not a comparison. I thought it was taken as a given that the opposite of my statement was also true. Of course there are many strong people with direction and morality. What I was saying is that I have met many exceptions to your rule on both ends.
Good physical condition doesn't always mean strong. Also people have their own aptitudes though effort and practice is important. I naturally am inclined to be cerebral and reflective rather than physical. To compensate I ride bike 2 hours each day and work a physical job, but would still likely lose most physical competitions against you.

For some wearing a dress is who they want to be and it was a great act of self-determination and will to declare themselves to the world.

You're attributing too much to the child in the dress. This is a child too young to think independently being poisoned to think wearing a womans clothing is okay to serve validate his fathers political perspective.

Oh I wasn't speaking of the child. Read my earlier post before I wrote to you on my opinions on that. My stand was quite clear.

For others they fit nowhere and were too lazy to make themselves so they signed up with the reject norms who would accept them and then cried foul when you called them on it.

I don't understand what you're trying to convey with this statement. You've used a few of the words strangely. I would appreciate it you clarify this statement for me? Thanks.

What I meant was for some it is self-expression and an act of courage to defy social norms so strong and for others they simply do it because they are conformists who fell into a counter culture group because that was the only group that would accept them. They then scream discrimination when you criticize them as individuals for being total whiny losers. The irony is those same people would be making fun of people like themselves if a better group had the idiocy to accept them.

Perhaps if you reflect some more you may come to respect the former but not the latter?

It's a possibility. Although it would be extremely hard for me to ever respect willful weakness. If someone is trying to better themselves and fails? That is something I can respect. If someone is making no attempt to better themselves and is proud of being weak in anyway? I can't respect it. It sounds harsh but I don't think weakness should ever be respected.

[/quote]

My main message to you is that there are many forms of strength and there are many forms of weakness. It is weakness to have presented to you a path of strength and then ignore it due to a fear of losing masculinity for this could only happen to you if your will failed and you were consumed by that knowledge. It is weakness to dismiss another person's courage and struggle simply because their path is not yours because it displays inflexibility and the strong bend rather than break. It is weakness to see your path as the only correct path for all men because it is simply untrue and you can't prove strength to men you don't understand. You are not a weak man so I assume that you will correct these weaknesses. I'm not asking you to respect weakness. I'm asking you to perceive strength that is different from your strength.

 

[AzraelArmond]

Also apologies for my thread edit Jeff I'm still figuring out the board, but in a post a bit back you actually attributed statements to me that were quite hostile that were actually said by someone else. I think it is because you replied to me and then replied to someone else and perhaps my link got put in? Correct that.

 

[Zack Alklazaris]

This is wonderful for the record, nice smile to add to the day. Thank You.

As for the question my Wife and I are about total gender equality when it comes to our kids. Honestly, while we'd would accepted our child no matter what the preference we would like them to be bi like his/her parents. We both agree that there are some cross gender guys that are just beautiful and can pull it off perfectly.

pic snip

There are better pictures, but they are DEFINITELY not appropriate for the forums.

As long as my child isn't harming others or himself I don't give a damn what he does as long as it makes him happy. I do acknowledge that such... well for lack of a better word "lifestyles" can cause ridicule and misery to him. I will say I'll be there for him as much as I could.

---------

Pre added statements to avoid future arguments.

There isn't anything physically wrong with men wearing dresses. Both boys and girls used to wearing dresses for over 2 centuries. Also lets not forget than women were not allowed to wear pants until very recently.

I'm sorry but I kind of tuned everything out....that's a dude?

lol yes thats a dude

 

[Vault101]

I know it's not a good reason. I just know that male femininity illicits a strong response in me. When I see or am around an effeminate male It feels as if I am being personally attacked.

The only logical conclusion I can draw is that masculinity and being a male are both things that I highly value and a part of my identity and that males who aren't masculine make me feel that maleness and thus my identity is under attack. That is the best I can come up with. I'm still trying to figure out why I feel this way.

wha?

I.....I...

[img/]http://ishouldhavecalledhimcalvin.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/calvin_hobbes-laughing.jpg[/img]

I don;t even.....I mean
......


[b/]no one is attacking you by virtue of existing[/b] its all in your head

get over yourself...please

 

[Zack Alklazaris]

I know it's not a good reason. I just know that male femininity illicits a strong response in me. When I see or am around an effeminate male It feels as if I am being personally attacked.

The only logical conclusion I can draw is that masculinity and being a male are both things that I highly value and a part of my identity and that males who aren't masculine make me feel that maleness and thus my identity is under attack. That is the best I can come up with. I'm still trying to figure out why I feel this way.

wha?

I.....I...

[img/]http://ishouldhavecalledhimcalvin.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/calvin_hobbes-laughing.jpg[/img]

I don;t even.....I mean
......


[b/]no one is attacking you by virtue of existing[/b] its all in your head

get over yourself...please

Yeah this is called homophobia. Nothing wrong with that in itself. Though if you start openly gay bashing I think this forum may have a problem with you. Believe me, your imagining things. Even when I'm attracted to a guy I respect his space until I know for certain he shares similar views. This isn't just for same sex relationships, it should be for all. I can no more slap a girl on the ass than I can a guy without retaliation.

If someone in genuinely making unwanted advances on you then I'm sorry, but thats usually not the case.

 

[SextusMaximus]

Fuark, absolutely legendary! Great show to the father.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

Physical weakness is almost always indicative of mental weakness the human brain is a part of the physical body. I have much trouble respecting, or taking seriously, people who are not as physically strong or stronger than me. If a guy can't beat me in an athletic competition he is not even warranted respect.

I see men proud to have a girlfriend who is less attractive than them and warrant an undeserving women care and intimacy. His desperation lowers the value of all men. I have had men deride me for having multiple relationships and not emotionally investing in a woman just because she happens to be a woman. These men don't understand that they are giving away their control. That disgusts me.

Id love some clarification.

Are you seriously saying physically weak people are always stupid? I mean seriously? Youd have trouble taking your doctor seriously if he couldnt beat you in a punching match? Youd have trouble taking your professor or someone of massive intellectual merit seriously because he cant launch a fist as hard as you? Thats utterly inane and intellectually weak to associate two things that have basically NO correlation at all and give respect accordingly. If your respect is earned and lost with "Can you hit this thing as hard as i can" then your respect is less than worthless. Respect is earned by deeds, personal worth and by character. Not entirely by physical strength.

Also what constitutes strength? Im not physically strong. But i own a bow and im a pretty damn good shot. Likewise with a gun. I imagine if our conflict was firearms/bow related id beat you very easily. If anyone broke into my house i could turn them into a pincushion fairly comfortably. Am i still weak for opting to learn useful and difficult skills rather than work out? Both options are equally valid. Id say i had to work harder to master a technique intellectually than anyone did by pumping weights.

Second this time im genuinely confused. I think its only fair to say control in a relationship should be about 50/50. I mean women are not possessions right? We cant "dominate" them unless they actually want to be dominated or else its fucking weird. I would agree if you mean "Men give ALL control to women just because they are desperate" because i agree thats weak. I wouldnt agree if you mean "Men give some control to women and thats bad because women having any control is weak".

Dont you find the entire idea that you, super strong anti weakness you, is THREATENED by a DUDE IN A DRESS to be the pinicle of weakness? What does it say about the "surety" of your strength that the mere existence of a dude who cares not for your values makes you utterly disgusted and unsettled. How weak must your stance be, how low your own confidence in what you think, that even a single disagreeing view totally unsettles your world. Ive never been weirded out by anyone's existence because i know what i value is worth valuing and no one just thinking or being differently can make me doubt it to any serious degree. It seems to be that if youre so easily rocked and "attacked"/"Threatened" then your stance is insanely weak. It speaks of colossal insecurity to be so hostile to any opposing thought just because it exists because you find that threatening. Its rather childish if anything.

 

[Sandjube]

You hit the nail squarely when you said it makes me uncomfortable. Seeing that little kid in a dress makes me feel disgusted. Seeing the man in the dress makes me feel disgusted. I know it shouldn't! but it does. It makes me feel as if males are being squelched and marginalized. I know it sounds crazy but other than my circle of friends I almost encounter nothing but weak males! It scares me it makes me feel as if me and more normal male friends are abnormal since so many guys are feminine and weak.

You yourself clearly know you don't have a good reason for thinking that way. It's something ingrained and illogical. By the sound of it you would actually agree with that statement. So there's not really anything to discuss, but if you realize you're acting in an irrational way surely you'd want to change that?

"Scared" is an unusual word to use, and another reason you should think about reconsidering your viewpoint. It's the change that scares you, its too far from what you expect from the world around you, but your expectations aren't logical.

"Weak" is another word I would like to bring up, I assume you mean physically weak, if that's the case fair enough, although I don't know if that would be entirely true, and being physically strong is also not an important characteristic for men to have in developed nations in the 21st century. If you mean mentally/emotionally weak that's a whole other kettle of fish. Please clarify this.

Why would being physical strength ever be unimportant. A physically weak and poorly developed body is shameful and revolting. I mean weak in all forms, physically weak, emotionally weak, socially weak, psychologically weak, intellectually weak. Weakness is something that a male should always strive to overcome and remove.

Lacking strength in any arena is to be a failure as a man.

The scary thing is that there are large numbers of men who are proud of being physically weak, revel in psychological weakness, are proud of being socially weak, intellectual parrots etc. They are proud of being weak! This is terrible for so many reasons.

I walk down the street and see men with pathetic weak ugly bodies that can't defend themselves or their families if they were to be attacked. That disgusts me.

I see men proud to have a girlfriend who is less attractive than them and warrant an undeserving women care and intimacy. His desperation lowers the value of all men. I have had men deride me for having multiple relationships and not emotionally investing in a woman just because she happens to be a woman. These men don't understand that they are giving away their control. That disgusts me.

I see men who proudly espouse and subscribe to others ideals, without coming to conclusions on their own. They are walking parrots of their particular social circle. Intellectually weak they believe intellect is the accumulation of facts and one dimensional. That disgusts me.

Men are supposed to be socially capable, charming, charismatic, confident, dominating, individualist. So many men I encounter are weak, submissive, docile, insecure, herd followers, etc. This disgusts me!

I could go on forever, it boils down to this surge of effeminacy and all men who embrace/display it disgusting. Mainly because it makes being a man boil down to a certain genitalia rather than being something a person has to work at.

I was going to let this slide since you're probably being quoted enough, I don't know, but seriously? You are disgusted by men who don't have a supermodel as a girlfriend? Even though they may be witty, warm, generous, fun, smart (etc.) people? I...don't even know what to say to that to be honest. Hopefully you grow out of that at some point, regardless of your current age.

 

[Zack Alklazaris]

I think he trolled... theres no way. At least I hope. Life isn't just about tits n dicks people.

 

[JWAN]

Hell, I bet any boy with older sisters was probably forced at one point or another to wear dresses. My sister forced me into a goddamn fairy costume once.

No, it didn't make me gay.

 

[EightGaugeHippo]

Might be the more selfish option, but I would not allow it (at least while hes a small child)

So you mean that when he can actually blend in a crowd and look like a girl you're not going to let him do it because of shame, but when he gets hairy legs and face he's free to stand out like a sore thumb?

Wat.

No, I think you know full well what I mean. But just incase you don't I'll reiterate. While my hypothetical son is too young to dress himself, I would not help him wear a dress. For quite a few reasons.
-because he would most likely grow out of doing it
-because he would be ridiculed by his peer
-because i think putting a dress on a small boy (wether he wanted to or not) is creepy as hell
-because walking down the street, I already get stared at, I would not like my hypothetical son to recieve the same.

Once however, he reaches the legal age of concent (here its 16) he can obviously dress himself by this point, and if he wants to wear a dress he can.

Also, your point about hairy legs and face make no sense... you can shave hair.