Poll: Is Burial at Sea part 2 anti-Feminist? (spoilers)

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Raggedstar

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Burial at Sea part 2 had problems, but being anti-woman isn't one of them. Actually, Bioshock and Infinite for the most part has done a good job with it's female characters.

Non-Confrontational Gameplay/Role: Elizabeth is not physically strong, is inexperienced in combat, and she's alone. Not to mention she is very book smart and calculating, so I can't really see her going in with the same approach as Booker. Most violent thing she has done is stab Daisy from behind with scissors and leading to thoughts about murdering Comstock (which she never does directly). She also never fully submits to Atlas and until she's captured is determined to try to find a weakness/mistake and exploit it (though unfortunately Atlas never gave her the chance). Even with a pick in her eye she has some sass.

Willingly Losing Her Powers: Poorly explained, but a purpose given and it wasn't an educated or willing choice. The Luteces faced a similar dilemma in Rosalind's voxophone. Gameplay wise it was to nerf someone who has the powers of a "goddess" of sorts who would typically know of every event before it even happened and is somewhat "above" a normal being.

"I'm Not Booker": Booker was a soldier who contributed in genocide. Elizabeth is a 20ish year old woman who has been locked in a tower for most of her life. Not to mention that part of her helplessness is that she doesn't feel like herself. She no longer holds all the cards or have all the answers anymore. She's alone and trapped with a bunch of murderous lunatics. It's not the fact that she's a woman and Booker is a man (or how Jack is a man or Atlas is a man). It's not anti-woman to be vulnerable or have flaws as a character. I mean, (our) Booker even died because he submitted to a group of Elizabeths.

Why Not Flood Rapture?: Simplest answer I guess would be because the little sisters (most importantly Sally) would die. The reason why she went to Rapture in the first place was that she exploited an innocent life as a set up for her own selfish reasons. As for letting a man finish off Atlas, odds are it's because she's at the end of her own mental and physical rope and she knows she's not in the position to fight back with meaningful results. Jack is the unsuspected wildcard, and she foresees he would be the sure thing to ensure Sally's safety (I guess the extra sting comes from how). Not to mention that Atlas would then be the "rube". His own Ace that he worked so hard to sic on Ryan would kill him and undo everything Atlas strived for.
(one could also argue that she couldn't in her current state if she didn't get control of the tears again)
 

Azahul

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As others have said, every time I heard Elizabeth say "I'm not like Booker" I heard it is as "I'm not willing to just kick the door down, shoot everyone in sight, and leave the moralising until after everyone else is dead". Booker had his redeeming features, but he was really not a very nice or good person.

Between the fact that her god-self predicted every event of Burial At Sea Episode 2, and that the driving motivation behind the actions in the game were Elizabeth's own guilt, I find it hard to see the events in the DLC as anything but Elizabeth's plan playing out. The fact that she has predicted every event, including Atlas's abuse, completely robs the male characters of their power and agency in how they act to Elizabeth. She knows what they are going to do, and she knows that despite it this sequence of events will play out for the better. For all the power Atlas and Ryan think they have over her, they're nothing more than puppets in a game she set in motion. It's hard for me to see that as anything less than completely empowering for Elizabeth, even if the game does seem to be giving her a pretty big martyr complex.
 

psijac

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JacksonDemolition said:
psijac said:
After murdering the last Comstock Elizabeth returns to Rapture to stop the exploitation of children except she doesn't just open a tear in the city and Flood the place, like the Biblical plague she can be. No she gives up all her powers and subjects herself the whims of an abusive man(Atlas) to set in motion a chain of event that will allow another man(Jack) to break the cycle of abuse.

She is constantly reminded she isn't as strong as her father and never will be. Even the entire game play is changed to suit a non confrontational role
Why would she do that? The Elizabeth I know would never do that. She knows there are innocent people in rapture.

She didn't go back to stop the exploitation of children. That will always happen in the world. She came to end the cycle of blood and death that Rapture and Columbia started.

Yes, she is not as strong as Booker. But she is smart enough to adapt. She reminds herself she is not like her father. "Just because your father did it one way, doesn't mean you have to."

She went back knowing what would happen after she died. But ultimately forgets the reason she came back. Before that she knew Jack would end up ending the cycle because OF HER ACTIONS. She started the end. No matter how you SPLICE it (lol kill me for making that pun), she made the events of BioShock 1 happen. She chose the best door.

Atlas is an asshole. Are you really surprised he hurt Elizabeth?

Expect hate, loads of it.
Why do you just assume this is the best door? Because you at told she is/was omniscient and its the best door because she choose it so it has to be the best door and she would only choose the best door. We know this because the door she choose was the best door...

The cycle of blood and death didn't start in Rapture until after she arrived. Things were pretty okay in Rapture it seems. In fact that was one of the things I loved about Burial at Sea part 1. You got to see how the society worked before everyone was killing each other for a scrap of Eve. Things were pretty okay in Columbia too, until Booker arrived. There was an underclass of people that were in constant threat of revolt but Ryan/Comstock looked to have a pretty solid grip on tyranny. She never mentions any problems with the political order or capitalistic/scientific values held before moral values.

JacksonDemolition said:
psijac said:
Dragonlayer said:
I haven't got the DLC (but I do have a friend who has it, so I suppose I can grill him over this point) but wouldn't flooding the city to stop exploitation of children just kill EVERYONE, innocent and guilty alike? The children may be slowly floating up to the surface as bloated, water-logged corpses, but at least men can't exploit them anymore!
And how many well adjusted happy healthy individuals did you run into while playing Bioshock one? Even if you suppose they where there just hidden behind the scenes. Many, many innocent people had to die during the Atlas/Ryan civil war. Little sister have incredible regenerative powers they might have survived rapid decompression.
We are talking about Burial at fucking Sea. Not the original BioShock.

Even if the Little Sisters survive its going to take a hell of a lot of time before they end up on the shores of some country/island.

Even so. Weren't there little boys in Rapture? Heck even the novel mentions kids other then Little Sisters.

Plus her doing that would be out of character. Do you imagine Elizabeth killing everyone without remorse?

Also, where is it in BioShock Infinite that she is an extreme religious person?

You are still yet to respond to my original post.
Assuming Elizabeth is still alive after the floods the City she can scoop them up herself or have the Lutuces get out the rowboat to pick them up. Then Elizabeth could take them to France and open up an orphanage. Then the entire story turns out to be a prequel to Madeline by Ludwig Bemelmans

I didn't bring up anything about her religious convictions or lack there of

By choosing this door she already has killed them. Every single one life Jack took to include Atlas and Andrew Ryan were the results of her choosing that door. Metaphorically speaking. She was at the Switch Board to control a train track, Sally was on that track and a train was coming. She hit the switch and Sally was saved but the train derailed and every single person on that train died.

I suppose you feel that Because Elizabeth didn't get her hands dirty then she is completely absolved of the death count that Ryan, Atlas and Jack racked up to complete their disagreement. If that is true then from your point of view I am completely wrong. and I can accept that.
 

TilMorrow

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Nooo but it makes a good point of massive time-space patriarchal genocide being bound to turn around and bite you in the ass at some point. Also she doesn't return to stop the exploitation of the Little Sisters but rather to help her younger alternate world self albeit with selfish intentions that caused Little Sister her to be in that position in the first place. Also she lost all her powers because she though she could be all chummy with a Big Daddy after roasting a Little Sister. Also the "I'm not Booker" line is relating to her not being so aggressive or brash or like his personality at all as she had seen him in Columbia but then again it's not actually true.
 

Rastrelly

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OP, I just hope you're overthinking things. Or else you have some serious issues. Really serious ones. As well as all the bunch starting topics like "OMG, is spaghetti anti-gay? They look all the same and we eat them! OMG, is white colour racist? I've never seen white colour to be black! OMG, is Heroes of Might and Magic III opposes native Americans? You can play against red-coloured player!"

And just to say: did you even understand what happened? Did you get Elisabeth DOES NOT WANT TO KILL ANYONE BUT COMSTOCK? She would never do such an atrocity like flooding some bunch of people to death! And she did not choose to loose hr powers - it just happened. Because she died. And her omnipotence was wiped by the same force, which gave her those powers. She was manipulated all the time between universes and times for some vague reason. This is the beauty of this story. And you fucking DARE to spoil it with you woman's right bullcrap?! I'm sick and tired of this bullshit. Take your ass, go to Iraq and tell some random guy to stop abusing women! If you'll survive you maybe gonna learn something.
 

Imre Csete

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I wouldn't look much into it, the whole DLC turned into a BioShock crossover fanfiction on the expense of Infinite.

We already know that BioShock is great, should have let Infinite do its own thing. -.-
 

Radeonx

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No, it isn't, and I think that you're over-thinking things way too much in order to rationalize the idea that it is sexist.

And even if your ideas did logically point to what you're saying not every single female character must be empowered and go through the story by force in order to not be sexist - diversity in characters is a wonderful thing.
 

RiseUp

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psijac said:
After murdering the last Comstock Elizabeth returns to Rapture to stop the exploitation of children except she doesn't just open a tear in the city and Flood the place, like the Biblical plague she can be. No she gives up all her powers and subjects herself the whims of an abusive man(Atlas) to set in motion a chain of event that will allow another man(Jack) to break the cycle of abuse.

She is constantly reminded she isn't as strong as her father and never will be. Even the entire game play is changed to suit a non confrontational role
What? First off, she makes a point about her distaste for all the bloodshed she and Booker caused (directly and indirectly) in Columbia, why would she murder an entire city of largely innocent people? In Episode 1 she toys with Booker/Comstock, finally revealing his identity to him just before she kills him, and she puts Sally in danger in the process. Why, when she's trying to atone for that, would it make any sort of sense for her to kill everyone?

Second, she doesn't willingly give up her powers, they were taken away by the same forces that gave them to her in the first place (rules that were always a bit ill-defined anyway). She works with Atlas out of necessity, because he could choose to kill her or Sally whenever he wanted. In the end, she dies, but is able to see a universe in which Jack finishes what she started. She didn't see her effort through to the end, but she was able to cause the simplest change so that someone could unwittingly take it from there, and that's what matters.

It's not that Elizabeth isn't as strong as Booker (you could argue that Episode 2's gameplay was much less a masculine gunstravaganza than playing as Booker was, if you're really looking to over-analyze things), you could argue that she was stronger, because she refused to follow in his footsteps and murder her way to a solution.

Did Episode 2 actually stand out to you as sexist or anti-feminist, or are you just trying to get discussion going? If you do think that, I think you're looking at it all wrong.
 

RiseUp

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JacksonDemolition said:
Dragonlayer said:
JacksonDemolition said:
Dragonlayer said:
JacksonDemolition said:
Dragonlayer said:
I haven't got the DLC (but I do have a friend who has it, so I suppose I can grill him over this point) but wouldn't flooding the city to stop exploitation of children just kill EVERYONE, innocent and guilty alike? The children may be slowly floating up to the surface as bloated, water-logged corpses, but at least men can't exploit them anymore!
100% agree. Yes kids and innocents might be rising up to the surface! But at least MEN (because Tenenbaum didn't have ANY involvement with the little sisters!) won't exploit them anymore!
I bet MEN forced her to willingly go along with all those amoral experiments she conducted on orphans! And I definitely know no MEN ever risked their own lives to rescue Little Sisters from insane and murderous hordes of genetic mutants!
I also bet only MEN had anything to do with Jacks creation! I also bet Zach was the one who forced Lady Comstock to put Elizabeth in that tower!
Goddamn MEN! Clearly at fault for everything negative in the Shock universe! It's only Big DADDIES who enslave the Little Sisters after all!
There is only MEN in Atlas's army! Sofia Lamb? BIOSHOCK 2 NEVER HAPPENED. ONLY MEN CAUSED RAPTURE TO FALL.
Actually I don't think Bioshock 2 ever did happen. Of course you can do just about anything in Infinite's multiverse, but Burial at Sea seems to retcon Bioshock 2 out of existence, or at least into a dark closet somewhere. Fontaine's Department Store is used as a prison for dissenters and rebels, filling the place of Persephone, it's implied that Big Daddies are created in Suchong's labs at this point in the timeline, again invalidating the need for Persephone, and there's no mention of Sophia Lamb anywhere. Granted, she was locked up in Persephone in Bioshock 2's timeline over a year before Burial at Sea, but she still had a good amount of followers throughout the city, through whom she maintained a lot of influence, and as we've established, it doesn't make sense for Persephone to exist in the first place.
 

Unsilenced

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>Female character doesn't literally commit genocide, murdering everyone including the children she was doing this all to protect in the first place.
>She's not "strong" enough of a character, is clearly just portraying women as weak.

There you have it folks. Until all female characters are heartless, mass-murdering psychopaths with hilariously inconsistent motives and morals, we can never have true equality.

[slowclap.gif]



I haven't played the DLC's, but while they do sound as stupidly contrived and utterly ass-pulled as Infinite, I don't think "woman-hating" really needs to be added to their list of faults.
 

Kuilui

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SPOILERS

The ending especially was what really just confused me a lot actually. Especially after the first wrench blow to the head. Atlas is like "What does this say!" Why wouldn't you just lie to him? You know hes going to brain you after you tell him anyway. It was just really stupid. The whole Sally thing just felt forced and contrived as well. Obviously Atlas is just going to use you and then murder you afterwards because he was a violent sociopath every time they met. She wasn't saving anyone, she knew it was not going to work out and she did it anyway. Killing Comstock is about as far as the plot got that made sense in the DLC's. The rest just seems moronic.

I don't think it was anti feminist. I think it was just the writers trying to shove everything together and make it work honestly. They used everything they could think of to tie it all together.
 

layden radeen

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I would say that things like the retooled combat losing the tear ability and dieing is in aid of the arc where Elizabeths quest to hunt down the variants of comstock has led her to give up the rest of her identity to the point where she may be cast now as a villain or at the very least a anti heroine and her last act being something to atone for that i am reminded of the line from the dark knight die a hero or live a villain

so no i do not think the DLC is anti feminist
 

Hazy

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I think this is as good of a thread to ask these questions in as any:

- How did Elizabeth know that Jack would save Sally? Didn't she lose her powers to be able to see through time?

- What made her think Atlas wouldn't just kill Sally as soon as she gave him the activation phrase? He had EVERYTHING he wanted, including her and the Adam inside of her, and nobody to stop him. Her idea of saving the girl was handing her over to the man who wanted to harvest her to begin with, without a fight?

- What's the deal with the plane lobotomy? Why did she perform this? WHEN did she perform this? It couldn't have been another Elizabeth, since this game makes it clear that this is the last one.

- How is there only one Elizabeth remaining? The man who escaped the purge was shown to be Comstock at the end of Episode 1, who ends up killing Anna in his respective timeline before being relocated to Rapture. Wouldn't that mean Elizabeth wouldn't exist, since she's born from Booker, and not the infertile Comstock? The only explanation would be that Anna from the very end of the main game grows up to be that same Elizabeth, but following the game's very own logic they JUST showed us at the end of Episode 1, wouldn't that Anna be dead?

Whhhhyyyy?
 

psijac

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Rastrelly said:
OP, I just hope you're overthinking things. Or else you have some serious issues. Really serious ones. As well as all the bunch starting topics like "OMG, is spaghetti anti-gay? They look all the same and we eat them! OMG, is white colour racist? I've never seen white colour to be black! OMG, is Heroes of Might and Magic III opposes native Americans? You can play against red-coloured player!"

And just to say: did you even understand what happened? Did you get Elisabeth DOES NOT WANT TO KILL ANYONE BUT COMSTOCK? She would never do such an atrocity like flooding some bunch of people to death! And she did not choose to loose hr powers - it just happened. Because she died. And her omnipotence was wiped by the same force, which gave her those powers. She was manipulated all the time between universes and times for some vague reason. This is the beauty of this story. And you fucking DARE to spoil it with you woman's right bullcrap?! I'm sick and tired of this bullshit. Take your ass, go to Iraq and tell some random guy to stop abusing women! If you'll survive you maybe gonna learn something.
She was omnipotent. That means she knew exactly how many people would die due to Ryan, Atlas, Jack entering the City. She knew their motivations and knew which actions they took and whether they would be constants or variables. Being the highest intelligence on the playing field she carries all the moral responsibility for the death caused by their actions.

Lets say I find three hungry, vicious pit bulls* to fight to the death and throw them all into an arena with a bunch of chickens. They murder everything insight including each other. Am I not responsible for the bloodshed that occurred?

She didn't flood them to death but from a moral stand point she might as well have.

Subjecting yourself to the whims of an abusive man(Atlas) to protect a child, while waiting for another man(Jack) to solve your problems does not make you a hero. This isn't a lifetime movie



*Pit Bulls can have a very gentle demeanor if raised in a loving home
 

psijac

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Hazy said:
I think this is as good of a thread to ask these questions in as any:

- How did Elizabeth know that Jack would save Sally? Didn't she lose her powers to be able to see through time?

- What made her think Atlas wouldn't just kill Sally as soon as she gave him the activation phrase? He had EVERYTHING he wanted, including her and the Adam inside of her, and nobody to stop him. Her idea of saving the girl was handing her over to the man who wanted to harvest her to begin with, without a fight?

- What's the deal with the plane lobotomy? Why did she perform this? WHEN did she perform this? It couldn't have been another Elizabeth, since this game makes it clear that this is the last one.

- How is there only one Elizabeth remaining? The man who escaped the purge was shown to be Comstock at the end of Episode 1, who ends up killing Anna in his respective timeline before being relocated to Rapture. Wouldn't that mean Elizabeth wouldn't exist, since she's born from Booker, and not the infertile Comstock? The only explanation would be that Anna from the very end of the main game grows up to be that same Elizabeth, but following the game's very own logic they JUST showed us at the end of Episode 1, wouldn't that Anna be dead?

Whhhhyyyy?
-She saw jack save Sally before she lost her powers.

-Maybe he was too busy/excited about getting the Ace in the hole ready to think about the little sister

-I have no idea where the plane bathroom scene fits into all of this. I just assumed it was foreshadowing to make the torture scene more terrifying.

-No clue
 

Felix the Human

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How is taking away a character's Omnipotence anti-Feminist? simply because the character is female? If the writers had let her keep her powers, you'd probably hear a bunch of people call her a Mary Sue.

Sorry for sounding hyperbolic about this, but it seems like every time a female character is brought up in gaming it's almost always about either sexism, Mary-sue's, or Feminism. and it's getting rather ridiculous. ask yourself this, If Elizabeth was a male character, would you even care?

and on top of that, just because Liz isn't as physically strong as her male predecessor doesn't mean it's a direct attack on her gender. She was never the body builder type so expecting her to go head to head with the Big Daddy after losing her tear abilities was just plain unrealistic. It's not a bad thing that she's weaker than Booker, she's just a different kind of fighter. that was established in her introduction. besides it adds to her development as a character to see what happens when someone who used to be all powerful is forced to survive without that power.

so no, I don't this is anti-feminist. all you've really pointed out are obvious plot holes.