Poll: Forced Thought

Recommended Videos

joshthor

New member
Aug 18, 2009
1,274
0
0
Mray3460 said:
joshthor said:
Mray3460 said:
joshthor said:
this would cause massive riots to the point that many people leading the charge would die, at which point the military would step in and cause even more bloodshed.
I'm confused as to how all of that would occur. Would you mind clarifying?

Edit: Fixed the link
people dont like being told what to do. people also dont doing things that they know can cause change, or that have even the slightest possibility to force them to change. hence all wars in the world.
I'm afraid that I still don't follow. Would the very act of attempting to implement the device cause riots or would the change in thought processes/sudden, horrifying revelations of some people caused by the application of the device cause said riots?
people dont like being told thier wrong, and many people would go to their grave to defend thier view no matter how stupid. for instance, the war vs the taliban or al queada. and many people would simply defend thier right to believe what they want. even if they arent crazy. hence why we (in the united states) have a volunteer army.
 

BonsaiK

Music Industry Corporate Whore
Nov 14, 2007
5,635
0
0
Mray3460 said:
BonsaiK said:
Mray3460 said:
snip for the sake of space
I don't know of a single person, ANYWHERE, who ONLY believes in stuff because "well, everyone else does". Belief is a far more complex thing than this, there are any number of other factors at play, including (but not limited to) past life experiences, education, the media, the cultural climate, etc etc...
I was more refering to actions taken there, but I see your point, and concede it.

BonsaiK said:
What if the man who was taken around the world was actually unknowingly drugged and put in a completely convincing "take someone around the world simulator" (by the time scientists can figure out your invention they probably will have figured this one out too)? Using this new thing you're advocating, his ability to question the validity of his experience would be removed.
This is a valid concern, but if someone simply showed the affected man the simulator and proof that he had been in it, he'd adjust his beliefs again (although, he'll have probably gathered more information on the subject by than, and wouldn't simply change his beliefs back). The beauty of the machine is that it is not a one-time effect, rather, it is a permanent change to the person's thought processes, so that even if they willingly change their beliefs once, and strongly support those new beliefs, their beliefs can be changed again if better evidence is presented for a different stance on the subject.
Quite possibly, but a smart government keeps things like that secret. Of course rumours may be leaked as they inevitably are, so then the question becomes "do you believe the rumours"? With a lack of available evidence a person may not believe the rumours. Or they MIGHT, if their ability to believe rumours without evidence hasn't been tampered with by some new technology.

Belief is never just about evidence and hard, empirical data - nor should it be. Having belief only after the fact hampers human endeavour, because while belief can often be damaging to humans (look at the way religion is used as a rallying tool for war, for example), belief without evidence can also inspire people to great and masterful acts (look at all the great works of art and music inspired by religion).
 

Margrave Rinstock

New member
Jul 17, 2009
106
0
0
Hmm...Driving thoughts from ones mind is Important for sanity.

A "Cultist" could come up with a Superior argument to your Average Joe, Stating that Murder is Perfectly Acceptable because of it's Semblance to Natural selection in Nature, or Some other such nonsense.
The Mental Programing would force the Person to Accept ANY argument, no matter how Evil he Knows it is, than it would Poison his mind to a Greater Extent than it would on an Unaltered Person.
Basically, I am Tentative of Any situation when Rock-Solid Morals and Your conscience can be Over-Ruled by someone who Catches you off guard with a Finely Polished Speech.

It Just Makes People More Impressionable, which is a Usually Bad Idea. Very Interesting theory though, I must say.
 

Animated Rope

New member
Apr 14, 2009
238
0
0
So you can't believe something because everyone else does? That's not very practical as I'd rather have faith in someone's legitimacy rather than being forced to study it for myself.
"We need to stop global warming!"
"Hah, I believe that when I read all the arguments myself, which I won't because I'm lazy/busy."

And what happens if someone is willfully ignorant to his own disrespect for human life? What If we all are?

How does it affect philosophical questions? Personally, if I didn't have the ability to look at things with a narrow mind, I would never end up asking myself some very important questions that I now live by.

Under the influence of such a device, I'd likely think human existence is vain and kill people to alleviate my boredom because all arguments against murder is void. I wouldn't even care what happened to myself.
 

Mray3460

New member
Jul 27, 2008
437
0
0
joshthor said:
Mray3460 said:
joshthor said:
Mray3460 said:
joshthor said:
this would cause massive riots to the point that many people leading the charge would die, at which point the military would step in and cause even more bloodshed.
I'm confused as to how all of that would occur. Would you mind clarifying?

Edit: Fixed the link
people dont like being told what to do. people also dont doing things that they know can cause change, or that have even the slightest possibility to force them to change. hence all wars in the world.
I'm afraid that I still don't follow. Would the very act of attempting to implement the device cause riots or would the change in thought processes/sudden, horrifying revelations of some people caused by the application of the device cause said riots?
people dont like being told thier wrong, and many people would go to their grave to defend thier view no matter how stupid. for instance, the war vs the taliban or al queada.
I agree with you entirely on these points, and, personally, I don't have a problem with people believing in ridiculous things. What I have a problem with (and what the machine would stop). Is people blindly following these beliefs without ever questioning them (especially if the belief was something that they've "always" had)

joshthor said:
Many people would simply defend thier right to believe what they want. even if they arent crazy.
The device doesn't force anyone to believe, or stop believing, anything. It prevents them from being closed to other points of view and following their current beliefs without ever questioning them, especially when they are directly contradicted.

For instance, say a fundamentalist Christian believes that the world was literally created in 7 days (I have no problem with this, even though I am a looser Christian who reads that part of the bible from the original Hebrew texts which better translate "Days" as "Periods") is confronted with the views of modern science, which hold that the universe was created over billions of years (Note: The two do not actually contradict each-other, this is just an example). I have no problem if he examines these beliefs thoroughly, along with his own, compares the evidence, questions both systems, and then still chooses his previous views, because he sees the logic as better in a way that makes sense (I've seen it done). What I do have a problem with, however, is when the man either:
A. Outright ignores the information
B. Condemns the information as blasphemy
C. Condemns the information as evidence planted by the devil
D. Forms an angry mob and attacks the person presenting the information (Personal gripe) or
E. Performs another stereotypical, close-minded response.)
 

Kollega

New member
Jun 5, 2009
5,161
0
0
Mray3460 said:
I said "reverse-engineer". That's a bit wider definition than reversing the polarity. Even if that device forces people to think rationaly and accept the truth, wouldn't it be possible to use the basic principles for creation of the perfect brainwashing device?
 

Mray3460

New member
Jul 27, 2008
437
0
0
BonsaiK said:
Mray3460 said:
Quite possibly, but a smart government keeps things like that secret. Of course rumours may be leaked as they inevitably are, so then the question becomes "do you believe the rumours"? With a lack of available evidence a person may not believe the rumours. Or they MIGHT, if their ability to believe rumours without evidence hasn't been tampered with by some new technology.
I doubt that the technology would allow people to outright believe rumors without evidence, but their new thought processes might force them to see if there is anything to the rumors (remember, they are not bound by pre-conceived notions)

BonsaiK said:
Belief is never just about evidence and hard, empirical data - nor should it be. Having belief only after the fact hampers human endeavour, because while belief can often be damaging to humans (look at the way religion is used as a rallying tool for war, for example), belief without evidence can also inspire people to great and masterful acts (look at all the great works of art and music inspired by religion).
You have a point here, but, personally, art and music aren't good enough excuses for destruction and war.

As a side note, I have no problems with religion in and of itself, it's just that so many people know next to nothing about their own religion (as they don't question what they are told about it when they are initially indoctrinated in the first place [when they are young]) that it is easy to use religion for alternative agenda (Jesus was white, Jesus was a vegetarian, Jesus hated gays, Jesus wouldn't want you to play this video game, etc.). In essence, if people, when confronted by contradictory information, examined their own beliefs, they might find out more about their argument and have their resolve strengthened rather than weakened (The entire purpose of Advocatus Diaboli)

Kollega said:
Mray3460 said:
I said "reverse-engineer". That's a bit wider definition than reversing the polarity. Even if that device forces people to think rationaly and accept the truth, wouldn't it be possible to use the basic principles for creation of the perfect brainwashing device?
For the sake of argument, lets say "No."
 

CuddlyCombine

New member
Sep 12, 2007
1,142
0
0
Mray3460 said:
What if there was a way to literally FORCE someone to acknowledge the truth or make it impossible for them to ignore or dismiss a superior argument or irrefutable evidence (I.E. the aforementioned man would find himself unable to deny that he had lost due to someone else having a superior level of skill, and that his opponent hadn't just "gotten lucky" or convince himself that he hadn't "really been trying").

For the sake of argument, lets assume the process would work something like the classic electric-chair-esk setup of the helmet and manacles: Strap someone in, throw the switch, and in 5 to 10 seconds, with no physical pain or damage of any kind, the person would be unable to deliberately remain ignorant through mental exercise, become drawn into a "group think" situation, or be indoctrinated by an ideology to the point of being unable or unwilling to disregard it when glaring, damning flaws in it are pointed out.

Initially, I thought of what an incredible world it would be if the technology were applied to everyone (No more cults, No more group think, No more bigotry, etc.) but I then thought of the human rights and free will concerns. Does someone have the right to be a bigot? An idiot? A figurative sheep? Which brings me to the questions of the poll: If this technology existed, should it be applied to the masses? Why or Why not?

Note: The technology does not and cannot target individual ideologies, or any mental processes that aren't specifically mentioned above.

Edit: As clarification, the device does not tell people what to think. It forces people to think, period. With no specific arguments, beliefs, opinions, or facts imprinted into the person's brain. Rather, it forces them to continually (even after exposure) examine their own beliefs and the beliefs of others objectively ( with no pre-conceived notions interfering with their judgment).
Interesting view. I've seen this before; a sort of simulated reality crossed with totalitarian, omnipotent control. The thing is, as you've mentioned, freedom of thought. People have the right to think; yes, even the kind folks at Westboro Baptist Church or on Fox News. They may be idiots to the majority, but they still represent a viewpoint that is, in the end, somehow constructive. The Chinese called it Yin and Yang (I'm willing to bet the farm on you being familiar with that concept) - good and evil balancing out, no matter what. The rule of chaos, unpredictable but fair (the Dark Knight ripped off Confucius, in my opinion).

Anyway, enough parentheses. We'd never be able to know such a machine existed, unless the machine itself told us it did, but then what would the point be? We'd start questioning our entire existence.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
6,132
3,706
118
Country
United States of America
"Playing God" is a red herring. First of all, it is the case that different people draw different boundaries around what they consider to be objective (as well as true.) Humanity is stunningly apt at deciding that opinions are facts as the history of Modern Western Philosophy very clearly demonstrates. But even that is somewhat beside the point: the reason why you don't want to do this is because forcing people to think differently would not just be a violation of personal autonomy but a really awesome way of provoking many unintended consequences. How do you know there aren't very adaptive reasons for people to sometimes ignore the truth? How do you know that you are actually right and that they aren't? We have in place an informal system of deciding what is and isn't true as a species, and we have gotten it wrong a stunning number of times in the past. But as many times as we've gotten it wrong, we've had the opportunity to correct ourselves because people have thought freely and against the established dogmas. Our pursuit of knowledge is a social process that gets it right by allowing individuals to get it wrong and for the many wrongs to compete with the right. It is not something that needs control.
 

gbemery

New member
Jun 27, 2009
907
0
0
No for the simple fact that it is my mind and a big fuck off to anyone who wants to change me. If you don't like it you can get the hell out of my head.

Plus then you get to the point of were the people controlling get biased towards a certain aspect of society and BAM none of us get to play games such as MW2 or Mass Effect or any other game that Fox 'News' says is corrupting our youth. We'll all be forced to play Moses and the Burning Bush. Press 'B' to hold up commandments 'X' to wander aimlessly through the desert and 'Y' to banish blasphemers to hell.
 

Diablini

New member
May 24, 2009
1,027
0
0
Ooh. Someone has been watching South Park too much. Yeah, me too.

Anyway. The human mind is a complex machine. These "gymnastics" occur everyday, like when your friend tells you how that game will suck and you're like "No dude! Ubisoft don't fail!"
And you try to ignore what he says. It's like Windows Firewall. It blocks pieces of information that might "pour' example" change Windows' look on humans. And maybe it will make it's own plan about destroying humanity. Windows is watching you... ^_^


As for that technology. Just pass every human on the planet one time. Then they will see where they are flawed or if they're a complete douche bag. I think such a humanity will be able to conquer the universe.
 

Caligulove

New member
Sep 25, 2008
3,029
0
0
Morally, it just is never good to force someone into thinking a certain way. Because you're saying that it would make people think.

People that disagree with something so much do so because they really do believe so. And belief is something that has to be proven wrong for people to think that it is not true anymore.

And for most people, that goes by the way of explaining it to them- not forcing them. Usually, the way I see this going is that force will never solve a problem like this, and generally cults and other smaller groups go by the way side over time... because they cannot come along and accept something.

It just takes a long ass time
 

Amnestic

High Priest of Haruhi
Aug 22, 2008
8,946
0
0
Mray3460 said:
Kollega said:
Mray3460 said:
I said "reverse-engineer". That's a bit wider definition than reversing the polarity. Even if that device forces people to think rationaly and accept the truth, wouldn't it be possible to use the basic principles for creation of the perfect brainwashing device?
For the sake of argument, lets say "No."
For the sake of recognising humanity's fatal flaws, I say "Yes."
 

Semitendon

New member
Aug 4, 2009
359
0
0
Mray3460 said:
A strange idea occurred to me today while thinking about human thought processes, namely about the fact that many humans, either consciously or unconsciously, do "mental gymnastics" to either ignore information directly against what they believe in, inflate their own egos, enable "group think," or to justify their own actions because it's "easier" than seeing and dealing with the truth (This is often seen in the case of cult victims, extremists, supremacists, and other deliberately ignorant or "blind" individuals)(I.E. a man believes that he is better at everything than everyone else, even though he has been beaten in a number of contests in areas that he has specifically claimed to be superior at):

What if there was a way to literally FORCE someone to acknowledge the truth or make it impossible for them to ignore or dismiss a superior argument or irrefutable evidence (I.E. the aforementioned man would find himself unable to deny that he had lost due to someone else having a superior level of skill, and that his opponent hadn't just "gotten lucky" or convince himself that he hadn't "really been trying").

For the sake of argument, lets assume the process would work something like the classic electric-chair-esk setup of the helmet and manacles: Strap someone in, throw the switch, and in 5 to 10 seconds, with no physical pain or damage of any kind, the person would be unable to deliberately remain ignorant through mental exercise, become drawn into a "group think" situation, or be indoctrinated by an ideology to the point of being unable or unwilling to disregard it when glaring, damning flaws in it are pointed out.

Initially, I thought of what an incredible world it would be if the technology were applied to everyone (No more cults, No more group think, No more bigotry, etc.) but I then thought of the human rights and free will concerns. Does someone have the right to be a bigot? An idiot? A figurative sheep? Which brings me to the questions of the poll: If this technology existed, should it be applied to the masses? Why or Why not?

Note: The technology does not and cannot target individual ideologies, or any mental processes that aren't specifically mentioned above.

Edit: As clarification, the device does not tell people what to think. It forces people to think, period. With no specific arguments, beliefs, opinions, or facts imprinted into the person's brain. Rather, it forces them to continually (even after exposure) examine their own beliefs and the beliefs of others objectively ( with no pre-conceived notions interfering with their judgment).
An interesting idea to be sure, but a machine like what you are talking about has a huge potential for abuse.

But, aside from that . . .

There is a glaring flaw in your theory. . . that the people you think are being ignorant, or in denial, actually are. To clarify, using your example, how do you know that the man wasn't really convincing himself to lose to his opponent, or that some factor was at play that really did cause him to lose, even though he was superior.

Basically, you have to assume that the way you think is right, and the way he thinks is wrong. To effectively use this general concept, you must base your ideology on an Objective view. From an Objective view, human opinion is irrelevant and is replaced by some universal constant. To my knowledge, there are only two popular universal constants. Reason and God.

If you use Reason, ( the ability to critically think, which is instilled in us by universal law) you run into the problem that not everyone uses Reason the same way. If you use God, ( a supernatural entity which has put universal laws in place, including Reason) you must then be able to agree on which God, due to the variety of world religions, actually exists. Both concepts present a difficulty that many people have problems with.

If you reject the idea of the universal constant, then you must be willing to admit the critical flaw in your plan due to a Relative view. In example, you use your machine on a person, and when the person has been adjusted, still disagrees with you. Then the person was never wrong, and neither were you, because in a Relative view, both people can be right at the same time, despite having opposing views. No doubt you have a problem with this view as well.

So, I think it would be best if we allow people to have their opinions, even if we disagree with them. And before some supposedly "clever" person decides to quote me with some smart-ass comment like, " So, we should allow everyone to have opinion, even if their opinion is to hurt others?" I will say that there would obviously have to be restictions in place in the event of harm to others, and that those restrictions would have to be examined carefully for abuse against a specific ideology.
 

Mray3460

New member
Jul 27, 2008
437
0
0
Semitendon said:
Mray3460 said:
An interesting idea to be sure, but a machine like what you are talking about has a huge potential for abuse.
For the purposes of argument (As stated in the edit and note of the OP and many times throughout the review) we're assuming that the technology cannot be used in any way other than to eliminate this single mental process.

Semitendon said:
There is a glaring flaw in your theory. . . that the people you think are being ignorant, or in denial, actually are. To clarify, using your example, how do you know that the man wasn't really convincing himself to lose to his opponent, or that some factor was at play that really did cause him to lose, even though he was superior.
In this scenario, the machine will only affect their perceptions if they really are willfully ignorant or in denial, by disabling their ability to do either. It does not replace thoughts, memories, or ideas, it simply cuts a person off from a coping mechanism that allows them to ignore contradictory information without analyzing both it and their current beliefs.
 

Nickolai77

New member
Apr 3, 2009
2,843
0
0
The reason why i am against the use of such technology is because it breaks, what i believe in, the ethical rule of consent. Unless individuals freely agree to have such technology used upon them, then forcing the use of technology on people is totally wrong. You can only infringe interfere with peoples freedom's if they are going to compromise the freedoms of others.

If one would want to create a society of perfectly rational individuals, then who says that using this technology which the OP describes is rational in the first place?