Poll: I want to change the Gamer reputation.

[Davroth]

le snip

Gamergate is REALLY good at doing that.
I mean atleast those you call SJW's accept when people disagree with them.
Gamergate has the same narrative. If I'm not for you I am against you.
I can't speak like a rational adult to Matt Lees or Jim Sterling because they are your enemies.

They're not mine. They're other human beings I can talk to about human beings things.
I don't peg people as enemies for the crime of disagreeing with me.
But the thing is I also agree with them on various points. That is how I can connect to them.
I see value in some of there opinions.

That's just... straight not true. The us vs them mentality is something that was forced upon GamerGate by the opposition, mostly the press.And people don't bother discussing with people like Matt Lees or Jim Sterling because they have shown time and time again that they are not open for discussion. In time you will experience that for yourself if you truly plan on pushing the issues you say you want to push. This isn't a oneway street. It is not that noone would be willing to talk to people like Matt Lees or Jim Sterling like adults, it's that they already decided that GamerGate has nothing worth talking about. They branded GamerGate as their enemy, not the other way around.

On what basis do you brand GamerGate your enemy? I get the destinct feel that you do, and if it's not based on disagreeing with you, then based on what is it? It is a clearly politically motivated choice, is it not? You don't like the way that some fringe parts of GamerGate have been vocal against what I'd refer to as "tumblr feminists" (a group of people I don't think are actually in the spirit of modern feminism, but who am I to judge), I get that. But I don't know... that seems like you are willing to disregard someone's argument solely based on your perception of them, and not based on the quality of the argument.

And finally, stating that some other group fosters a us vs them mentality is not a good reason to foster one yourself. Two wrongs never make a right.

 

[JediMB]

Well, not so much a new "movement" as a new platform for public and easily accessible discussion of the ethics of the industry.

Overall it would be nice to be able to criticize the AAA sections of the industry without capitalism coming up as an excuse.

 

[JoJo]

This sounds like a good idea, my main advice is to stick to this point of the OP like glue:

8) Extract ourselves completely from Gamergate. Gamergate will not be mentioned or apart of our narrative.

If you frame yourself as an anti-GG movement, in any way, most GGers will dismiss you as a distraction or even an undercover plot. That's simply the way us humans work, it's well-known that we tend to be much more inclined to dismiss evidence if it's perceived to be coming from the "other" side. If you want this to take-off and actually take wind out of the sails of Gamergate, you need to be draw your userbase from both sides, you need to give out a unifying message. This sort of statement:

I'll just declare it.
This movement isn't neutral when it comes to Gamergate and anything related to it.
So yes, this is a anti-gamer gate movement.

The reason I'm being passive about it is the assumption will be I agree with everyone on the anti-gg side, which is not the same. I only agree with some of the people. This is based on what I believe in more then what others believe in.

Makes you sound partisan and will drive away any potential support from Gamergaters. Don't even let yourself be drawn into debate about GG, just focus on the ethics and welcome anyone in who wants to do the same. Do that and you may have a supporter in me.

 

[grassgremlin]

snip

I don't like harrassment.
I don't like seeing women deciding they don't want to belong as gamers.
I don't like to see queer people feel like they don't belong as gamers.
I don't like to see minorities feel like they don't belong as gamers.

The problem you guys seem to miss is that "tumblr feminisms" is caused by decades of abuse.
I understand why people have extreme views.
Why women hate men.
Why black people hate whites.
Why queer folk hate straight or cis-gendered people.

Yeah, it's is crazy. I agree. I wish these people get help.

It's tough to feel like you belong when everyone tells you you're not.
It's hard not to see it as misognistic when Gamergate grabbed Zoe Quinn by the throat and told her she was a "whore, a slut, a ****" for sleeping with men. Not it wasn't enough just point out collusion. You had to call it five guys. You had to joke about her sex life. Whether it's true or not didn't matter. Whether she is a good person or not didn't matter.

You turned someone who did something wrong on the internet into public enemy number one.
The you shout ethics. I would believe it if four women weren't getting death threats so conveniently when these issues are hottest. The reason why we connect them to you is because these are convenient.

If you can call 12 articles of "Gamers are Dead" out as some collusion, despite most of them being taken way out of context, then I can call you out for death threats made during these past three months.

It's tough. You hear me. Freaking tough to go. Okay, GG isn't that bad when you prove me wrong 1000% of the time.
There was a time I was for GG, you know. I still sympathize with GG. I still talk to them. It's hard. Way hard when people still hurl the same lies around and I'm trying to show facts. I get a few people I reason with.

It's hard talking to a leaderless group when everyone is so different in what they want. Yesterday, all I got was calls to have all journalists fired and how Anita Sarkeesian is the devil. I lost a friend because I did not agree with him when he said I had no right to be offended.

I feel like GG wants the entire internet to be 4chan. We hurl racial and homophobic slurs around. When you criticize someone, make sure to call them a "****, fag, ******" just to get the point across how much you hate their guts for having a opinion.

My gosh, I can't stand Davis "Why Blacks Fail" Aurini and Milo Yolo-long-last-name. The latter, his trangenderism article broke me as a human being. http://yiannopoulos.net/2014/08/15/transgenderism-is-a-psychiatric-disorder-its-sufferers-need-therapy-not-surgery/

You literally expect me to support this?
We may have similar opinions. Tumblr feminism IS brutally insane. I agree with that sentiment, but hell no will I follow a group with people like that as there "Based" friends.

Edit: Look. I'm gonna change my stance non-gamergate instead of Anti. Is that acceptable? I refuse to derail this conversation by arguing with GG. I want to have reasonable discussion. This movement will not be apart of gamergate. That's my main stance. I'll accept people from both sides as long as they are willing to talk about the real issues of ethics. No SJWs, No feminists, No conservative leaning agendas, no liberal leaning agendas.

 

[grassgremlin]

It's good to see you're doing a website, consider anything you need from me on the admin side, or marketing, behind you 100%. I'll see if there is anything else I can garner. I'll start emailing people to see if they're interested in helping out.

I'll also ask my husband, who does CS stuff on the side (though not web design) if he has any tips on how to get up a webpage, and any tips or tricks he has for moderating. He may be able to help out in that regard. He likes doing that kind of stuff, though he's not very good with the look side of it.

Oh, thank you very much. Really, that is much appreciated. I'm working on a list of goals for it and figuring out how I can make sure the message is clear. Thank you.

 

[Silvanus]

Gamergate is REALLY good at doing that.
I mean atleast those you call SJW's accept when people disagree with them.
Gamergate has the same narrative. If I'm not for you I am against you.
I can't speak like a rational adult to Matt Lees or Jim Sterling because they are your enemies.

They're not mine. They're other human beings I can talk to about human beings things.
I don't peg people as enemies for the crime of disagreeing with me.
But the thing is I also agree with them on various points. That is how I can connect to them.
I see value in some of there opinions.

It would be interesting to see this lead somewhere positive, but I would encourage you not to start fisticuffs with GamerGate. I would urge that people just call it pro-ethics, or whatever you wish, and make clear that it is disassociated from GamerGate. Nobody can get (validly) mad about disassociation.

On what basis do you brand GamerGate your enemy? I get the destinct feel that you do, and if it's not based on disagreeing with you, then based on what is it? It is a clearly politically motivated choice, is it not? You don't like the way that some fringe parts of GamerGate have been vocal against what I'd refer to as "tumblr feminists" (a group of people I don't think are actually in the spirit of modern feminism, but who am I to judge), I get that. But I don't know... that seems like you are willing to disregard someone's argument solely based on your perception of them, and not based on the quality of the argument.

GamerGate has been defined variously, and very differently, by different people. As far as I understand it, grassgremlin wants a hashtag specifically about the points mentioned in the OP, without association with the various other causes/ definitions/ aspects.


OT: Not sure what relation point #3, about ending review scores, has to do with ethics. That's just a matter of taste.

 

[grassgremlin]

Gamergate is REALLY good at doing that.
I mean atleast those you call SJW's accept when people disagree with them.
Gamergate has the same narrative. If I'm not for you I am against you.
I can't speak like a rational adult to Matt Lees or Jim Sterling because they are your enemies.

They're not mine. They're other human beings I can talk to about human beings things.
I don't peg people as enemies for the crime of disagreeing with me.
But the thing is I also agree with them on various points. That is how I can connect to them.
I see value in some of there opinions.

It would be interesting to see this lead somewhere positive, but I would encourage you not to start fisticuffs with GamerGate. I would urge that people just call it pro-ethics, or whatever you wish, and make clear that it is disassociated from GamerGate. Nobody can get (validly) mad about disassociation.

OT: Not sure what relation point #3, about ending review scores, has to do with ethics. That's just a matter of taste.

Okay. Cool heads prevail

 

[grassgremlin]

So it IS a separate hashtag trick. *slow clap*

If you're willing to talk to me like a reasonable adult, I'm all ears.
However, if you guys want to keep making assumptions about my character then I don't think we'll ever get anything done.

I get it though. I get the conclusion you're trolling and that's really annoying.

 

[Nirallus]

Its a good idea, but none of the gators I've encountered are willing to do it because oh noes, they'll the momentum if they arse the effort to get rid of violent fuckwits and bigots from their ranks. But no, don't say that they're bigots or anything, because thats only for a few people, a few people that they take no effort to separate themselves from.

What makes you think we have the power to purge the internet of trolls? Goon/GNAA types will shit up the new hashtag just as easily. The journalists will attack it just the same, because it really is this simple: They were called out on unethical behavior, and they've shown that they will stop at nothing to deflect from that.

 

[Something Amyss]

If you want, you can borrow #istandwithbatboy.

Batboy brings with it all the journalistic integrity of the Weekly World News.

 

[Davroth]

I don't like harrassment.
I don't like seeing women deciding they don't want to belong as gamers.
I don't like to see queer people feel like they don't belong as gamers.
I don't like to see minorities feel like they don't belong as gamers.

So basically we are in 100% agreement then?

The problem you guys seem to miss is that "tumblr feminisms" is caused by decades of abuse.
I understand why people have extreme views.
Why women hate men.
Why black people hate whites.
Why queer folk hate straight or cis-gendered people.

Yeah, it's is crazy. I agree. I wish these people get help.

I condemn all kinds of hate, and I wont entertain hate. It doesn't matter if hate is justified or not, if you choose to turn hate into a significant part of your personality, you are not worth talking to. And the only hope I have is that those people grow up being very very ashamed of themselves.

It's tough to feel like you belong when everyone tells you you're not.
It's hard not to see it as misognistic when Gamergate grabbed Zoe Quinn by the throat and told her she was a "whore, a slut, a ****" for sleeping with men. Not it wasn't enough just point out collusion. You had to call it five guys. You had to joke about her sex life. Whether it's true or not didn't matter. Whether she is a good person or not didn't matter.

You turned someone who did something wrong on the internet into public enemy number one.
The you shout ethics. I would believe it if four women weren't getting death threats so conveniently when these issues are hottest. The reason why we connect them to you is because these are convenient.

If you can call 12 articles of "Gamers are Dead" out as some collusion, despite most of them being taken way out of context, then I can call you out for death threats made during these past three months.

I see, this is a very very common misconception about what the controversial part of the "Quinnspiracy" was, which I still can't believe in unironically her twitter user name. The controversial part was that people were forbidden to talk about it. That was beyond jarring since the same people who revelled in any sex scandal related to the games industry when it implicated a man, no matter how much actual meat was to the story. There are a lot of good examples for that. However this one came around, and noone wanted to report on it, and noone was allowed to talk about it. That was controversial. That was what ended up being the initial spark of GamerGate.

It has been well documented that Zoe Quinn has been recieving death threats way before any of this. I dare say trying to connect that to GamerGate is misguided.

It's tough. You hear me. Freaking tough to go. Okay, GG isn't that bad when you prove me wrong 1000% of the time.
There was a time I was for GG, you know. I still sympathize with GG. I still talk to them. It's hard. Way hard when people still hurl the same lies around and I'm trying to show facts. I get a few people I reason with.

It's hard talking to a leaderless group when everyone is so different in what they want. Yesterday, all I got was calls to have all journalists fired and how Anita Sarkeesian is the devil. I lost a friend because I did not agree with him when he said I had no right to be offended.

I feel like GG wants the entire internet to be 4chan. We hurl racial and homophobic slurs around. When you criticize someone, make sure to call them a "****, fag, ******" just to get the point across how much you hate their guts for having a opinion.

Honestly? Both on Twitter and on here, the only ones I see using that language are rather obvious troll accounts that usually get swiftly flagged as such. Anyone can open a troll account, sadly due to the nature of twitter, anyone can do the exact same thing. And if your friends were the ones who were having those kinds of discussions, maybe you had rather problematic friends? I can't really judge. I mostly interact with GamerGate on here and reading twitter.

My gosh, I can't stand Davis "Why Blacks Fail" Aurini and Milo Yolo-long-last-name. The latter, his trangenderism article broke me as a human being. http://yiannopoulos.net/2014/08/15/transgenderism-is-a-psychiatric-disorder-its-sufferers-need-therapy-not-surgery/

You literally expect me to support this?
We may have similar opinions. Tumblr feminism IS brutally insane. I agree with that sentiment, but hell no will I follow a group with people like that as there "Based" friends.

I hate those people as well. Sadly they are the only ones who want to stand by this cause. Again, you will learn in time should this take off. It's disheartening. More then once, I wanted to turn my back on all of this for good, for precisely that reason.

But for precisely that reason, I only take from them what information I can verify, and nothing else. If I had a choice, that would be a different story. I'm just not seeing it. Nothing seemed to stick so far, and no big name seemed to be willing to take a pro-ethics stance aside from rightwing journalists and the like.

Yup, I hate that. So again, looks like we are in, what, 90% agreement at the end? ^^

 

[GloatingSwine]

The journalists will attack it just the same, because it really is this simple: They were called out on unethical behavior, and they've shown that they will stop at nothing to deflect from that.

Except they weren't called out on any of the unethical behaviour that actually matters.

If you wanted people to believe in GamerGate as a genuine consumer movement, then it would be IGN quaking in its boots right now, but as far as I can tell they're happily sucking on the same PR tit they always have been, the same paid for "first looks" that regurgitate the press releases, the same advertisements for content alongside "critique" of the same content, the same hype disguised as preview, and now GamerGate has highlighted the power of advertisers to control editorial and done so by making it appear that that's what the public not only accepts but actively wants they'll do so even more.

But that's not what's happening is it. There's no mention of the payola that infests the mainstream games press, there's no campaign against GameInformer, wholly owned by a retailer!, I mean how much less ethical can you get than a publication ostensibly producing purchasing reccomendations which is owned by the people the product is likely to be purchased from.

These are the real ethical concerns that should be informing GamerGate, but they aren't, are they. It's almost as if the "movement" is an enormous case of internet butthurt because a person said a mean thing about "gamers" (ps ethical journalism must necessarily allow these things to be said) and not about ethics at all.

 

[grassgremlin]

I hate those people as well. Sadly they are the only ones who want to stand by this cause. Again, you will learn in time should this take off. It's disheartening. More then once, I wanted to turn my back on all of this for good, for precisely that reason.

But for precisely that reason, I only take from them what information I can verify, and nothing else. If I had a choice, that would be a different story. I'm just not seeing it. Nothing seemed to stick so far, and no big name seemed to be willing to take a pro-ethics stance aside from rightwing journalists and the like.

Yup, I hate that. So again, looks like we are in, what, 90% agreement at the end? ^^

I want to offer that choice honestly. If you feel distressed about the "gamer issue" I want you to have a choice to support the parts that are important to you. Let's all focus on how the gaming press is fundamently broken. How we can help fix it and how we can construct our arguments to get the point across.

If anything the press should not be reporting sex scandals unless they are direct effects to the industry. They also have to be unbiased but also careful. Sex scandals are iffy. The best thing to do is handle them professionally. No tabloid rhetoric about sex lives and other shenanigans. Just how does this effect games. Reporting on a dev being fired or something to that extent for a sex scandal is much better then talking in detail about the people they had sex with.

We should not be reading about "juicy" tidbits like cheating and other crap. Keep that with tabloid news.

 

[grassgremlin]

If you want, you can borrow #istandwithbatboy.

Batboy brings with it all the journalistic integrity of the Weekly World News.

Lol. Is batboy a thing? XD
I could call the site Batboy Gaming if it's not taken.

Edit: Awww, I googled it and it was already taken.

 

[Something Amyss]

If you want, you can borrow #istandwithbatboy.

Batboy brings with it all the journalistic integrity of the Weekly World News.

Lol. Is batboy a thing? XD
I could call the site Batboy Gaming if it's not taken.

Edit: Awww, I googled it and it was already taken.

The face of the journalistic revolution.