Poll: Injustice of the Permaban

Recommended Videos

Drathnoxis

I love the smell of card games in the morning
Legacy
Sep 23, 2010
6,023
2,235
118
Just off-screen
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
I've been lurking these forums for quite some time now, and while I think it's generally a pretty cool place I can't help feel that the super strict moderation is a detriment to the site.

First off, the ten strike warning system. Though it has relaxed slightly since it's initial implementation, it remains to be a ticking time bomb over the heads of many frequent posters. Now I know that someone is going to refer to those polls that state that the majority of posters have no strikes against them; however, those polls have no indication of the posting habits of those that respond. Take me for example, I have no warnings, but I also have very few posts to my name. I also vote in every poll I see. So you can see how this throws the validity of the poll into question. I feel that the ten strike warning system is bound to take out most of the frequent posters eventually, or at least the more interesting ones because, really, everybody slips up now and again and depending on how much they post it may be more often than within *six months* of their last mistake. Six months is a really long time to lose one strike and two years to erase them all is completely absurd, most of the current posters haven?t even been here two years! A more reasonable time frame would be one or two months to get rid of one infraction and one year to erase them all. One last thing about the ten strike system, and the thing that burns me the most about it, is that it gives the same weight to every infraction. I can't stand to see someone get banned for a low-content post and yet it seems to happen quite frequently.

Next, for the most part it seems that when a regular user gets banned, it only detracts from the conversations that take place here on the Escapist. A lot of the frequent posters I've seen banned seem to have opinions that differ from the norm. I believe that they are more likely to get banned because they tend to be ganged up on, get frustrated, and therefore (understandably) resort to acting a bit more like a jerk than they usually would. Also, I believe that people are more likely to report people they disagree with rather than ones that they are in alignment with. This leads to a homogenization of opinion and I for one don't think it makes for interesting conversation when everybody stands around agreeing and patting each other on the back. Another thing people that get banned tend to have is passion. Passionate posters make more interesting posts that are usually reasonably well defended. Weeding these people out leads to those remaining in the forum to be wishy-washy posters who don't really take a firm stand on any topics.

The Escapist is a place to have interesting semi-intellectual discussions about a wide variety of topics. However, discussion is not always neat and agreeable and tends to get tempers up. To cut out this aspect is to neuter discussion itself. By all means ban those that solely intend to start trouble right from the start, but those that have proven themselves to be worthy contributors over time by making frequent well defended posts should be given some leniency when it comes to the permanent ban. I feel it really is the people who are a little bit controversial that forces people to defend and re-evaluate their positions and make for the most interesting conversations. Is the purpose of the ban not to improve the quality of these forums? I believe it is. I must then ask: Does banning someone with 10 minor infractions over the course of years really improve the Escapist?
Edit: actually it's eight strikes, not ten
 

Christemo

New member
Jan 13, 2009
3,665
0
0
I´m gonna go ahead and say no. I have an incredibly explosive vocabulary, put things very bluntly and snark a lot. I have had exactly 1 probation in my 4 years on this forum (although i was inactive between 2011 and just recently) and that came from throwing an absolute shitstorm at someone for, looking back, unjust reasons. I have seen some somewhat questionable permabans on some of my favorite users on here in the past (Lurk in peace MaxTheReaper), but overall i love the mods in this forum, as they are both for the most part just (although since justice is never a set term, that could mean anything to some people) and friendly people that you can actually have a conversation with, whereas most subreddit and forum mods i know of outside the Escapist are quite aloof and sometimes a bit power hungry.
 

Fiz_The_Toaster

books, Books, BOOKS
Legacy
Jan 19, 2011
5,498
1
3
Country
United States
No.

Look, there have been some users around here that got banned recently and a few a bout a year ago that I miss seeing around. However, they knew the rules and broke them and now they have to take responsibility for their actions. If someone can't discuss something without breaking the rules, like personal attacks and just being a jerk, then that's on them.

The mods have been doing a good job here, and keep in mind that there are users that do go and report posts that they feel have been broken. It's up to the person that got reported to appeal and defend their post.
 

Eleuthera

Let slip the Guinea Pigs of war!
Sep 11, 2008
1,673
0
0
It's 8 strikes actually, not 10.

Really you don't just accidentally make 8 low-content posts. One or two before you understand the rules, maybe.

It's really not that hard to not insult people, if someone insults you, report them and let it go. If someone disagrees with you or even if someone has repulsive ideas on any subject, discuss things civilly or leave the discussion.

There's really only 1 rule: make sure your content is worthwhile.

Insults aren't, low content isn't, spam isn't, being a jerk isn't
 
Dec 14, 2009
15,526
0
0
Fiz_The_Toaster said:
No.

Look, there have been some users around here that got banned recently and a few a bout a year ago that I miss seeing around. However, they knew the rules and broke them and now they have to take responsibility for their actions. If someone can't discuss something without breaking the rules, like personal attacks and just being a jerk, then that's on them.

The mods have been doing a good job here, and keep in mind that there are users that do go and report posts that they feel have been broken. It's up to the person that got reported to appeal and defend their post.
I'm inclined to agree.


The only way you can get banned:

1: You aren't aware of the CoC.

2: You try

3: You never learn from your mistakes


I've had a few warnings in my past, and I was up to yellow on my bar at one point. I had almost made the 2 tear mark for good behaviour and got my entire record wiped, but a movie quote caught me in the junk :D

My point is, you won't be banned if actually pay attention to what you bloody post.
 

sky14kemea

Deus Ex-Mod
Jun 26, 2008
12,760
0
0
x-Tomfoolery-x said:
No. The mods here are sexy beasts and the rules keep the site a civil place to be.
I appreciate that people can't just run wild without due regard and respect for others.

Mrrowr~

OT: I'm far too bleary-eyed to answer this properly, so I will leave that to my co-Mods. However..
Drathnoxis said:
I must then ask: Does banning someone with 10 minor infractions over the course of years really improve the Escapist?
If you have 10 infractions over the years, then either you're getting them often enough that they aren't being removed, or you've not been here that long at all.

It may not improve the Escapist, but it doesn't hinder it either.
 

Fiz_The_Toaster

books, Books, BOOKS
Legacy
Jan 19, 2011
5,498
1
3
Country
United States
Daystar Clarion said:
Fiz_The_Toaster said:
No.

Look, there have been some users around here that got banned recently and a few a bout a year ago that I miss seeing around. However, they knew the rules and broke them and now they have to take responsibility for their actions. If someone can't discuss something without breaking the rules, like personal attacks and just being a jerk, then that's on them.

The mods have been doing a good job here, and keep in mind that there are users that do go and report posts that they feel have been broken. It's up to the person that got reported to appeal and defend their post.
I'm inclined to agree.


The only way you can get banned:

1: You aren't aware of the CoC.

2: You try

3: You never learn from your mistakes


I've had a few warnings in my past, and I was up to yellow on my bar at one point. I had almost made the 2 tear mark for good behaviour and got my entire record wiped, but a movie quote caught me in the junk :D

My point is, you won't be banned if actually pay attention to what you bloody post.
Pretty much.

I've had two against me and they were stupid on my part and I really should have known better. Personally, if you can't behave after 8 marks then you're just asking for it. The general 'you', not you personally Daystar. That would just be silly, and I don't want to be silly.
 

Sassafrass

This is a placeholder
Legacy
Aug 24, 2009
51,250
1
3
Country
United Kingdom
The moderation here is fine as it is, it's only when the big names at the time get banned the moderation suddenly becomes a damn problem.

Seriously. No one was complaining about this til a week or so ago.
 
Dec 14, 2009
15,526
0
0
Sassafrass said:
The moderation here is fine as it is, it's only when the big names at the time get banned the moderation suddenly becomes a damn problem.

Seriously. No one was complaining about this til a week or so ago.
Yeah, I noticed that too.

We wouldn't be having this discussion if Vault was still around, these things only crop up when someone people actually liked, get banned :D
 

Andy Shandy

Fucked if I know
Jun 7, 2010
4,797
0
0
No, they're not too strict. I can't remember seeing a warning, suspension or ban that whenever I've opened it and looked at what has been written, I've gone "What was that for?"

I'll also echo Eleuthera's sentiments, it really isn't all that difficult to avoid insulting people.

And the low content rule is easy too. Does your post contribute to the discussion (assuming it also doesn't insult people)? If so, then it should be fine. I mean, I've had a few posts that were maybe 7 or 8 words long. However, they contributed to the discussion at hand, so they were good.
 

Esotera

New member
May 5, 2011
3,400
0
0
But it's not really a permaban, all you have to do is message the admins & they'll reinstate you - as evidenced by the brief but colourful Second Age of Danyal we experienced in R&P.

I think the rules are ok here, just they seem to be applied quite inconsistently. It can be a bit unforgiving if a long-term user slips up once & then ends up getting permabanned though.
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
20,519
5,335
118
As long as I'm not banned I'd say moderation on this site is a-okay.

Seriously, all you need to do is withhold from personal attacks, and you'll find it quite difficult to get slapped on the fingers.
 

Eclipse Dragon

Lusty Argonian Maid
Legacy
Jan 23, 2009
4,259
12
43
Country
United States
Drathnoxis said:
I've been lurking these forums for quite some time now, and while I think it's generally a pretty cool place I can't help feel that the super strict moderation is a detriment to the site.
The mods are strict, but it isn't to the detriment of the site. I like this site because the mods are strict, if the mods were lazy and didn't do their jobs as diligently as they do, just image all the unsavory types that would be running around pretty much insulting you to your face for having an opinion, and not even giving two cents as to why they think of you that way.

Drathnoxis said:
First off, the ten strike warning system. Though it has relaxed slightly since it's initial implementation, it remains to be a ticking time bomb over the heads of many frequent posters. Now I know that someone is going to refer to those polls that state that the majority of posters have no strikes against them; however, those polls have no indication of the posting habits of those that respond. Take me for example, I have no warnings, but I also have very few posts to my name. I also vote in every poll I see. So you can see how this throws the validity of the poll into question. I feel that the ten strike warning system is bound to take out most of the frequent posters eventually, or at least the more interesting ones because, really, everybody slips up now and again and depending on how much they post it may be more often than within *six months* of their last mistake. Six months is a really long time to lose one strike and two years to erase them all is completely absurd, most of the current posters haven?t even been here two years! A more reasonable time frame would be one or two months to get rid of one infraction and one year to erase them all. One last thing about the ten strike system, and the thing that burns me the most about it, is that it gives the same weight to every infraction. I can't stand to see someone get banned for a low-content post and yet it seems to happen quite frequently.


Next, for the most part it seems that when a regular user gets banned, it only detracts from the conversations that take place here on the Escapist. A lot of the frequent posters I've seen banned seem to have opinions that differ from the norm. I believe that they are more likely to get banned because they tend to be ganged up on, get frustrated, and therefore (understandably) resort to acting a bit more like a jerk than they usually would. Also, I believe that people are more likely to report people they disagree with rather than ones that they are in alignment with. This leads to a homogenization of opinion and I for one don't think it makes for interesting conversation when everybody stands around agreeing and patting each other on the back. Another thing people that get banned tend to have is passion. Passionate posters make more interesting posts that are usually reasonably well defended. Weeding these people out leads to those remaining in the forum to be wishy-washy posters who don't really take a firm stand on any topics.
The most common infractions I've seen are, advertising, insulting another user, and low content. If you avoid those three things, for the most part, you can keep a clean record and post frequently. You can debate with another user all you want, you just have to keep your cool while you do it. As for the low content and advertising, a user should be able to learn their lesson after one or two warnings.

Yes people are probably more likely to report users they disagree with, but that doesn't mean the mods will take action on those reports. They only take action if they see the post that's been reported is breaking rules. You can have passionate posts and defend yourself without getting mod wrath. J-e-f-f-e-r-s does it all the time.
 

Drathnoxis

I love the smell of card games in the morning
Legacy
Sep 23, 2010
6,023
2,235
118
Just off-screen
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
sky14kemea said:
OT: I'm far too bleary-eyed to answer this properly, so I will leave that to my co-Mods. However..
Drathnoxis said:
I must then ask: Does banning someone with 10 minor infractions over the course of years really improve the Escapist?
If you have 10 infractions over the years, then either you're getting them often enough that they aren't being removed, or you've not been here that long at all.

It may not improve the Escapist, but it doesn't hinder it either.
Is it really such a heinous crime to slip up twice a year? I don't think a decrease in the amnesty period would really make The Escapist a bastion of trolls and assholes.
 

Drathnoxis

I love the smell of card games in the morning
Legacy
Sep 23, 2010
6,023
2,235
118
Just off-screen
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Eclipse Dragon said:
You can have passionate post and defend yourself without getting mod wrath. J-e-f-f-e-r-s does it all the time.
This practically proves my point as J-e-f-f-e-r-s is 2 steps away from a ban.
 

DefunctTheory

Not So Defunct Now
Mar 30, 2010
6,438
0
0
Its cute you think the banning system is worse now then it used to be.

From what I've seen since I came back, most of the post that get tagged for probation or banning are quite legitimate.

I remember when there was actually an underground group of individuals trying to get rid of mods because of what was getting people in trouble. Hell, I once got in trouble for the most non-offensive fapping joke ever. When I contested it, the mod replied:

'It's gross.'

Fantastic.
 

maddawg IAJI

I prefer the term "Zomguard"
Feb 12, 2009
7,840
0
0
Drathnoxis said:
I've been lurking these forums for quite some time now, and while I think it's generally a pretty cool place I can't help feel that the super strict moderation is a detriment to the site.

First off, the ten strike warning system. Though it has relaxed slightly since it's initial implementation, it remains to be a ticking time bomb over the heads of many frequent posters. Now I know that someone is going to refer to those polls that state that the majority of posters have no strikes against them; however, those polls have no indication of the posting habits of those that respond. Take me for example, I have no warnings, but I also have very few posts to my name. I also vote in every poll I see. So you can see how this throws the validity of the poll into question. I feel that the ten strike warning system is bound to take out most of the frequent posters eventually, or at least the more interesting ones because, really, everybody slips up now and again and depending on how much they post it may be more often than within *six months* of their last mistake. Six months is a really long time to lose one strike and two years to erase them all is completely absurd, most of the current posters haven?t even been here two years! A more reasonable time frame would be one or two months to get rid of one infraction and one year to erase them all. One last thing about the ten strike system, and the thing that burns me the most about it, is that it gives the same weight to every infraction. I can't stand to see someone get banned for a low-content post and yet it seems to happen quite frequently.
Prior to being made a moderator, I was a normal user just like the rest of you. I went 3 years without a single infraction, with over 10,000 posts to my name. Or, for those of you enjoy math, roughly 9 posts every single day (That number's actually dropped quite dramatically over the last 6 months, but I digress). The point I'm trying to make here is that this idea that you will EVENTUALLY slip up is just silly and I will reiterate what I said the last time this topic came up. It is not difficult to avoid mod-wrath and I'm not the single exception to the rule. Sky14kemea has been here roughly 2 months longer then me and has a clean record, Neonbob has a clean record, Sassafrass has a clean record. The list goes on, but I have limited time to write this so I'll move on to the next part of your post.

Your talk on the low-content rule is also off a tad. A lot of the times, we won't actually moderate above a probation for low-contents and if we do, its because the individual is doing it repeatedly in succession.
Drathnoxis said:
Next, for the most part it seems that when a regular user gets banned, it only detracts from the conversations that take place here on the Escapist. A lot of the frequent posters I've seen banned seem to have opinions that differ from the norm. I believe that they are more likely to get banned because they tend to be ganged up on, get frustrated, and therefore (understandably) resort to acting a bit more like a jerk than they usually would. Also, I believe that people are more likely to report people they disagree with rather than ones that they are in alignment with. This leads to a homogenization of opinion and I for one don't think it makes for interesting conversation when everybody stands around agreeing and patting each other on the back. Another thing people that get banned tend to have is passion. Passionate posters make more interesting posts that are usually reasonably well defended. Weeding these people out leads to those remaining in the forum to be wishy-washy posters who don't really take a firm stand on any topics.
You're right actually on the fact that users are ganging up on the minority posters. Several posts in the Queue right now are actually just people reporting those who they disagree with and I'll assure, we clear those almost right on the spot if they don't contain anything offensive. Heck, someone disagreeing with you is how I found this thread to begin with.

That said, passion is a double edged sword. You can be passionate about your opinion, but at the same time be completely offensive, as was the case recently with a homophobic poster who we really felt we shouldn't touch because he wasn't breaking any rules. Eventually it got to the point where we said "Enough" and decided that we shouldn't condone that stuff.
Drathnoxis said:
The Escapist is a place to have interesting semi-intellectual discussions about a wide variety of topics. However, discussion is not always neat and agreeable and tends to get tempers up. To cut out this aspect is to neuter discussion itself. By all means ban those that solely intend to start trouble right from the start, but those that have proven themselves to be worthy contributors over time by making frequent well defended posts should be given some leniency when it comes to the permanent ban.
The problem with this is that, if history of the community of this site says anything, is that the community loves the frequent troublemaker. Maxthereaper's ban sparked so much anger from the community (Unjust anger I might add) that we had to actually hide his posts from public view to avoid people derailing any further threads. We treat every equally and fairly. Special privilege should not be given to anyone. The said, you can have passionate debates, you can have arguments, you can have discussion, but we don't want to see people calling others names or claiming the other poster is stupid in some way or another.
Drathnoxis said:
I must then ask: Does banning someone with 10 minor infractions over the course of years really improve the Escapist?
As I stated before, you can avoid mod wrath entirely by just stopping and going "Am I being am asshole?" If I can see random individuals go 6 months or 1 year without a single case, then I don't see why anyone should be incapable of doing it.
 

Eclipse Dragon

Lusty Argonian Maid
Legacy
Jan 23, 2009
4,259
12
43
Country
United States
Drathnoxis said:
Eclipse Dragon said:
You can have passionate post and defend yourself without getting mod wrath. J-e-f-f-e-r-s does it all the time.
This practically proves my point as J-e-f-f-e-r-s is 2 steps away from a ban.
But that doesn't mean you can't have a debate without losing your head. There is a difference after all between debating and arguing.