Poll: Good or Evil?

[Easykill]

It occured to me a while ago that it is not what a person does that makes them good or evil, it's what they WOULD do if they could do whatever they wanted with no personal repercussions, other than what was intended, of course. How you behave in Fable or games like that reflect this. So, how about you? Would you act for the greater good, your own good, or the good of everyone? Me? I try to tell myself I'd be good, but I sympathize with Light from Death Note and I often find myself thinking about what I'm capable of. The greater good I would guess.

 

[PurpleRain]

I went for happieness of others. I don't know, the great good sounds too evil because really, what is the great good? Religion will probably believe that it's god and kill countless people for him. As long as you're keeping others happy, it's all good.

 

[John Galt]

I strive for personal gain. I feel that if one devotes their life to serving others, that makes them a willing slave. The creed of altruism is one of slavery, but instead of forcing you with a whip, it forces you with threats of eternal damnation or exile.

Altruism gives people the right to do whatever they want and write it off by claiming that they were motivated by the "greater good". Hitler beleived that his ethnic cleansing was for the good of all of Germany. If a man says his motives lie exclusively in himself, he accepts responsibilty for his actions and does not try to rationalize his actions. Whether your motive is personal or public gain, the nature of your actions will not change to a ration person.

Besides the Ayn Rand overdose I experienced in Atlas Shrugged, I actually have a personal experience I can use to explain why my views make sense to me. All through middle school I was considered "gifted". The very fact that my ability to work and learn was a result wholly of divine blessing or genetic "luck of the draw" seems like an insult to the fact that I worked as hard as I could to be a good student. While genes help, they don't eliminate the fact that it takes hard work to become "gifted".

Now for the actual events: I was given a group assignment with people who were in this order: A child who I suspected of being Autistic, a lazy ass, and some bizzare combination of the two former. I immediatly realized this and decided to ask the teacher to reassign me. I was told (and I quote) "They need a good worker like you to help them." I proceeded to toil away and complete the project on my own while they blundered away on pointless tasks I gave them. When I completed the project I asked for them to receive a different grade than I but again, the teacher refused and commented on my selfishness. I was stuck with the same group of people throughout the year.

What I had experienced was a literal manifestation of "To each according to his need, from each according to his ability". For the rest of the year I was dissillusioned with the whole "Greater Good" concept and in a way it set me on my path to reading Atlas Shrugged when I was 14. Sorry if it's long but this whole thing is sort of a 'hot button' type issue with me.

 

[Duck Sandwich]

The greater good sounds to me like something that, in the long term, provides the greatest amount of good to the greatest amount of people. Things like this may include doing things that may include things that may make someone angry, but benefit them in the long term (ie, if you refuse to let your kid eat at McDonalds, he'll be angry at you, but in the long run it'll be better for him because he won't die of 50 heart attacks)

Utilitarians (people who want the greater good) are also willing to do evil things in order to achieve that greater good ("The ends justify the means.") This means that a utilitarian would kill an innocent person in cold blood if doing so would end up saving three innocent people.

Happiness, on the other hand, has its downfalls as well. A sadist may feel happy when he harms people, but that doesn't make it a good thing.

Personal gain, well. A lot of people who are only out for personal gain often screw others over in their pursuit for it (see: people who buy mass quantities of high demand stuff on EBay, such as XBox360's and then sell them for exorbitant amounts of money), as opposed to achieving personal gain through honest, hard work.

I think if there were a community where everyone looked after everyone's best interests, people would be happier than those in a sort of "every man for himself" community.

From what I know (or think I know) about the three choices, I'd go with the greater good.

EDIT: John, the actual event you experienced seems like something other than "for the greater good." It sounds to me like the complete opposite. "Let's have you lazy/dumb asses leech off the hard worker, rather than having to face a challenge and overcome it yourself." I think the greater good in that situation would be for the teacher to essentially say "get your shit together and actually accomplish something through hard work. That way, you'll improve yourselves, and in the end, you'll have gained something through the experience."

Then again, maybe the greater good and personal gain can be compared to Communism/Capitalism respectively.

Overall, this is a good poll, and I feel like I could learn a lot from it. Good work, Easykill.

 

[John Galt]

Numerically speaking it was the greater good, a 3:1 ratio. Either way, I agree that people need to work hard and act honestly, I just feel that parasitism or screwing people over can occur much more readily in a society where people are instilled with a sense of communal duty, thus allowing someone to essentially become a non-producer when they remind others they work for a common, faceless good rather than that of a person.

Edit: It seems the poll is a dead heat of 3 votes per ideal. I look forward to posts on here like I do to MGG's 'reviews'

 

[BonsaiK]

I didn't vote. What's good for one person isn't necessarily good for another. So I don't try and please others except those close to me, or worry about the greater good of society or whatever. A lot of people in society are assholes anyway and I'm sure they don't give two shits about me. Having said that I don't try and screw anyone else over for personal gain either, and if my friends are in trouble I do try and look after them. So yeah... whatever. I'm really too busy in pursuit of a good time to worry about things like this. (Which is why I don't read Ayn Rand - it looks boring I'd rather have a good time than read about how to theoretically have a good time according to some bint.) This cake is so delicious and moist.

 

[John Galt]

Just because a person is focused on personal gain doesn't mean they will screw people over. I feel that the onyl way to truly advance both your physical needs and keep a stable mind is to work for yourself, and do it honestly. Even if you are altruistic, fine, just don't involve me. Anyone of these ideas could produce a utopia, it's only that people use them as justification for stealing from others.

 

[The Irrelevant Gamer]

Remove the consequences from a person's actions, and eventually they will indulge every whim. It may take a while for their internalized morals to fade, but it will happen.

 

[BonsaiK]

Even if you are altruistic, fine, just don't involve me.

Okay those big sacks of cash I was going to give you, I'll keep those to myself now, seeing as how giving them to you would obviously upset your moral standards.

 

[John Galt]

I don't want what I cannot earn. To me depending on the kindness of others is the worst sin a man can commit.

 

[GrowlersAtSea]

"For the greater good" and "no repercussions" together to me set off alarm bells. Since there is no harm on yourself, that seems to imply that the sacrifice being made is being made (or forced to be made) by others in order to achieve what you believe is for the greater good.

So it sounds like to me that the difference between "for personal gain" and "for the greater good" is just a matter of how much you believe you know what's right for the world. To make sacrifices of your own for what you believe to be for the greater good is a very noble endeavor. To force others to make sacrifices for your own beliefs is probably worse than just personal gain.

Personally I like to think I'm a fairly altruistic person, but I really cannot fairly say how I would theoretically act. Everyone's heard "Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely" and there is truth in there. I'm sure at first if you could do anything you wanted you would be looking to help others, but as time goes on I'm sure a sense of superiority would set in. And then perhaps loathing, malevolence, or even sadism.

There was a psychology experiment at Stanford, years ago, in which twelve participants were randomly selected to be inmates in a fake prison, while another twelve were selected to be the guards. Literally within days some of the "guards" were exhibiting disturbing behavior with the aims of humiliating and degrading the "prisoners" and some even displayed increasingly sadistic tendencies. The study was put to an end less than a week after it began (and a week short of how long it was to last).

Are we all monsters when given power? Of course not. But with no repercussions or oversight, that seems to be a part of people that will rear it's ugly head. Anyone who could do whatever they want without consequences could be a substantial threat to everyone.

And I didn't vote. I don't think the power should exist to work for the greater good while not putting yourself out there. Personal gain sounds very unlike me and besides the point of being able to do whatever you want (most of us spend most of our lives already trying to further ourselves, after all). Happiness of others sounds the best, but I don't exactly know how that would be achieved, since in the end all the world is actions, and reactions, intended good for one can be unintended bad for another.

That's what I think.

And after reading this, I would like to be clear on something. This post kind of came across as a wishy-washy 'everything is grey' thing. I personally believe that there is good and there is evil. But since no one knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men (except for the Shadow) no really knows what people, sometimes even what they themselves, are capable of.

 

[Duck Sandwich]

I don't want what I cannot earn. To me depending on the kindness of others is the worst sin a man can commit.

I think there are some cases where depending on the kindness of others is not the same thing as parasitism.

For example, say someone gets in a car accident, losing a lot of blood. The only way for them to survive would be a blood transfusion. Does the dependence on the kindness of others in this case demonstrate parasitism? Or would kindness strengthen a weak link and in turn strengthen the entire chain (lets say that this fellow who needs blood is a hard-working, productive member of society)?

On a side note, I found it interesting how Kreia in KOTOR 2 questioned your motives if you gave money to a poor refugee on Nar Shadaa, demonstrating the consequences of said action (namely, another refugee finds him, attacks him, and steals his money). This sort of "consequences matter, not intentions" mentality is very utilitarian. And utilitarians are all about the greater good. This complicates the poll because now we need to differentiate between these two definitions of "the greater good" (the ends justify the means/consequences are all that matter VS charity).

I've heard about that experiment at Stanford. It's very shocking, to say the least. There's no way I'd be able to truly, figuratively, put myself in the shoes of the "guards" short of playing the role of one myself.

 

[AnGeL.SLayer]

I think people are too set on the concept of good and evil. black and white are not the only colors, you have mass amounts of various shades of grey that happen. You cannot judge a man on what he sayes he would do but on what he does AND sayes, behind closed doors and before the world. You could have a kind hearted hero to the eyes of thouse who see him in everyday life but when he goes home at night he beats his children and wife. You need to get over this concept of good vs evil. it dosent exist in this world. What one person may think is noble can see it in a whole different perspective. Honestly people thats all it comes down to, personal perspective. How I choose to see good or evil is all in how I've come to see the world, just as you have your own oppinions. I might be against abortion while others are for it. Perspective. In the news the other day I read an artical about a man who kidnapped a rich mans daughter and held her for ransom. The man had fallen on hard times, was disabled and out of work and was falling deeply into debt. He choose to kidnap a young woman when his family was going hungry. i guess it never occured to steal a loaf of bread if his family was hungry. Now the mans wife competely supported her husbands actions in this. She was poor and hungry along with her children so in her mind it was all justified. to kidnap and threaten the life of some innocent woman. tell me, is this good or evil? the man, though his actions where wrong, where just some would say. he didnt do it for personal gain he did it for his wife and kids. Im sure he knew he'd most likely get caught and have to pay for his actions. though it was wrong to kidnap and threaten this womans life he still put everything on the line for them. So once again, right or wrong? good or evil? black or white? How would you feel if you where him? how about if you where the young woman or her father or husband? Perspective.

If you choose to live this life only thinking about yourself then you are missing the big picture. That may be how this day and age has its mind set, personal glory and achievement. That dosen't mean its right. You need to think for yourself a little more and not be so influenced. Thats why the world is full of people who steal, rape and kill. everyone is out for personal satisfaction. You need to rise above this, not fall victum to it. instead of bitching and crying about thouse who are less able around you, you should TEACH them how to better themselfs. take the time to show them something other than what they thought the world was based off of and they just might suprise you. people can only behave as they have been taught, you can expect no more or less from them. if they never had the chance to think for themselfs then what do you expect them to do? think for themselfs? they dont know it even exits in this world. perhaps you should try thinking a little more of thouse around you and not so much about yourself. greed will over come you and you will end up bitter. but hey, thats just my perspective.

One cannot live for themselfs and live a truely happy life. you cannot live for your wife/husband or children if you strive for personal gain. life shouldnt be about living for yourself or for others but a place that exists in the middle. a world where i work everyday for my family, not because i have to but because i want to beable to give them the thigns they want and need. i know an equal world is a silly silly thing but imagen a world where everyone cared for everyone else. When a stranger fell on hard times everyone pitched in to help. no one wants to see another suffer when they have no reason to. help is here and the people choose to do something when they see someone whos stumbled and fallen instead of just walking by. I cant say all people are good or bad but you do have people who live for self gain. when i say self gain you need to understand there are different levels of self gain. thouse who do steal, cheat the system and many other things. but people who lived for self gain in the first place are one of the major reasons the world is the way it is.

think about where the world is and where it was hundreds of years ago. mankind is getting more focused on self gain. people are getting a darker shade of grey everyday. children shooting their parents. adults abusing and killing babies. if i stood and watched man for the first time, this is not the future id have forsaw.

silly people. need to take the time to realize the world dosent revolve around themselfs.

 

[Easykill]

Nice post, but I don't agree with the world is falling to shit perspective. We are as we have always been. The ability for evil, good and rationalized evil is in all of us.
The man who was stealing the bread was doing it for the greater good, of his family at least, because he had no other options left. If what you did had no consequences, how long until a family member of yours really wants something you can't afford? "Well there are always the rich corporate douchebags, I can take the money from them and it wouldnt matter, just this once." Then you're hooked. You will use it whether or not you want to right now, it's just choosing how you would want to use it. I mean, who would want to work for his bread when there is an EA games place nearby and you can make them provide it for you?
I personally think the greater good is underated. Sure Hitler was evil and he was working towards his twisted "Greater Good", but so were the soldiers on our side killing Germans to stop the slaughter. And the politians who sent those soldiers to die, although maybe thats a bad example. The greater good IS different for everyone, that's the point. There are so many different conflicting opions that we go no where fast in any sort of government that value it's citizens opinions. One person could fix all the wrongs that have accumulated over our history, if he stays true to the cause. I also added an option for people like you who are fooling yourselves now, and for people who dont know.

 

[clockpenalty]

Human beings are a weird combination of a social animal and a lone predator.

As omnivores, we are constantly drawn towards both ideals of striving for self and striving for the community.

The true balance between the two is a complex thing and difficult to express in an easily understood and taught manner.

Good and Evil are an excellent, but flawed, oversimplification of this issue in an effort to aid us in judging 'bad eggs' in our society. These things are good, these things are bad. These people are good, these people are bad.

In summary, you can't just decide to be 'good' or 'evil'.

At the end of the day it depends on what you have been led to believe is good, and what you are told is 'evil'.

Interesting note: Have you ever lost a good or evil point in a game like Jade empire or KOTOR simply because you disagreed with the developers on what was good or what was evil?

 

[Easykill]

^ Well, Fable seems to think if you kill the evil guys that attack you, you're an angel. I adhere to the "Evil turns upon Evil" view.
And although the name of the post inquires about good or evil, my poll question is more specific.

 

[Fire Daemon]

Its the choices we make, when we have no time to make them define who we are.

You can't say what would you do, and then give someones time to think about it because the answer will not be what they would do, Its what the will think is the right thing to do.

 

[Same River New Water]

Here are two moral dilemmas:

There's a train with no brakes hurtling down a hill toward five trapped rail workers. You can hit a switch to divert the train onto a new track, but then it will kill one worker trapped on the other fork of the track. Do you hit the switch?

Ok.

Now, there's another train with no brakes hurtling down a hill toward five more trapped rail workers. You're standing on a cliff above the railway line, and the only way you can stop the train is to grab the man standing next to you and throw him in front of the train (he's an extremely heavy man, whose body will stop the train). Do you throw him screaming to his death?

...

If you're like the overwhelming majority of people, you said "Sure, it's for the greater good" to the first question and "Uugh! No way!" to the second. But the outcome is virtually identical. Not throwing the man unwillingly to his death in the second scenario is against the greater good.

I got these scenarios from a really interesting article on the NY Times website. [http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/magazine/13Psychology-t.html?ei=5070&en=d401354908b626b1&ex=1200805200&emc=eta1&pagewanted=all]

 

[John Galt]

In the news the other day I read an artical about a man who kidnapped a rich mans daughter and held her for ransom. The man had fallen on hard times, was disabled and out of work and was falling deeply into debt. He choose to kidnap a young woman when his family was going hungry. i guess it never occured to steal a loaf of bread if his family was hungry. Now the mans wife competely supported her husbands actions in this. She was poor and hungry along with her children so in her mind it was all justified. to kidnap and threaten the life of some innocent woman. tell me, is this good or evil? the man, though his actions where wrong, where just some would say. he didnt do it for personal gain he did it for his wife and kids. Im sure he knew he'd most likely get caught and have to pay for his actions. though it was wrong to kidnap and threaten this womans life he still put everything on the line for them. So once again, right or wrong? good or evil? black or white? How would you feel if you where him? how about if you where the young woman or her father or husband? Perspective.

This is precisely what I'm talking about. People think that just because the motive lies in something besides themselves, they are able to do anything. Whether you do it for your family or yourself, thinking that you have any right to the life of another human is just abhorrent to me. That man couldn't work so he decided that he was entitled to steal someone, a human being, and trade them like a slave.

Also, what do you do for the people who refuse to learn. I know many people in my family who had everything, a ticket to college, a loving family, the foundations for a good life, and they threw it away. Certain people just cannot be reached even if you give it to them on a silver platter.