Poll: Helm's Deep battle, minus the bomb
- Thread starter Tiamattt
- Start date
Recommended Videos
I'm totally forgetting, what was Saruman's goal in that? Did he think the one ring was there, or did he just want those forces out of the way and not joining Gondor?
If the latter, he could have been just happy with his opposition holed up in the Helm's deep, and just went for a siege, because just forcing them to be there meant he achieved his objective.
(But I suppose he just liked the idea of showing his power and utterly destroying the opposition)
But I suppose he wanted to blow stuff up and/or was too lazy or busy to hike to Helm's deep.
If the latter, he could have been just happy with his opposition holed up in the Helm's deep, and just went for a siege, because just forcing them to be there meant he achieved his objective.
(But I suppose he just liked the idea of showing his power and utterly destroying the opposition)
Never happened.arc1991 said:
And going by the books he could have probably just talked the defenders into surrendering...-Dragmire- said:
But I suppose he wanted to blow stuff up and/or was too lazy or busy to hike to Helm's deep.
in the movie version, not a chance, I don't know WHAT Saruman was thinking attack a fortress with friggin' pikemen!
book version... didn't read it, probably had a better shot but, as was already said above, he was outmanouvered before the battle began.
book version... didn't read it, probably had a better shot but, as was already said above, he was outmanouvered before the battle began.
I always wondered this. I mean I know they were kinda known for their cavalry, but its a siege for godssakes! Unless you're planning to pole vault over the walls, leave that 4m stick home!Combustion Kevin said:
AFAIK, IRL trebuchets were (contrary to popular belief, as is often the case with things that look cool) not that good of a weapon. In theory, yes, they could be accurate and they could propel big projectiles over large distances. However, probably because of technical limitations, those things did not perform great. The accuracy was quite random, it was hard to hit roughly the same spot twice, they were unreliable, extremely expensive and generally impractical. Real trebuchets were mostly rich rulers' toys, used to boost the army's morale, scare the opponents, and most importantly, make Mr. Important's willy feel large. Actual damage to the structure wasn't too impressive.thaluikhain said:
That and he is quite old. Let the young orcs do the heavy lifting, that's what they're there for.Lieju said:
OT: I imagine siege machines constructed over a long period of time during the battle could have brought down the walls as well. Ladder assault just wasn't cutting the mustard. The thing is, Orcs don't really have much in the form of preperation. With the first waves of the assault dead, they would have had to regroup and built up trebuchets or some other siege engines to overwhelm the defenders. The riders would have arrived and likely interrupted those efforts.
That bomb really did help their chances.
I don't think Saruman would have attacked the way he did without his "ace up the sleeve." I think he lost by using the bomb because it freed up Rohan to come to the aid of Gondor. Had a real siege taken place, the Rohirrim would have been holed up for months unable to come to the assistance of gondor when called.
Now this isn't the best simulator but me and my brother once did a battle of Helms Deep Warhammer, him the defenders, me the Uruk Hai (and Ringwraiths and Goblins etc.. because why the hell not).
He won without losing a man.
Now this may just be because I'm a bad player and also we may have slightly made up rules to make it more fun... but the theory holds, he had the wall and the elven archers. My Swordsmen couldn't reach him and he cut down anybody climbing ladders.
As in the film the Uruk Hai were on the wall and were cutting down men and elves...BUT they couldn't maximise their force by sending Uruks up ladders 1 by 1...blowing up the wall gave them numerical advantage. However they were breaking through the gate, so no matter how long the wall held the Hornburg would have been stormed eventually when the gate was broken down.
Same result likely.
Everybody flees back to keep when gate breaks. Then ride out into occupied Helms Deep, fighting off Uruks until Gandalf appeared.
On the other hand, say Theoden instead garrisoned his troops at Dunharrow (where they gather in Return of the King), they would likely have been much better defended. Dunharrow, although it lacks walls, was deliberately designed to be unassailable.
The single file path up the steep mountain would have been impossible for the Uruk Hai to attack succesfully. Just Sayin Theoden but you should've listened to Gandalf.
" There is no way out of that ravine.
Théoden is walking into a trap. He thinks
he's leading them to safety. What they
will get is a massacre."
He won without losing a man.
Now this may just be because I'm a bad player and also we may have slightly made up rules to make it more fun... but the theory holds, he had the wall and the elven archers. My Swordsmen couldn't reach him and he cut down anybody climbing ladders.
As in the film the Uruk Hai were on the wall and were cutting down men and elves...BUT they couldn't maximise their force by sending Uruks up ladders 1 by 1...blowing up the wall gave them numerical advantage. However they were breaking through the gate, so no matter how long the wall held the Hornburg would have been stormed eventually when the gate was broken down.
Same result likely.
Everybody flees back to keep when gate breaks. Then ride out into occupied Helms Deep, fighting off Uruks until Gandalf appeared.
On the other hand, say Theoden instead garrisoned his troops at Dunharrow (where they gather in Return of the King), they would likely have been much better defended. Dunharrow, although it lacks walls, was deliberately designed to be unassailable.
The single file path up the steep mountain would have been impossible for the Uruk Hai to attack succesfully. Just Sayin Theoden but you should've listened to Gandalf.
" There is no way out of that ravine.
Théoden is walking into a trap. He thinks
he's leading them to safety. What they
will get is a massacre."
I thought Gandalfs original plan was to directly assault Saruman's Tower, or at least open battle, didn't he say something along the lines of "Ride out and meet them" while arguing with the King, also I don't know, but wouldn't Dunharrow lead to pretty much the same situation as Helms Deep: a single entrance that can be assaulted, and no way out?F said:On the other hand, say Theoden instead garrisoned his troops at Dunharrow (where they gather in Return of the King), they would likely have been much better defended. Dunharrow, although it lacks walls, was deliberately designed to be unassailable.
The single file path up the steep mountain would have been impossible for the Uruk Hai to attack succesfully. Just Sayin Theoden but you should've listened to Gandalf.
" There is no way out of that ravine.
Théoden is walking into a trap. He thinks
he's leading them to safety. What they
will get is a massacre."
You can keep firing them once an hour or so indefinitely, though. Might take you a week or two, but sieges aren't supposed to be quick.theriddlen said:
Okay, without going into actual war tactics, siege tactics, Lord of the Rings lore, book-vs-movie discussion, and all that other fancy stuff that would turn this into a nightmare (but a fun nightmare) and focusing SOLELY on what was shown happening at Helm's Deep during the fight and before the riders showed up, here's my take:
Yes, the Uruks would have. Here is the evidence that I give to support this:
The elves, for all their archery glory and renowned fighting ability, were getting slaughtered. If Aragorn, Leagolas, and Gimili had not been on that wall, I'm certain the elves would have been overrun long before the bomb went off. I've watched that battle countless times, and every time I see the elves losing. Recall when that one beserker managed to get on the wall. He swung his blade left, then right, and took down about four or five elves in a matter of seconds. Also, if you look at the actors in the background, you will never see an elf winning a fight (as in, impaling an Uruk or kicking them off the ladder). They are either struggling to hold off the Uruk, or losing.
Several elves get pulled off the wall and thrown to their deaths by Uruks climbing the ladder. One of the scenes that has always stuck with me is a computer animated scene. An Uruk reaches up--from the ladder, mind you--grabs an elf by the ankle, and pulls him off the wall. Why was that elf standing so close to the edge? It's different for the poor elf who got picked up and tossed over the wall, but this guy was begging for it. Not exactly the smartest choice if you ask me.
When Haldir dies, he looks around before he falls. He sees a lot more bodies of his people than he does of the Uruks. The elves are piled along the wall, and it's meant to show that Haldir fears they have lost.
There are NO elves when the war is done. Okay, there's one, and his final count was forty-two, but he doesn't count. I'm sure some elves survived, but they were so few in number that we didn't see them at the end of the battle. The Uruks basically wiped them out. And elves are better warriors than farmers.
The Uruks breach the gate. Again. Remember, Gimili and Aragorn have to go outside so the King has time to shore up the gate. However, if you look at the gate while Gamdling (is that how you spell it?) is yelling for everyone to retreat, we see the gate is smashed open again. This has nothing to do with the retreat. The gate just happened to give while they were retreating. Meaning it would have given even if they had stood and fought. Considering that the Uruks can now storm the courtyard, instead of coming up ladders one at a time, it would have been a slaughter.
There was a way out of the caves, but it would have done little good. The Uruks would have smashed down the door to the caves eventually. Once inside, they would have overrun the remaining defenders and gone after the people who had escaped. As we saw, Uruks can run for an INSANE distance without rest. They would have easily chased down women and children and wounded soldiers and ended them.
So no. If Gandalf, the trees (it wasn't the Ents, remember, but the trees themselves), or Eomer hadn't shown up and Helm's Deep was left on its own, it would have fallen and the White Hand would have claimed victory.
Yes, the Uruks would have. Here is the evidence that I give to support this:
The elves, for all their archery glory and renowned fighting ability, were getting slaughtered. If Aragorn, Leagolas, and Gimili had not been on that wall, I'm certain the elves would have been overrun long before the bomb went off. I've watched that battle countless times, and every time I see the elves losing. Recall when that one beserker managed to get on the wall. He swung his blade left, then right, and took down about four or five elves in a matter of seconds. Also, if you look at the actors in the background, you will never see an elf winning a fight (as in, impaling an Uruk or kicking them off the ladder). They are either struggling to hold off the Uruk, or losing.
Several elves get pulled off the wall and thrown to their deaths by Uruks climbing the ladder. One of the scenes that has always stuck with me is a computer animated scene. An Uruk reaches up--from the ladder, mind you--grabs an elf by the ankle, and pulls him off the wall. Why was that elf standing so close to the edge? It's different for the poor elf who got picked up and tossed over the wall, but this guy was begging for it. Not exactly the smartest choice if you ask me.
When Haldir dies, he looks around before he falls. He sees a lot more bodies of his people than he does of the Uruks. The elves are piled along the wall, and it's meant to show that Haldir fears they have lost.
There are NO elves when the war is done. Okay, there's one, and his final count was forty-two, but he doesn't count. I'm sure some elves survived, but they were so few in number that we didn't see them at the end of the battle. The Uruks basically wiped them out. And elves are better warriors than farmers.
The Uruks breach the gate. Again. Remember, Gimili and Aragorn have to go outside so the King has time to shore up the gate. However, if you look at the gate while Gamdling (is that how you spell it?) is yelling for everyone to retreat, we see the gate is smashed open again. This has nothing to do with the retreat. The gate just happened to give while they were retreating. Meaning it would have given even if they had stood and fought. Considering that the Uruks can now storm the courtyard, instead of coming up ladders one at a time, it would have been a slaughter.
There was a way out of the caves, but it would have done little good. The Uruks would have smashed down the door to the caves eventually. Once inside, they would have overrun the remaining defenders and gone after the people who had escaped. As we saw, Uruks can run for an INSANE distance without rest. They would have easily chased down women and children and wounded soldiers and ended them.
So no. If Gandalf, the trees (it wasn't the Ents, remember, but the trees themselves), or Eomer hadn't shown up and Helm's Deep was left on its own, it would have fallen and the White Hand would have claimed victory.
Thank you! I had this argument with my friend the other day and he bet me $15 bucks that I was wrong. Easy money. Book version > Movie versionmadwarper said:
OT: Uruks would have one as they could have taken the gate and the defenders would have tired out without getting enough rest due to the number disparity. Although if the ents still made their timely arrival it's a moot point. Heh. Moot. Get it?
Oh...as an aside, why were the women hiding in the caves? Eowyn says the at least some women in Rohan fight, and she was hiding in the caves with the rest. You had (male) kids called out to fight, throwing rocks down off the wall, breasts wouldn't prevent you from doing that.
I don't profess to know too much about Orc military doctrine, or the exact spread of magical death available to them. However, the direct assault may have been their only chance, either way.
We know their army isn't stupid. Any army would have scouts watching every direction. They would have known the riders were coming. And as the movie clearly depicted, (Ignoring the failure of the pikes to do what pikes do and slaughter horses) being pressed from both sides generally causes the forces to be slaughtered. Being attacked from both sides never goes well with a military force. Perhaps the hope was to overrun Helms Deep, and use it as a bottleneck to catch the riders. Blow open the wall and fill it with pikes, or scale the walls and rain death down from them, either way, the cavalry would have been murdered with ease. To turn and face the Riders wouldn't have turned out well, as the forces of Helms deep would simply sally out of the castle into the new rear of their formation.
I couldn't say if removing the bomb would change things or not, but either way, an assault on the keep needed to happen right there, right away.
We know their army isn't stupid. Any army would have scouts watching every direction. They would have known the riders were coming. And as the movie clearly depicted, (Ignoring the failure of the pikes to do what pikes do and slaughter horses) being pressed from both sides generally causes the forces to be slaughtered. Being attacked from both sides never goes well with a military force. Perhaps the hope was to overrun Helms Deep, and use it as a bottleneck to catch the riders. Blow open the wall and fill it with pikes, or scale the walls and rain death down from them, either way, the cavalry would have been murdered with ease. To turn and face the Riders wouldn't have turned out well, as the forces of Helms deep would simply sally out of the castle into the new rear of their formation.
I couldn't say if removing the bomb would change things or not, but either way, an assault on the keep needed to happen right there, right away.