Poll: Forced Thought

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Mray3460

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A strange idea occurred to me today while thinking about human thought processes, namely about the fact that many humans, either consciously or unconsciously, do "mental gymnastics" to either ignore information directly against what they believe in, inflate their own egos, enable "group think," or to justify their own actions because it's "easier" than seeing and dealing with the truth (This is often seen in the case of cult victims, extremists, supremacists, and other deliberately ignorant or "blind" individuals)(I.E. a man believes that he is better at everything than everyone else, even though he has been beaten in a number of contests in areas that he has specifically claimed to be superior at):

What if there was a way to literally FORCE someone to acknowledge the truth or make it impossible for them to ignore or dismiss a superior argument or irrefutable evidence (I.E. the aforementioned man would find himself unable to deny that he had lost due to someone else having a superior level of skill, and that his opponent hadn't just "gotten lucky" or convince himself that he hadn't "really been trying").

For the sake of argument, lets assume the process would work something like the classic electric-chair-esk setup of the helmet and manacles: Strap someone in, throw the switch, and in 5 to 10 seconds, with no physical pain or damage of any kind, the person would be unable to deliberately remain ignorant through mental exercise, become drawn into a "group think" situation, or be indoctrinated by an ideology to the point of being unable or unwilling to disregard it when glaring, damning flaws in it are pointed out.

Initially, I thought of what an incredible world it would be if the technology were applied to everyone (No more cults, No more group think, No more bigotry, etc.) but I then thought of the human rights and free will concerns. Does someone have the right to be a bigot? An idiot? A figurative sheep? Which brings me to the questions of the poll: If this technology existed, should it be applied to the masses? Why or Why not?

Note: The technology does not and cannot target individual ideologies, or any mental processes that aren't specifically mentioned above.

Edit: As clarification, the device does not tell people what to think. It forces people to think, period. With no specific arguments, beliefs, opinions, or facts imprinted into the person's brain. Rather, it forces them to continually (even after exposure) examine their own beliefs and the beliefs of others objectively ( with no pre-conceived notions interfering with their judgment).
 

Kuchinawa212

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Apr 23, 2009
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Nah, forcing people to think, even if is to stop being ignorant, is a bad thing. People should at least be safe in their own minds, not FORCED to think anything.

Except for this one guy I know that thinks he can dent air with a hammer and he's a soph in highschool, but no amount of zapping is going to fix that
 

Amnestic

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Aug 22, 2008
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The technology does not and cannot target individual ideologies, or any mental processes that aren't specifically mentioned above.
Yet.

You forgot the "Yet."

A machine which forces information and a point of view into someone's head so that they can't ignore it? Yes, I can see no issue with creating a brain washing machine whatsoever. Probably the best idea you've ever had, assuming you're an evil genius bent on world domination that is.

If there is a way to abuse a piece of technology so that someone will be ahead of their fellow meatbags - someone, somewhere will do it.
 

Mray3460

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Just to give people a frame of reference for the kind of behavior I'm talking about: This episode of South Park (Yes, I know) highlights and analyzes it pretty well.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/guide/1305
 

stone0042

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Yeah, generally not a good idea to invade people's minds. It's the only private place we have left.
 

joshthor

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no you jackass (thats as kindly as i can put it) thats playing God. along with this there is a huge amount of free speech issues, freedom of religion, ect. you would take alot of peoples personalities making them in effect robots cause they cannot think for themselves. this would be worse than mass murder. on top of this: who chooses the truth? who chooses morality? you mention cults but the same ideoligy could apply to accepted religions like christianity, mormanism, jewdism, bhuddist, hindu, muslim and more as technically they are not "logical". plus at the root of things man is evil: who says someone in charge wont make you his personal slave. also, this would cause massive riots to the point that many people leading the charge would die, at which point the military would step in and cause even more bloodshed. this would be the worst idea in the history of the world.

lastly, you would end up sacrificing the whole world to this system when only .001% are the danger group.
 

BenzSmoke

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This sounds alot like the Point of View Gun to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsgbcYnmR6Y

I know it's not a good idea to invade peoples minds. But if you do it occasionally to illustrate a point I think it would be ok. Just don't do it all the time.
 

Shoes

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Sep 19, 2009
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joshthor said:
no you jackass (thats as kindly as i can put it) thats playing God. along with this there is a huge amount of free speech issues, freedom of religion, ect. you would take alot of peoples personalities making them in effect robots cause they cannot think for themselves. this would be worse than mass murder. on top of this: who chooses the truth? who chooses morality? you mention cults but the same ideoligy could apply to accepted religions like christianity, mormanism, jewdism, bhuddist, hindu, muslim and more as technically they are not "logical". plus at the root of things man is evil: who says someone in charge wont make you his personal slave. also, this would cause massive riots to the point that many people leading the charge would die, at which point the military would step in and cause even more bloodshed. this would be the worst idea in the history of the world.

lastly, you would end up sacrificing the whole world to this system when only .001% are the danger group.

This
Amnestic said:
thats playing God
I fail to see the problem with that.
Fail
 

Vuljatar

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Sep 7, 2008
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People have the right to be willfully ignorant.

And we have the right to mock them for it.
 

DazZ.

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If everyone thought the same and there weren't idiots around, people would lose a lot of individuality.
I think individuality makes people and life more interesting, so I voted no.

Do we need everyone to not show superiority even though they are obviously inferior? It just makes it more funny when they fail, plus if everyone was modest I would have to like more people.
 

Mray3460

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joshthor said:
along with this there is a huge amount of free speech issues, freedom of religion, ect.
I agree that this is a primary concern, and a topic for discussion, which is why I brought the subject up.

joshthor said:
You would take alot of peoples personalities making them in effect robots cause they cannot think for themselves.
Ok, clearly I didn't explain what the proposed technology would do well enough. The device wouldn't prevent people from thinking for themselves, it would make them incapable of blindly following an idealology or belief. Essentially, it forces them to be individuals who think for themselves, as they are no longer capable of accepting an idealology without questioning it.

joshthor said:
Who chooses the truth? who chooses morality? you mention cults but the same ideoligy could apply to accepted religions like christianity, mormanism, jewdism, bhuddist, hindu, muslim and more as technically they are not "logical". plus at the root of things man is evil: who says someone in charge wont make you his personal slave.
I'll quote my original post here:

Mray3460 said:
The technology does not and cannot target individual ideologies, or any mental processes that aren't specifically mentioned above.
In essence, the affected person is the one that chooses the truth and morality for themselves. As to the cult v. religion argument, I'll say that although legitamate religions are often followed by people who genuinely think about tham and find them to be solid explanations for the workings of the universe, they can have a cult like effect on people. To borrow some terms from moviebob, the tech would make everyone a "thinker" by eliminating their ability to be a "believer" (See 0:58-2:18 of Game Overthinker V25: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoht0Xy5nQs ).

joshthor said:
this would cause massive riots to the point that many people leading the charge would die, at which point the military would step in and cause even more bloodshed.
I'm confused as to how all of that would occur. Would you mind clarifying?

Edit: Fixed the link
 

cobra_ky

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Nov 20, 2008
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So you want to force people to accept superior arguments, while also making them incapable of succumbing to groupthink.

does anyone else see a problem here?
 

Acier

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Nov 5, 2009
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Isn't this issue (or a very similar one at least) explored in A Clockwork Orange? Which by the way, also stated it was bad.
 

Mray3460

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EClaris said:
Isn't this issue (or a very similar one at least) explored in A Clockwork Orange? Which by the way, also stated it was bad.
The subject of A Clockwork Orange was the ability to choose between good and evil. This is the ability to choose between ignorance and open-mindedness, but I can see how a parallel can be drawn between the two.
 

Duke Nil

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*Edit I see a bit clearer what you're saying, and it's a bit fairer a question than I at first realized but I still say no, bad idea. Sure it would be good if people thought completely without bias or assumption, but the way to accomplish that goal cannot be with a magic machine. Try and think about how such a machine could work: I guess it would be able to recognize and limit thought patterns that tend to be symptomatic of groupthink or denial, but it could never be 100% precise, and anyway who decides what kinds of thinking are acceptable or not? No human can really be said to be entirely free of external influence, so no one would be truly qualified to define exactly what you should be forced to think or not think