Poll: Hitman Absolution hates women

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peruvianskys

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cypher-raige said:
What about future Hitman or GTA games that want to use vice, sex, strip clubs etc as part of their world, story or theme (not necessarily a socio-political theme)?
Are these bigoted games that promote harmful stereotypes?
Yeah, they are, in that the perpetuate regressive and gross stereotypes in order to appeal to men who should, by all accounts, feel a lot worse about deriving pleasure from the simulated abuse and exploitation of women than they do.
 

NemotheElvenPanda

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I'm not going to deny that Hitman doesn't depict women in a empowering way, but it doesn't really do that well with any other NPC for that matter. Hate is a pretty strong word, especially when referencing to a non-satient collection of code. Even if the game's makers have some misogynist tendencies (which many people do, including women), hate is still too strong a word.
 

cypher-raige

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Skatologist said:
@cypher-raige: Still depends, I told you I didn't play Hitman games and I rarely GTA. Never did I even say that I had a problem with any of these themes in the first place, you didn't ask that, so I didn't answer. But, even if they make it, and I disagree with something they may be trying to convey(not even necessarily in that list of stuff you made), the same thing applies for them as those racist cartoons, perhaps at a more moderate level, but still there. If something leaks months or years in advance for these games I disagree with, I'd probably take no action other than warn I'm not buying under my principles and others will too and simply say that unless changes were made, I would stand by not supporting the game. That's it. Nothing more. Now stop whining about censorship in discussions where it's not even a problem.
So you would just vote with your wallet and not buy a game if you didn't like it?
Why not just say that instead of talking about white supremacists?

I'm not whining about censorship, I just floated it as a possible solution that people might want to use.
You are bringing your own baggage from arguments you had with other people on the internet. Which have nothing to do with me.
 

peruvianskys

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cypher-raige said:
So you would just vote with your wallet and not buy a game if you didn't like it?
Why not just say that instead of talking about white supremacists?

I'm not whining about censorship, I just floated it as a possible solution that people might want to use.
You are bringing your own baggage from arguments you had with other people on the internet. Which have nothing to do with me.
You could also, apart from voting with your wallet, discuss the issues in a public forum, petition the producers of games, or otherwise use your right to free speech in a dozen other ways in order to improve the representation of women in video games.

Demanding that folks not voice their opinions and use the public forum to exert pressure on media figures seems to be an expression of that "censorship" thing you're so worried about.
 

cypher-raige

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peruvianskys said:
Demanding that folks not voice their opinions and use the public forum to exert pressure on media figures seems to be an expression of that "censorship" thing you're so worried about.
You might want to brush up on your comprehension skills and re-read my posts. Then maybe you won't accuse me of things I haven't done.
 

runic knight

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MarsAtlas said:
Which is a level that only exists because TITTIES TITTIES TITTIES! In the grand scheme of the plot, that level is quite literally pointless. There's absolutely no need whatsoever to go to the strip club at all. None.
Because trying to represent the cultural ideal of what is a seedy corrupt underbelly of society is not a viable reason?

Lets face it, the game was going for a dark Noir "bad guy killing very bad guys" sort of story that tried to rope in all sorts of evil criminal underworld tropes. Also probably a reason why the targets are largely horrible characters and ideas such as characterization weren't stretched too far for them.


Diving off this into the topic question itself, no, a game such as this in no way "hates" woman for how they portray them any more then a movie with a black character that dies "hates" black people. The very line of thought to make that claim is just silly.

Any sort of fictional media made on a fixed budget will cut corners. With video games in particular, characters and story is always the first part slashed and burned if it is given a decent funding to begin with. As such this results in storytelling short-hand being used a hell of a lot. For characters, they become simply archetypes if given any "character" at all. Setting becomes overly predictable, and established cliche run amok. Consequently, in use of this story-telling short hand, you have... lets just call them "packages" that tend to go together with the inclusion of one of the components.

In this case, you have the overall theme of "dark and gritty criminal underbelly". Since they are being lazy/underfunded in the story telling department as we discussed before, they will use stoyr shorthand to express that these are bad people of the criminal type. With that comes:
-Reference to murder and violent crimes
-Reference to drugs and prohibited substances
-Reference to prostitution/sex trafficking

Now, when you include the third on on the list, you get the package deal of strip clubs and strippers. Why? Because as a culture, it is already associated together and it saves the time and effort of having to explain all the details when instead you can just dredge up the familiar tropes.


Now, in order for someone to claim hatred here, there has to be an actual dislike towards the gender on display. No, simply having a representation that you disprove of is not "a passionate or intense dislike", it is a representation you dislike and thus are projecting an intent of malice behind choosing. Now if there was no contextual reason for the representation, if they were horrible stereotypes and caricatures amid a sea of otherwise well crafted and deep male characters, if they were treated differently not within the context of the story or the purpose of their characters existence within the game's story being told but rather their gender existed with the intent of representing the sex the models portrayed, well then you might have a point to start that discussion on.

To put this in perspective, this would be like claiming I hate dragons because they tend to be big bosses in fantasy games put there for the characters to kill (ignoring the story context of being a high fantasy and thus relying on familiar tropes, such as big evil dragons, in place of having to put effort into storytelling). Or I hate men because I have to kill them by the millions for being grunts (ignoring story context of the game trying to represent Film Noir representations of the criminal world where the common cultural expectation is that the grunt are male, as well as violent and largely not too bright).

At the end of the day, this is only exemplary of laziness, nothing else. Everyone trying to make this an issue of discrimination or sexism is fighting the wrong thing, if only because it is attacking a perceived motivation that is not actually there in the first place.


And lets go full silly for a second here and say that people all agred that this was hatred against women and that as a result things should change. Because the discussion was so concerned with that sort of portrayal, do you know what the "solution" to that would be?
The same games with either equally annoying "positive" female character tropes being used in order to avoid the claims of hatred against women without actually changing the underlying reason for the choices in the first place or gender-flipped characters (which would make all inverse argues just as valid, and thus the action would be pointless) that would only please the fools who try to argue this issue as if it is a damn quota system to be solved or score card to be balanced.
 

Rutskarn

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Lilikins said:
Its always odd how contradicting these things are, I can bet right now, if not a single woman was included in the game..thered be an outcry that its a male industry so only males are included. Just like that Resident Evil 6 debacle of racism, but in every Resident Evil game beforehand you nuked down hundreds and hundreds of caucasians and it was no prob.

Now by all means, Im quite happy that publishers and game creators alike are starting to get away from the Damsel in Distress trope and completely implement strong women into games but seriously, its just..contradicting. It would be like me saying I wish to become a world class icon for Thai boxing..but I dont want to ever get hurt because thatd be..crap.
Yes it needlessly (in my opinion) oversexualized some women, but nevertheless, the character is a hitman... he gets his job..he does it, just like one on the real world would do. Im highly doubting the gender of his target matters in the slightest.
I don't know if the point's entirely clear to you.

I get skeezed out by Absolution's portrayal of women--but it's not because there are women who are murdered. I'm for inclusion, full stop, and if that means women get murdered, they get murdered. Can you remember anyone getting angry at Saint's Row 2's equal-opportunity police force and gangs, which were half female? No, because they were dressed similarly to the dudes, spoke similarly to the dudes, fought similarly to the dudes, and died similarly to the dudes. Now, that wouldn't be the ONLY valid way to do gender balancing, of course, but there's one example of women being cannon fodder in a way that doesn't feel sinister.

But Absolution...there really wasn't a feeling like the female targets and characters in the game were as diverse as the male ones. You've got Creepy Scientist Man, Big Fat Texan Man, Massive Ugly Brute Man, Uneducated Dandy Man...they all basically stand on their own as diverse characters within the world who all come off very differently.

And then we've got the female characters. There's seduce-y assassin lady, who is overtly sexual towards the player and player avatar and then is shot. We've got sexy nun ladies, who are overtly sexual towards the player and and player avatar and then are shot. We've got strippers, who are there to be overtly sexual towards the player and the player avatar. We've got massive-bosomed shooting range lady, who is there to be overtly etc. We've got the handler, who is naked in the shower--there to be overtly sensual towards the player and player avatar and then get shot. And then we've got the girl who gets kidnapped. This is not an exhaustive list, but it's getting there.

So for some women, playing this, there's a kind of uncomfortable implicit message that this is what women are to the game developers. They're there to be sexy. And then, because it's a Hitman game, they're there to be shot. Especially given the terrifyingly endemic and deep-rooted issue of slut shaming, can you see why that comes off as super, super creepy?
 

Skatologist

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@cypher-paige: You basically asked "Well so what if Hitman is mysogynistic? What do you want to do? Censor?" It's an irrelevant question to this discussion and it made it look like that's what you think people who disagree with what Hitman is doing want. I took you for an anti censor person so when I saw you make ask that question, I called you out, and then you had the gall to say that I didn't answer that pointless question of yours. So I did, at least in part, adding with more specific and personal things that I thought you would appreciate because they are genuine, and then you asked what I thought about future projects, which you didn't bring up prior, so I then answered that question. Now you are asking why I didn't answer all of this at the start? Maybe because you didn't ask all of this at the start.
 

the December King

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erttheking said:
the December King said:
erttheking said:
nathan-dts said:
Guy from the 80 said:
"I felt so bad about killing her I quit the game and I haven?t gone back to it. It?s not worth it"

I guess she dont feel bad for killing men?
Miss the paragraph about her being a domestic abuse victim?
Pardon me, but let me just appreciate the irony that people always hate Anita for taking scenes of violence out of context, and now the person you quoted is doing the same thing.
Weeellll... I don't want to be pedantic, but it's a game about an extremely violent hitman and a seedy, corrupt, exaggerated, 'Film Noir' style underbelly of society. The protagonist murders men and women, and almost all of the targets seem to be really horrible in some way or another. So...

I guess what I'm saying is that if I really hate kittens, I don't go to a pet store and act all shocked that they are there. It's a violent game. And although the women do seem to be sexualized in a lot of the roles, it doesn't change the fact that she was okay with murdering men up to that point.
Now that's a fair point. It can be argued, but you make a stable point. I'm just trying to say that the person quoted by the person I quoted was being misleading. There's a difference, a MASSIVE one between killing a woman, and killing a domestic abuse victim who was stripping for you.

I have no problem with killing women in video games, in fact video games where the goons have a 50/50 gender divide are some of my favorite ones. It's just that the concept of murdering someone like that, murdering someone sexualized right in front of you...it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Then again I find the combination of sex and violence to be so squicky that it makes me feel physically ill. Bottom point I'm trying to make is that you can be dark without being sleazy. Kill a woman. Fine. Kill a defenseless woman. Still fine. Kill a sexualized defenseless woman. You just made things creepy and weird.
I hear you, erttheking. It does get a little disturbing.

I find it's like watching a movie, and someone kills a family pet. Now hear me out, because I am in no way meaning to demean women, nor make any sort of direct comparison between the subject matter. What I am saying is that often family pets are full of inherent trust for humans, and often submit willfully to humans, even strangers, out of love. To watch that innocent trust be misused and the animal tricked fatally is very twisted, and leaves me feeling sick. I get that same level of a sick vibe when a sexualized scenario explodes into violence, whether it's being committed by a man, or a woman. It is jarring, and usually leaves me at odds with the violent party, protagonist or not.

And although I played a bit of Hitman, it's not for me, as I really don't like assassin games, apparently.

Man, I'm getting a little tired of these gender-based threads, but I keep on wandering in...
 

Drejer43

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The_Kodu said:
It's Square Enix they're a Japanese Publisher.
Japan is weird and has a very different culture to the west.
Not that I really care about this discussion, but is that really a valid argument when the developer is Danish?
 

mrdude2010

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I think showing something is different from condoning it. The strip club/strippers bit is clearly tilted towards showing the strippers as the victims and the owner/customers as sleazy pervs. Some of the most badass characters in the game are women. Women run some of the shops in "Shaving Lenny." You're punished equally for killing either gender of civilian. You can't remove the clothes from incapacitated females.
Sometimes, to make your point/enhance the storytelling in a game, you have to show ugly things. Could you really argue that Breaking Bad was pro-meth-making/pro-Nazi/pro- any of the ridiculous shit people did in that series?

I think people saw the trailer and carried it to its illogical conclusion.
 

Depulcator

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It's a 2 year old game. So no, and boy are you late on thinking it is. Voted no on the poll.
 

BenzSmoke

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I wouldn't say it hates women, that would imply that Absolution has some agenda/grudge against women.
I think it would be more accurate to say that Absolution disrespects women.