Poll: Free will, does it exist?
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Yes, it was chosen, but you missed the majority of the argument. Yes, each individual (for the most part) is free to choose whatever the hell they want. The lack of freedom in why they want what they want.katsa5 said:
The difference in opinion on this forum is a result of different people being exposed to different stimuli from which they draw different conclusions. If you were me, you would think what I do as well.
EDIT: We are free to act on our will, but we are not free to form our will, and therefore, our will is not free in the sense that it is self-determined.
If you say that you lack free will, yet you somehow maintain just such an illusion of having free will, how is this possible?Sad Robot said:
Do you mean how is it possible? If so: biochemistry. Look it up.Calhoun347 said:
If, on the other hand, you question the logic of my statement, then I can't help you because I see no fault in my logic. Just because it's counter-intuitive, doesn't mean it isn't true. Or, regarding my argument, plausible and probable.
I agree with the OP about free will, essentially in everything he said. Free will is difficult to test, since we cannot actually go back in the past and rerun time. However there are experiments that show our decision-making is not governed entirely by our conscious choices, but actually by subconscious processes and stimuli. In fact, the conscious processes of our brains seem more to rationalize that the subconscious decisions were entirely our own. As the subconscious is not within our control (by definition, if it were it would be conscious) our actions are not chosen as we think they are. They are actually predetermined by the stimuli around us and within us, and ultimately governed by the laws of physics in this universe.
Quantum physics is complicated. Probabilities rather than distinct locations for subatomic particles is just touching the surface of what it implies. It also implies the existence of the multiverse, and within it infinite parallel universes. One way of looking at this is: every instant that occurs, there are infinite different occurrences that could happen, and the precise conditions that occur within each instant are unique to each universe. Within our universe, we see probabilistic effects, yet spread across infinite universes, the effects are deterministic. It is just impossible to access the other possibilities from our universe. So we are all stuck on a single timeline, traveling along a specific path among infinite other timelines. So in a sense, something else could have happened, but not in our universe.
The implications of physics are more far-reaching than I can really comprehend, not being a physicist+philosopher myself.
Suffice it to say, our consciousness maintains that it is responsible for our decisions, when really it is a lower-level process which determines it. In that sense, our consciousness itself is more of a predetermined reaction to underlying subconscious processes, which themselves are determined by a variety of stimuli and variables, and all this is ultimately controlled by the laws of physics.
I'm not really sure what to do about the accountability thing. I guess ultimately we are all victims of the universe, and in particular the specific timeline we are set on.
Quantum physics is complicated. Probabilities rather than distinct locations for subatomic particles is just touching the surface of what it implies. It also implies the existence of the multiverse, and within it infinite parallel universes. One way of looking at this is: every instant that occurs, there are infinite different occurrences that could happen, and the precise conditions that occur within each instant are unique to each universe. Within our universe, we see probabilistic effects, yet spread across infinite universes, the effects are deterministic. It is just impossible to access the other possibilities from our universe. So we are all stuck on a single timeline, traveling along a specific path among infinite other timelines. So in a sense, something else could have happened, but not in our universe.
The implications of physics are more far-reaching than I can really comprehend, not being a physicist+philosopher myself.
Suffice it to say, our consciousness maintains that it is responsible for our decisions, when really it is a lower-level process which determines it. In that sense, our consciousness itself is more of a predetermined reaction to underlying subconscious processes, which themselves are determined by a variety of stimuli and variables, and all this is ultimately controlled by the laws of physics.
I'm not really sure what to do about the accountability thing. I guess ultimately we are all victims of the universe, and in particular the specific timeline we are set on.
Disclaimer: This post contains original ideas and speculation, and may or may not add anything insightful to this topic. The viewpoints herein are that of an atheist. It may or may not have been conceived in great haste. Some 'facts' presented may be pure speculation, dressed up.
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As I understand it, the concept of 'free will' holds no ground in reality. We humans are lumps of matter. Our consciousness is simply a function of the brain.
It seems to me that many (note: not all) proponents of the idea of free will consider the 'mind' (as a nonphysical entity) to be somehow disconnected from our physical manefestations. This allowing the mind to dismiss the laws of physics, creating 'thoughts' from thin air, and relaying these thoughts as commands to our bodies.
Preposterous notions, of course. Our thoughts, consciousness, soul, mind, whatever you'd like to call it; are logical impulses caused by the collision of particles. This, of course, is gross oversimplification, but the statement holds as fact (until we humans, perhaps, discover new facts relating to the brain, but I digress): All actions performed by us are unavoidable.
Now, the idea of free will is a romantic one - people are generally fond of being 'in charge', if you will, of their own lives. However, while the idea of no free will existing may seem nihilistic and hopeless to some, to me it simply means that one shouldn't beat oneself up about the past. This does not imply that past events can not have an impact on us, or that we should abandon all rules of society, or develop what we might call amorality.
I will expand on these thoughs, should anyone seek such expansion.
A couple of questions here in closing, for all those that believe in free will: How do you define the concept of free will?, and Where, if not for reasons explainable by physics, do your thoughts come from?
EDIT: Previous posters have expressed what I am trying to communicate more intelligently than me. Kudos to them.
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As I understand it, the concept of 'free will' holds no ground in reality. We humans are lumps of matter. Our consciousness is simply a function of the brain.
It seems to me that many (note: not all) proponents of the idea of free will consider the 'mind' (as a nonphysical entity) to be somehow disconnected from our physical manefestations. This allowing the mind to dismiss the laws of physics, creating 'thoughts' from thin air, and relaying these thoughts as commands to our bodies.
Preposterous notions, of course. Our thoughts, consciousness, soul, mind, whatever you'd like to call it; are logical impulses caused by the collision of particles. This, of course, is gross oversimplification, but the statement holds as fact (until we humans, perhaps, discover new facts relating to the brain, but I digress): All actions performed by us are unavoidable.
Now, the idea of free will is a romantic one - people are generally fond of being 'in charge', if you will, of their own lives. However, while the idea of no free will existing may seem nihilistic and hopeless to some, to me it simply means that one shouldn't beat oneself up about the past. This does not imply that past events can not have an impact on us, or that we should abandon all rules of society, or develop what we might call amorality.
I will expand on these thoughs, should anyone seek such expansion.
A couple of questions here in closing, for all those that believe in free will: How do you define the concept of free will?, and Where, if not for reasons explainable by physics, do your thoughts come from?
EDIT: Previous posters have expressed what I am trying to communicate more intelligently than me. Kudos to them.
This thread has already been over this. Just doing something random doesn't prove free will, since by necessity your actions happened due to events in the instant directly preceding it, and those events due to events in the instant prior to it, and so on since the creation of time itself. Your reaction to having a difficult and confusing philosophical concept thrust at you is to react with attempted humor and random abandon, which itself is determined by your very nature, which is determined by your upbringing, genetics, environment etc.Pegghead said:
At least that's the determinist theory. Honestly I don't think we can prove it either way.
I get what he's saying, but no. We do have ideas and beliefs that govern our actions, but that is hardly a controlling force: we still make active choices to act the ways we do. For instance, I am a Christian: I have certain beliefs and I act according to them, but I make the choice to do so. I choose to believe it all in the first place, so regardless of the fact that I allow that belief to govern the way I act, I am still allowing it to do so.
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan, Bioshock
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan, Bioshock
Brains are made up of atoms, and atoms move in predictable patterns. The individual "personality" and "free will" each person has comes from them reacting slightly differently, as stated by the chaos theory. However, the actual differences are small, and for the most part any human will act 99% the same as every other human on earth and anywhere from 65% to 98.5% the same as other creatures in the Animal Kingdom.
Really, the way humans are, put them into a room together, and you'll find that no matter the difference in interests, intelligence, or beliefs, they all tend to act similarly.
Really, the way humans are, put them into a room together, and you'll find that no matter the difference in interests, intelligence, or beliefs, they all tend to act similarly.
And my theory is that nothing is set in stone. People have the power to change themselves and the world around them. But of course people are going to act depending on their personality which in turn results from prior experiences in their up-bringing giving them varying views on the world and how to act in response to this. And yes what you said is true that peoples actions will probably have a basis on things that have happened and things which will happen i.e going out to celebrate a promotion at work or acting nervous and excited because you're about to go to a party. But the way the theory is presented, and by my understanding of the term freewill it all presents a pre-determined path wherein we cannot escape what will happen no matter what we do, that our lives have already been decided by some apparently almight force. Despite it's minor and confusing relevance to this topic (Though still apparent) I feel I must quote Carl Sagan in saying that if you want to make an apple pie from scratch you've got to make the universe first. And really nothings pre-determined, it's just determined in the intertwining actions and events of the world and all it's inhabitants. Cause and effect. But this is all just my stance on the matter of freewill and with what little experience I have in the fields of philosophy and social sciences then I'm probably not the kind of person who should come onto this thread...but I was tempted to post what I did.Calatar said:
Ol' Peggheads not as silly as you may have guessed, at least I've tried my best at an educated and mature response right? Though honestly, can't we stop thinking about the say we get in our lives and just get on with actually living them? I'm surprised more men haven't gone mad thinking about this sort of thing.
Yep. Delving into understanding the nature of reality results in a morass of principles and ideas that conflict with the common-sense view of reality we already have, and sometimes it just gets too confusing. Though it can be extremely interesting to explore it once in a while, I prefer to live my life with the assumption that I can control it. Its easier to comprehend, and it doesn't result in the complicated no-responsibility factor that many think determinism implies. I'm not going to let somebody off the hook for doing something mean just because it was inevitable.Pegghead said:
In short: thought experiments =/= way of life. As much of a cop-out as that is.
Everything we do, we do for a reason. In that way, we are not free, we are controlled by the reasons for our actions - what appears like a choice can only have one outcome. Even if you do something completely random, explicitly to prove you are not controlled by needing a reason to do things, there is a reason for that too: to prove that you are not controlled by needing a reason to do things.
And frankly, that's the only logical explanation. To suggest we are not controlled by reasons for our actions is to suggest that causes and effects aren't necessarily related - that "2 + 2 = whatever it feels like".
But, as long as we can't predict human behavior, the fact that free will doesn't exist does not even remotely matter, because it doesn't change anything.
And frankly, that's the only logical explanation. To suggest we are not controlled by reasons for our actions is to suggest that causes and effects aren't necessarily related - that "2 + 2 = whatever it feels like".
But, as long as we can't predict human behavior, the fact that free will doesn't exist does not even remotely matter, because it doesn't change anything.
If you feel you have to push yourself to understand something that could only hinder - never enchance - you, then perhaps you don't have free will, because you feel it is necessary to constrain yourself in such a manner. But I... Well, I won't be convinced. Not out of a stubborn attitude, mind you. Heh, that would be work. My perspective on the matter is to find this all a bit funny, you see.randomsix said:
Take it from my position, for a moment. Those people who claim they have no free will, aspiring to be...what? Cogs in a wheel? Effectively, a society IS such that has a whole bunch of gears working together as akin to a machine, but no rule says you can't more. You're not obligated and you're not forced. The only one who can remove that colorful free will is the psyche that claims it doesn't exist and you just have to dance to the same beat.
Even if the analogy is a bit off, the point is that anyone choosing a particular path because they think there's no choice - Heh, like this one. - is the only sort of person that could lack free will. The rest who don't exercise it merely forgot. I have to laugh just a little, because it's like not believing in ghosts, aliens, or god. People do this all the time and I just wonder..."What happens if they're real?". What happens if free will is real and you didn't believe?