Poll: Fun control

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Skeleon

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Nov 2, 2007
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Apart from people whose job has to do with weapons (military, police, watchmen, hunters and so on) I see no reason for any civilian to own a gun. Non-lethal stuff, sure, go right ahead. Stock-pile it, if you feel the need for protection.
As for shooting for sports, I don't see any reason why we can't just lock our guns up at the shooting range.
You can probably tell I'm very contra weapons.
 

JRslinger

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Nov 12, 2008
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CargoHold said:
You made a good point, though I'd be interested to see all of the stats. The stats that I've seen have generally shown a definite positive correlation between gun-related homocides and levels of gun ownership.
America has a higher rate of gun ownership and a higher rate of gun crime/murder than western European countries. However we must remember that correlation doesn't prove causation. Upon closer examination we see several important facts, 1. There are states with high rates of gun ownership and low amounts of gun crime. This shows that a high rate of gun ownership doesn't necessarily mean a lot of gun crime. 2. Most of these gun murders happen in the ghettos of big cities where gangs and criminals are the most concentrated. 3. The rates of both gun crime and violent crime were lower in 1960 when gun laws were looser. http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

4. There are cities, states and nations where strict gun laws exist alongside high rates of gun crime.

These facts give good reason to doubt the effectiveness of gun control laws and suggest that factors other than gun laws/legal availability are the biggest determining factors regarding gun crime.

I speculate that the biggest factor is culture. Where criminal cultures are strongest, violence is the highest.


CargoHold said:
The England handgun law- Only 0.1% of the population had handguns. Gun crime can increase because of any number of factors; economic factors, a larger variety of guns, a poor presence of authorities (Mexico?). Hell, you keep all factors constant and just an increase in population alone will increase gun crime. As it is, gun crime in England has decreased in the period between 2005 and 2006 anyway.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be implying that every criminal who wants a gun will be able to get one illegally anyway. The US surely has good enough law enforcement to have some impact on the black market?
If I thought gun control was effective at disarming criminals I'd support it. For the facts I listed above, plus the many cases where governments used civilian disarmament to facilitate their evil acts I oppose gun control.
 

CargoHold

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Sep 16, 2009
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Swollen Goat said:
As for the benefits outweighing the risks, well...I don't think there's really any way to say for sure without actually doing the experiment and crunching the crime rate data. With our current gun policy, I'd be curious to know how many criminals are dissuaded from acting due to the possibility of getting shot during their crime.
That'd be interesting, but my guess would be not many. Just a guess though- shall we take to the rougher parts of cities late at night with a tally?

Swollen Goat said:
As for the 'cons of gunlessness'-I'm going to play a little bit of devil's advocate here and bring up the idea that part of the reason for the right to bear arms is to allow the people a fighting chance at an unjust government. In reality, I don't see the population of the US having a snowball's chance in Hades if our government suddenly goes fascist, no matter how many guns we get so it's a moot point. But without joe citizen's firearms, would the government lean (even more) towards becoming a totalitarian state?
I doubt it, but again, it's just a guess as to something we can only speculate on. That and Nineteen Eighty-Four has probably jaded me. Interesting notion though, I'd never thought of it before.

Swollen Goat said:
I guess it boils down to the fact that I'd rather be able to live my life however I choose and take the risk of being gunned down, crippled by a meth-head, or some other such tragedy than be safe in a world where I'm told what I can and can't have. Your stance is also a noble one-security is a admirable thing to place atop your list of priorities, it's just not atop mine.

Also, please don't cry! I'm enjoying your well thought out posts.
And I guess that's where the gun law debate starts and where it ends, with personal preference. Unless somemone does some serious number crunching and bases what's best for everyone on that, I think personal preferences are the only conclusion we can find with this. I think I'm just jaded and see most of the people out there as irresponsible, and as such adopt a you-don't-give-little-kids-firelighters-and-then-tell-them-not-to-use-them mentality.

I blame my slightly misanthropic attitude on my neighbour, who owns a V8 for the SOLE purpose of revving it for up to an hour in his driveway at 6am and 11pm. WITHOUT GOING ANYWHEE. And as an ex-speed addict and active participant in domestic disputes, there's no way I'd give him a gun. And I feel safer knowing that he probably doesn't have one [Australia, whoo]. This is all personal experience and has nothing/little to do with the main issue though.

Also I just needed to rant about my neighbour.
 

Kenjitsuka

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Sep 10, 2009
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IdealistCommi said:
Even if someone has a criminal record, they'll will still get their hands on guns from runners and gangs. We should just take out the middle man and let every all citezins above 18 buy and own a gun.
MANDATORY guns... now THAT would be interesting!
Would you mug someone when you know 100% he is packing the same heat as you?
Or try to rob a bank when all the customers could give you a headshot out of spite for taking up their time?

We could get free gun training with the money we'd be saving in no longer having to employ cops.
 

CargoHold

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Sep 16, 2009
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Swollen Goat said:
CargoHold said:
Swollen Goat said:
As for the benefits outweighing the risks, well...I don't think there's really any way to say for sure without actually doing the experiment and crunching the crime rate data. With our current gun policy, I'd be curious to know how many criminals are dissuaded from acting due to the possibility of getting shot during their crime.
That'd be interesting, but my guess would be not many. Just a guess though- shall we take to the rougher parts of cities late at night with a tally?
Lol, sure! I'll drive, you can do the polling!
CargoHold said:
And I guess that's where the gun law debate starts and where it ends, with personal preference.
Yeah, but it was fun to discuss though!
"Excuse me, sir, do you have a couple of minutes for a quick poll about--" *Shot in face*
 

Kollega

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Jun 5, 2009
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Non-lethal weapons only. But there should be stuff better than just tasers and mace. How about net guns?

Or just do it Ratchet & Clank-style and sell rocket launchers in cornerstores. Great fun.
 

Souplex

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Jul 29, 2008
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quack35 said:
What's the point of even owning a gun?

Let's be honest, how many people do you shoot per day?
I don't believe this but some people believe the fact that they own a gun acts as a deterrent sort of like the cold war strategy.
 

Composer

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Aug 3, 2009
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Xero Scythe said:
TheLoveRat said:
Dude, guns aren't cool...fistfights are the way to go my friend.
can't bring a fist to a gunfight... it gets shot full of more holes than swiss cheese.
cant bring a gun to a fistfight....oh wait.
ps plz tell me if someone ninja'd me
 

Death on Trapezoids

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Nov 19, 2009
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I really don't care about the 5 day waiting period and background check.
What I want is just that the right for the individual, sane citizen to own guns without enough taxes to make a politician shudder to be undisputed.
 

RatRace123

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Dec 1, 2009
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I'm thinking if you've been diagnosed, or you seem to have a predisposition to violence, or you're a criminal, you should probably lose your second amendment right.
 

Ham_authority95

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Dec 8, 2009
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IF you have a mental illness or criminal history, you shouldn't be allowed gun, unless you can prove your innocence/sanity.


Aside from that, I don't really give a fuck whether you have a gun/weapon or not, so long as you don't use it against me without a good reason....
 

Trivun

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Dec 13, 2008
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The right to bear arms is much, much stupider than the right to arm bears.

My reasoning is that guns are dangerous, and guns should not be allowed except in special cases (i.e. military, police, and private security firms). If you want to go to a shooting range and fire an air rifle or a pistol then fine, but you shouldn't be allowed to own your own gun. I've been to shooting ranges before and enjoyed target shooting, it's a fun pastime. But I don't own a gun, and don't wish to. And I think it's stupid that people think they should be allowed to have a gun. They claim that it's needed for self defence. But you aren't allowed to carry a knife around, even for self defence, so why should you be able to carry a gun? As for within your own home, there are plenty of things you can do to ensure your own safety. You don't need a gun.

So yeah, that sums up my view. Guns are bad. They shouldn't be allowed. Except bears. Bears can have their own armoury if they want :)
 

mrbones228

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Dec 13, 2009
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Hey guess what I live in Australia and we can't get guns (unless we can prove we need one ie. framer to protect his livestock from preditors.)and since no one has a gun no one needs a gun to counter the other guys gun.
 

Souplex

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Jul 29, 2008
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Trivun said:
The right to bear arms is much, much stupider than the right to arm bears.

My reasoning is that guns are dangerous, and guns should not be allowed except in special cases (i.e. military, police, and private security firms). If you want to go to a shooting range and fire an air rifle or a pistol then fine, but you shouldn't be allowed to own your own gun. I've been to shooting ranges before and enjoyed target shooting, it's a fun pastime. But I don't own a gun, and don't wish to. And I think it's stupid that people think they should be allowed to have a gun. They claim that it's needed for self defence. But you aren't allowed to carry a knife around, even for self defence, so why should you be able to carry a gun? As for within your own home, there are plenty of things you can do to ensure your own safety. You don't need a gun.

So yeah, that sums up my view. Guns are bad. They shouldn't be allowed. Except bears. Bears can have their own armoury if they want :)
Bears are deadly enough without guns. Bears are godless killing machines.
 

VicunaBlue

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Feb 8, 2009
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All the arguments against gun control rvolve around the point "We don't need that right". However, Do we really need the right to print what we want? To say what we want? I always envisioned america as someplace where you had more than you needed...
 

Nicolai

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Jan 13, 2009
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Tears of Blood said:
I did a presentation on this for Sociology class.

Basically, I was pretty biased, because if you do the reasearch, you learn that areas that impose more gun control laws end up with not just more homicides via firearm, but homicides in general! It's completely crazy.
I challenge that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate shows the death rates across countries.

The US has nearly double that of any other country, but we're not controlling for biases here like degrees of urbanisation, which increases availability of otherwise difficult items like weapons, which leads to situations like Brazil's statistics being even higher than America's.

It is interesting to take the UK as a comparative case study. Even in Northern Ireland, a region fraught with Civil war and violence over the statistical period, America had nearly twice the gun deaths per capita and that region can be seen as anomalous given the remarkably low figures of at least twenty times lower than the US death rate in England, Scotland and Wales, which should be subject to the same laws.

I also note that these statistics: http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/death_stats.html show 2.7% of Firearm deaths are due to Accidental Discharge, that's one in every 37 gun deaths, of which there are 28,663 in that survey. What that tells me is there are many people in the US who are not educated properly to deal with guns, yet have them anyway.

I understand the US is not like every other country on the planet, most countries do not have anything like the level of military service the US does, where the combined Armed Forces and Reserves, being people trained as military and able to potentially access military grade resources is 2,295,000 or one in every 90 people of age to serve (between 18 and 64 to use easily accessible demographic data) is in some form of active military service. This does not account for those who have left service.

Compare this once again to Britain, which has roughly a tenth the size of the armed forces (around 225,000), but very close to 1/5 the population, meaning roughly for every British soldier there are two US ones. So for every two Americans trained to use guns, there is one Brit. Perhaps this has something to do with the relative powers of the Gun lobbies and the second amendment and also why even in the worst parts of Britain, they still can not reach the levels of gun related violence the US can. Clearly, there must be some difference between the two and Gun Control being in one country, but not the other is a strong candidate for a reason. It doesn't statistically bear out, but it's why many people are in favour of it, becuase of the underlying factors in a society which pushes for gun control restraining the society's use of weapons. Even Canada, the country closest to the US, both geographically and in mindset only has 40% of the gun related death.

Accidents happen and the more available guns are, the more likely they are to be used to resolve something which might not have otherwise resulted in death. Yes, criminals are going to use guns, just like they're going to break into your house. A determined enough criminal will not be stopped by a lock on a door in the same way they won't avoid using illegal guns. A lock on a door is a mild deterrent so random people have to go to effort to commit a crime, the same ideology applies to gun control, make it more of an effort to get guns and there are less guns.
 

Souplex

Souplex Killsplosion Awesomegasm
Jul 29, 2008
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VicunaBlue said:
All the arguments against gun control revolve around the point "We don't need that right". However, Do we really need the right to print what we want? To say what we want? I always envisioned america as someplace where you had more than you needed...
I am fairly certain that the main argument is that guns can only be used to harm.
 

Vault boy Eddie

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Feb 18, 2009
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I recently posted a quote from the book Generation Kill in which Sgt. Colbert says "Those who can't kill will always be subject to those who can." The problem isin't civilians with guns, cause at least where I live, you are scrutinized for every bullet you buy. The problem is how easy it is for the criminal element to get guns, while a civvie has to go through hell to own a semi auto rifle, a criminal can get a fully auto one in the street for a few hundred bucks with no background check.