Poll: Gender recognition offence

[elvor0]

Okay, I'm going to zip up my flame suit, pop some med-x and hurl myself headlong into the fire:

whole lot of off topic

Does any of that relate to this thread though? I don't think we're talking about people who identify as bats, just the usual male-female thing.

Not really, OP was talking about non-binary genderism, not just male/female.

I find it difficult to understand how I should find out that someone who has the physical aspects of a woman Is gender fluid/non-binary.

Op is talking about extreme views/reactions on that matter. I'm addressing the extreme and my own struggles to understand the vast majority of that area. First bit is more sexuality which is /kind of/ off topic I'll admit, but it ties into my struggling getting my head round it and the two are inexorably linked.

You can stick to male/female, I'm just moving to different areas of the scope the OP is talking about, as I /personally/ find male/female quite acceptable and have had no problems in my admittedly few encounters with those that defined themselves as the opposite gender in a purely binary matter. People want to stick to just male/female discussion that's fine, but I feel the OP most definitely encompasses my post too.[/quote]

 

[Dr. Crawver]

Well I can't speak to most of this on account of the fact the internet has not come to an agreement of what most of these terms mean, but I can state that gender-fluidity is very much not a thing despite what some people may tell themselves. It's a physically impossible state of the mind remapping itself on a whim that if it was real would be tantamount to an extreme bipolar disorder that would make the person in question unable to properly think (or function in society) and would require near constant supervision to make sure they don't harm themselves in the same way schizophrenics do (having a psychology teacher who detests gender ideologies who make things up was a fun semester).

Basically someone claiming to be gender fluid is looking for attention. Outside of that as I said before I can't really comment on the matter since the people claiming to be "experts" (on the internet of course) haven't come to anything close to a consensus on what these terms even mean.

Yeah, pretty much what I'm thinking. Knowing you're born as the wrong gender is one thing. But being in a state where you're fine with it at one time, then not at another is just simply not right. The biggest problem with it is everyone doesn't know what it's like to be the other gender. I'm not even sure full post op trans people really do. So the idea that someone will know what it's like to just be both and swap between the two seemingly at will is impossible.

 

[MrFalconfly]

I don't see a reason that one needs a special designation for people that are not part of the 0.3% (rough estimate) transgendered individuals.

Because the only other option is to describe cisgendered people as "normal," which implies being transgendered isn't normal. That's a bad misstep to make, because being transgendered is perfectly normal; it's a thing that happens to people all the time. There's no reason why we can't identify cisgendered people according to their own traits rather than by making inherently denigrating comparisons to people who aren't cisgendered.

Well strictly speaking, trans people AREN'T normal.

They don't fall within the main bulk of the normal distribution curve (the boring 70% that makes up the population of our planet. You know, the people who wear dull clothes, and have dull hobbies, and are generally dull. Being "normal" just means you are dull).

However this is merely statistics, and doesn't in any way say anything about them as people.

Oh god, you understand what the "Normal" actually means, in all of its connotations. Take me now.

Hold your horses mate

I don't want you to waste money on a plane ticket from Canada to Denmark, just because I said something vaguely reasonable on an internet forum.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

If you look like a woman and you snap at the sound of someone even considering that you are indeed a woman? and then demanding respect afterwards? I don't get it.

It's called "people have bad days and aren't perfectly rational robots".

And everybody deserves a baseline level of respect.

 

[springheeljack]

Alright people,

We've had the entire tumblr/facebook/reddit/internet gender thing going for a while and people feel they should be accepted or have become more open about their newfangled gender roles.

Even if I were to accept a thing such as genderfluid-non binary-preffered pronouns they/them.
(something I recently encountered in a person)


I find it difficult to understand how I should find out that someone who has the physical aspects and aesthetic of a female (Breasts,bodily shape,wears makeup,dresses feminine)
Is gender fluid/non-binary.

Let alone accept that I should be shamed and hated for reffering to them as a "she".


Aside from that I would like to ask what you guys think of this so called they/them pronoun, to me that feels like a ridiculous way to refer to a singular person, could they not have chosen a better form for it?




Stuff like this absolutely drives me away from accepting these kind of people as normal.

Well first thing you should do is just treat them as normal people. And believe me they will let you know what they want to be called. Also you should be at least a little courteous and refer them by the pronouns that they wish to be used. If you dont want to do that for whatever reason just use their name

 

[JimB]

Before I begin, I must ask, does anyone know the proper procedure to report broken links in the quote notifications I've been receiving? Any assistance is appreciated.

It is purely on the basis that someone demands of me that I accept someone else's subjective perception that I immediately refuse to do so.

So...spite, then? I mean, I know you say you aren't capable of spite in this instance, but it sounds very much like your answer is that you refuse to call people what they want to be called just to piss them off.

I have other experiences that resonate strongly with what you say, but I have not the inclination to share them.

Not enough so that you will call someone with a vagina "he" if he asks for it, though? Okay.

EDIT: You know what? Never mind. I feel any further discussion is futile, and those two quotes are why.

 

[Callate]

snip

If someone has the physical features and external care of their sex it is not wrong to call them such

...This poll would be much clearer if you took out that "not".

I don't appreciate anyone flying off the handle if someone mis-identifies their chosen gender the first time, but after a clarification, identifying them as they choose is just a matter of respect.

 

[happyninja42]

If you look like a woman and you snap at the sound of someone even considering that you are indeed a woman? and then demanding respect afterwards? I don't get it.

It's called "people have bad days and aren't perfectly rational robots".

And everybody deserves a baseline level of respect.

Very true, that includes the people who are making the mistake. I wouldn't consider it respectful to snap at them for making an honest mistake. If it's intentional then yeah sure, give them attitude back, but respect the other person too, and respect the fact that it might not be 100% apparent by looking at you what gender you wish to be identified as.

 

[McElroy]

This one's easy: speak a language that doesn't have gendered pronouns. Then a person can do what it wants.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

I think the op would be better served to reword their question, as it obviously has invited a lot of attack on their character for the way they worded the question. They deserved it though, they were totally asking for people to attack them as a person. /sarcasm

Stuff like this absolutely drives me away from accepting these kind of people as normal.

When he makes statements like that, suggesting how one person upsetting him is going to change how he acts towards a bunch of other people who have nothing to do with it, he rightly deserves to be called on it.

"Someone was mean to me so I'm not accepting any of those people!" is a rather awful stance. It suggests he thinks how they deserve to be treated depends completely on his personal feelings.

 

[veloper]

If anyone complains about a "he" that would be a "she", then they are intruding on a conversation, or are at the very least, left out already.

There is this word "you". That's what we call you. Not he/she/they/it/nonsense.

This complaint is so stupid, they didn't even think of worrying about Sir/madam, but went for he/she.

 

[Areloch]

I move that we replace all pronouns with the sassy "Byatch"

"Hey, byatch!"

"Look at that byatch!"

"Byatch's crazy!"

Problem solved. Not only does this remove gendered pronouns, it also would make everyone sound hilarious.

 

[9tailedflame]

I think equal rights are great.

Being called by the pronouns and gendered nouns you identify yourself as is a right you as a cis person enjoy, MHR. I think if you refuse to treat trans people with the same courtesy, then your claim of supporting equal rights is dubious.

I hear stories that make it hard for me to get on board with this pronoun thing, like when someone says 'I'm a woman, but I identify as a man, yet I still dress like a woman and you have to use male pronouns' and it's like come on, you're not making this easy for us!

In that story, the person explicitly told you what pronouns he wants you to use. What specifically is so hard about that?

If you look like a woman and you snap at the sound of someone even considering that you are indeed a woman?

Politrukk, I think you are making the mistake of assuming everything going on in the trans person's life is about you. Live a lifetime of people calling you the wrong name, as well as a lifetime of a shrinking but aggressively assholish percentage of the population insisting that they have a greater right to tell you who you are than you have to declare who you are, and see if you don't get a little touchy about it.

Sucks that someone snaps at you for the bad day (or bad life) they've had up to this point, but my suggestion would be to be at least as tough as you want the trans person to be; to accept that they made a mistake and to forgive them for it.

They don't have a right to get mad at you for that.

Anyone has a right to feel anything they want to feel. You do not get to dictate the contents of someone's heart and mind to them, 9tailedflame.

The only thing that bothers me about they/them is that it also implies plurality.

Words do not have inherent meanings. They only mean what we as a culture agree to let them mean. It seems reasonably clear from context that no one in that instance could have heard you call that person "they" and think you were talking about multiple individuals, so what's the problem here?

If that person gets pissed off at me and says "Excuse my I'm a tri-gendered pyrofox," I will laugh and walk away and never speak to them again.

That will teach that imaginary person not to submit to your dominant right to decide what gender they are. Depriving them of your presence will be a pain they'll regret for the rest of their lives.

...so, uh, should I be offended people still call me young lady on occasion?

Up to you. I'm a bit confused by the question, honestly. Do you want to be offended, or are you asking if there's some overarching global authority that dictates what your emotional responses are required to be, or what?

Someone wants to be known as non-binary? No thanks, I'm not putting up with that.

Can you please explain what exactly us such a burden about referring to a person the way they ask you to refer to them? What specific effort does it cost you?

Do we really need a special designation for not being transgender?

Who's "we?" I don't see why there's anything wrong with having a word to describe a condition of being.

Ok, sure, they have the right to be mad, but you have no way of knowing someone's gender identity just by looking at them, so guessing wrong isn't something you can be blamed for. You didn't actually do anything wrong, and as such, you don't deserve to be yelled at or anything.

 

[ScaredIndie]

Obviously if you do not know better there is a certain level of assumption that goes into human interaction.

If someone has a full beard and gets mad at you for calling them a he then that person is an irrational moron.

If said person politely asks you to call her a she and you don't then you are an asshole.

I would have voted for "Tumblr..." but it didn't say "fuck off tumblr" so I just voted seriously.

 

[Drops a Sweet Katana]

I think this is one of those things that people really shouldn't get worked up about. If someone misgenders you, it's not likely malicious and was probably an honest mistake since the english language isn't really equipped to deal with the idea of sex and gender being two different things, as well as the glut of pronoun sets that entails. That person should try their best to accommodate, but it's not easy working a completely new set of pronouns into your vocabulary so they're liable to make more mistakes. Frankly, I think it's more fuss than it's worth. I understand that people may not identify with the current set of pronouns, but it really isn't worth making a huge fuss if someone makes a mistake or just uses 'they' and whatnot to refer to you in a gender neutral fashion.

 

[GalanDun]

Someone wants to be known as non-binary? No thanks, I'm not putting up with that.

Can you please explain what exactly is such a burden about referring to a person the way they ask you to refer to them? What specific effort does it cost you?

Because science doesn't support the idea of non-binary genders. At most, you could possibly argue there are three. But even that's stretching quite a bit. And as a man of science, I don't support anything that directly contradicts it. Same reason I don't tolerate creationism or intelligent design.
Plus, (And this is somewhat debatable) it's possible non-binaryism and transgenderism are just a mis-identified mental illnesses, and as long as that possibility exists, I don't want to possibly be complicit in enabling someones mental illness.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Someone wants to be known as non-binary? No thanks, I'm not putting up with that.

Can you please explain what exactly is such a burden about referring to a person the way they ask you to refer to them? What specific effort does it cost you?

Because science doesn't support the idea of non-binary genders. At most, you could possibly argue there are three. But even that's stretching quite a bit. And as a man of science, I don't support anything that directly contradicts it. Same reason I don't tolerate creationism or intelligent design.
Plus, (And this is somewhat debatable) it's possible non-binaryism and transgenderism are just a mis-identified mental illnesses, and as long as that possibility exists, I don't want to possibly be complicit in enabling someones mental illness.

Yeah all the same reasons people deny the big bang. Transgenderism was classified as a mental illness and they changed their minds. Wanna know why? THEY STUDIED AND LEARNED BETTER!!!

Reading the last two pages have contained some of the most horrific transphobia I've ever seen. If you can't treat someone else with respect because they're different, then don't expect them to treat you with any respect. That's correct, it's polite, and professional. If you shit on a trans person for being trans, you're a fucking jerk, no question. That applies to people objectively in general. Period. You can't respect a person for feeling different? You demand they shut up to make you happy? Shut the fuck up. It's called being polite, fucking do it, because if you don't you're the kind of person who has no place in society. Because you can't fucking treat others with the same respect you fucking demand.

Also next time I hear "Genderfluid attack helicopter" Fuck you, you're the opposite gender as you present, because you're a disrespectful, selfish asshole! No questions! You can't respect another person, so fuck you.

** All statements of "you" here are general application, they only apply if you are as a person are a disrespectful shit ****.

Treat people right is all I'm saying, if you the person reading this can't do that, then don't expect to be treated right in return. That is pretty simple manners. If you don't have any manners then you are an asshole, deal with it.