Poll: Friendship between Men and Women or The Ladder Theory

[the Dept of Science]

"Ladder theory"? What the hell do these people thing peoples brains work like, a leaderboard?

When it comes to relationships, there is only one important thing you need to consider: attraction. Everything else is either an application of attraction or not important when considering relationships.
A relationship happens when 2 people are attracted to teach other, simple as that.
A friendship happens when 2 people have a connection but no attraction.

I know it sounds like a cliche (the following views are massive generalisations), but women and men are attracted to different things, for various societal and evolutionary reasons. Men will decide if he wants to have sex with a girl mainly on appearance. Women on the other hand also take into account a mans "vibe" (sexual confidence, ability to sexually escalate etc.). Therefore a woman won't be attracted to a man unless he demonstrates his sexuality to her.
In other words, the only female friends that I wouldn't have sex with* are the not physically attractive ones.

*the test being that if they were to lie down on a bed and say "look, I'm feeling really horny at the moment, and just need someone to have sex with. It will be totally casually and won't affect our friendship in the long term. I won't tell anyone about it, so you have nothing to lose if it goes wrong"

What I would say though is that there is some confusion here about the exact reason why I would be friends with girls that I also want to have sex with.
Lets say I have a really rich friend. I'm friends with him because we get on really well, but I occaisinally think that it would be really cool if he got me something expensive. Lets say that one day, he finally offers to buy me £500 guitar. It would be wrong to say that I was friends with him because I thought he might buy me something expensive. Using the same logic, just because I want to have sex with a girl doesn't mean that I can have a fulfilling friendship with her.

 

[baddude1337]

Well my best friend is a girl and I don't even think of her in that way so it's total BS.

Sorry to ask, but why not?

She's your best friend, so I assume you communicate very well, and enjoy spending time together. That's what you should have in a relationship isn't it?

It's a bit personal to ask, I know, but I'm facing a similar problem right now. I'd like the view of the opposite side

That is what you have in a relationship, but what you have in one that you don't have in a friendship is sex and physical attraction. I know she is very attractive and did like her once, but as a good friend of mine I just don't see her that way, its just more talking and spending time together and nothing physical.

I did have a best friend several years ago that I did really like A LOT, even when I had a girl friend at the time. If you do like your friend I'd look for any signs to show that he/she likes you back, and if you have a very strong friendship just ask her/him about it, if you are rejected then at least you can remain good friends.

I already did, and I'm awaiting the fall out. I just can't work out the difference between the best friend who you find attractive, and then the boy/girlfriend.

It just seems weird to me. You have this person who you spend a lot of time with, and share some fairly deep and personal things, and then go have a relationship with someone else. What would that other person think? How would you explain it? I talk to this person but make out with you. I share my mind with this person, but you get my body.

Perhaps it's the difference between best and close friend. Maybe I'm focused too much on the mind. To me, my girl friend should also be my best friend. I just don't understand how any other way can work.

Bah, my robot brain is malfunctioning again. Does not compute. Error. Redofromstart.

I'll agree it is definitely a fine line between best friend and someone you like/love. I can understand where your coming from as I went out with someone I hardly knew even though I fancied my best friend for about 2 years. Ultimately though I think an intimate relationship with a best friend is not worth any fall out unless you both feel there is truly something there. I hope it all works out for you.

 

[Haukur Isleifsson]

I call bullshit. And calling it a theory is insulting to anything that truly has earned it's place as such.

I have many female friends that I would not fuck. Not that they are unattractive. Just that they are "just" my friends. Then there are those that I consider my friends but given the right circumstances I would indeed fuck. And then there are those that I don't know (or hate for that matter) and would still really want to fuck them.

And I really can't see a reason this would be any different with people who happen to lack exterior genitalia.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

I havn't had a single girl best friend i havn't ended up dating. Im sure this is bull but as far as my personality goes the idea that it eventually leads to a relationship seems pretty sound.

 

[thylasos]

Both depressing, and complete bull.

The world's not that cruel, even if it seems like that sometimes.

Also: women are people. Welcome to that realisation.

 

[kickyourass]

This theory is stupid. Boiling down complex emotions based around sex and friendship into such a plain, basic way does not work.

Ohh goddamn it, it seems that whenever I find an interesting thread like this someone else has already summarized most of my thoughts on the topic.

I'll just add that, who ever thought up this thing seems to have no working knowledge of how real life humans actually work.

 

[phelan511]

That's bullshit.
I have tons of female friends whom I would not like to have sex with.

Just curious, but does that mean those females fall down further on your "ladder" ?

i dont think you quite get it. i have a good many of very attractive female friends. but i wouldnt want to have sex with them. mostly because i have gotten close to them on a platonic level. this ladder theory is simply that. a theory. seems like a good deal of gross generalization on the average male behavior. im sure this guy is the same way.

 

[Xanadu84]

"The theory states that men have a sliding scale (or ladder) ranking every woman they meet on how much they would like to have sex with her. Women have two ladders for ranking men they find sexually attractive and men they consider friends. Since men have only one ladder, the theory states that heterosexual men and women can never be friends."

First sentence is an unsupported, anecdotal theory that MAY have merit, but implies that there is only one ladder. I guarantee you that I have a friends ladder for females that has personal value, including for women whom I have absolutely 0 interest in sleeping with. This includes non-family member females. I can't speak on the womens ladders, but I see no supporting evidence. The idea that men and women can't be friends because they have a different number of ladders is non-sequitar.

Most importantly, there is this...

"There is no clinical or scientific evidence to support Ladder Theory. Lynn claims that the theory is "based upon many years of sociological field testing." Without data, however, this claim most likely refers to personal and anecdotal experience."

In other words, he made shit up. You cannot trust him as a scientist, only as a random dude musing about life.

 

[Trogdor1138]

No, it's absolute bullshit to me. Maybe some people operate on that level but I don't know anybody that does personally.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

..Yeah, the "theory" is bullshit. I have plenty of female friends, and yet only one I have ever considered a romantic relationship with.

Worthless "theory" is worthless.

 

[Lavi]

This theory is automatically fucked over because this does not account for QUILTBAG. It works only for straight women and men and makes little sense for reality.

 

[WingedIncubus]

Both depressing, and complete bull.

The world's not that cruel, even if it seems like that sometimes.

Also: women are people. Welcome to that realisation.

Women are animals, driven by instinctive pulsions and a desire to get reproduced, just like we men are. We are animals, welcome to that realisation. That we have a cerebral cortex capable of abstract thought, rationalization, and moral self-control doesn't fundamentally make us any different from the chimps in your city's zoo. We are not God's special little chosen people.

And yes, it is a cruel, selfish endeavor. Hearts get broken, people suffer, people lie and cheat, and in extreme cases people kill or kill themselves because this fundamental pulsion gets unfulfilled, betrayed, frustrated, or misunderstood. Quite a few people die alone, their genes never been passed for evermore, because they fail to reproduce. We are all here because, over the course of dozens of generation, a male and female have been capable to pass off their genes to the next generation, one way or another. I let your imagination wander on how, sometimes, it wasn't made with the woman's consent being sought.

Yeah, the ladder theory is bullshit, because it doesn't take "social proofing" into account. Having female friends cooperating with you is useful for a male, from a reproductive point of view, because a) they can introduce you to eventual partners and become accomplices in matching you up with them, b) the more attractive they are, the more likely other women will see you as a potential mate because it can pass as pre-selection, and c) it helps create a social network to help support one another in times of crisis, and women are simply better at it than we men are.

However, the ladder theory has one single, accidental benefit: While wrong on so many levels, it gets some things right. It opens the eyes that the world is not Hollywood rose-tainted, and that being a needy, dependent, "nice guy" schmuck who believes in fairy tales will not get you girls, that as males we have to exhibit confidence and some level of aggressiveness to assume our wants and approach women, in other words "play our role". It's not nice, it's not rosy, it's not fair, it's not equal-opportunity, but that's the role assigned to us. Look at every single male in species of the animal world, and you'll find we, the Homo Sapiens Sapiens males, and especially the Western world ones, are the only one who relentlessly question what being a male entails.

And just imagine, the male praying mantis gets reproduced by getting his head chewed and eaten off by his female during intercourse! It's certainly not fair for him in comparison to us, don't you think?

 

[Continuity]

So does having sexual desire for someone, to any degree, rule out friendship? Is that what this is about?

Bisexuals must have it pretty tough then..

 

[WingedIncubus]

So does having sexual desire for someone, to any degree, rule out friendship? Is that what this is about?

Bisexuals must have it pretty tough then..

Why? Bisexuals screw and have friends like anyone else. The major problem is the emotional investment that sex entails, if only because of the reproduction potential, the jealousy, the sheer hormonal and emotional releases, and the vulnerability sex brings. It is simply qualitatively different from "friends" and from "lovers".

 

[Continuity]

So does having sexual desire for someone, to any degree, rule out friendship? Is that what this is about?

Bisexuals must have it pretty tough then..

Why? Bisexuals screw and have friends like anyone else. The major problem is the emotional investment that sex entails, if only because of the reproduction potential, the jealousy, the sheer hormonal and emotional releases, and the vulnerability sex brings. It is simply qualitatively different from "friends" and from "lovers".

Yes... o.0

You obviously missed the irony in my post there.

 

[WingedIncubus]

So does having sexual desire for someone, to any degree, rule out friendship? Is that what this is about?

Bisexuals must have it pretty tough then..

Why? Bisexuals screw and have friends like anyone else. The major problem is the emotional investment that sex entails, if only because of the reproduction potential, the jealousy, the sheer hormonal and emotional releases, and the vulnerability sex brings. It is simply qualitatively different from "friends" and from "lovers".

Yes... o.0

You obviously missed the irony in my post there.

I admit I did not detect the irony in your post, my sarcam-o-meter being still at the repairshop. <_<

 

[CarpathianMuffin]

I tend to judge women based on how friendly and intelligent they are, more than anything. If she doesn't have the brains, then I won't find her attractive at all. So... I suppose you could say that it's the ladder theory, just in another respect.

In other words, I don't think that all men judge women simply based on how likely they'd be to sex 'em up. It just doesn't work like that.