Poll: Is soliciting a prostitute an anti-feminist act/demeaning to women?

[2012 Wont Happen]

I view pimping as demeaning as a pimp is one person who sells the bodies of other people as a product. Having sex with a prostitute who has sex for money of her own accord is not particularly dehumanizing. It is simply the height of capitalism.

 

[Snowbell]

It's demeaning to yourself that you're so desperate for sex that you have to hire someone for it.

I'd like to say 'it's not demeaning for the woman because she chose to become a prostitute', but a high percentage of those women are only doing it because of how badly they need money, so I guess the gocernment is the one demeaning the women for not providing them adequate funds/methods of earning to look after themselves/their children.

 

[Thaluikhain]

And just as a side note, Feminism is really more about equality between all people, which is why you often see feminists groups go to town on racists or ableists, as well as misogynists.

I very strongly disagree there. Yes, there are feminists who are aware of intersectionality, but there are very many that don't.

Go to (for example) any "womanist" site, and read what they think about feminists and race issues.

I thought it was pronounced 'womyn' (since there should be no 'man' in there)? Or is it something different?

Womanism is a response by what you'd otherwise call black feminists at being excluded. They had to go off and form their own group, because they saw regular feminism as being dominated by white women who didn't want racism pointed out to them. You see similar complaints about how they are excluded from race issues by black men who don't want to hear about sexism.

One of the complaints about Slutwalk is that the leaders in many areas deliberately kept black woman out of it, because non-white people in the photos would "confuse the issue" or whatever. There was also a reasonably well-publicised of a white woman attending with a sign saying "woman is the new ******", and refusing to listen to black women who weren't happy with that, with the people in charge taking her side, IIRC.

 

[2012 Wont Happen]

It's demeaning to yourself that you're so desperate for sex that you have to hire someone for it.

I'd like to say 'it's not demeaning for the woman because she chose to become a prostitute', but a high percentage of those women are only doing it because of how badly they need money, so I guess the gocernment is the one demeaning the women for not providing them adequate funds/methods of earning to look after themselves/their children.

Needing money is the only reason people take on any job they don't want to do. Just ask any fast food worker with a college degree.

 

[Piorn]

It's just like a fashion model, you sell your body for money.
Men can be models and prostitutes too, so it's not inherently sexist.


Wait... is it sexist if a heterosexual male only hires female prostitutes?

 

[Abomination]

Womanism is a response by what you'd otherwise call black feminists at being excluded. They had to go off and form their own group, because they saw regular feminism as being dominated by white women who didn't want racism pointed out to them. You see similar complaints about how they are excluded from race issues by black men who don't want to hear about sexism.

One of the complaints about Slutwalk is that the leaders in many areas deliberately kept black woman out of it, because non-white people in the photos would "confuse the issue" or whatever. There was also a reasonably well-publicised of a white woman attending with a sign saying "woman is the new ******", and refusing to listen to black women who weren't happy with that, with the people in charge taking her side, IIRC.

Haha, oh wow. I wish I could say I am surprised that that type of thing happens but upon reflection it seems par the course for most movements these days. Tripping over themselves and doing more harm to their own movement than any supposed bogeyman could.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Womanism is a response by what you'd otherwise call black feminists at being excluded. They had to go off and form their own group, because they saw regular feminism as being dominated by white women who didn't want racism pointed out to them. You see similar complaints about how they are excluded from race issues by black men who don't want to hear about sexism.

One of the complaints about Slutwalk is that the leaders in many areas deliberately kept black woman out of it, because non-white people in the photos would "confuse the issue" or whatever. There was also a reasonably well-publicised of a white woman attending with a sign saying "woman is the new ******", and refusing to listen to black women who weren't happy with that, with the people in charge taking her side, IIRC.

Haha, oh wow. I wish I could say I am surprised that that type of thing happens but upon reflection it seems par the course for most movements these days. Tripping over themselves and doing more harm to their own movement than any supposed bogeyman could.

Well, it's to be expected. If society as a whole mistreats X, there's no reason to think the people fighting to end mistreatment of Y or Z would be much different, you'd get people holding those views in the same proportions.

OTOH, this has been the case forever, and progress in various fields has been made despite it. But it's always hilarious/exasperating when people talk about, feminism, say as a monolithic whole out to do X, Y or Z scary things, when in reality they spend most of their time arguing with all the other activists. Certain scenes of "Life of Brian" come to mind.

 

[Polarity27]

You are treating the woman's body as an object, you are not procuring a service, you are procuring using her body.

It is demeaning in the purest sense.

Now weather the woman feels offended by it or not is up to her.

But it is textbook definition of demeaning. Treating someone as an object.

I've heard a lot of sex workers and ex-sex workers say it was a lot like providing therapy, which suggests that conversation, seduction, and fantasy were as/more important than just the body-physics of it, so I'd disagree with this.

OT: My answer is pretty much "what Katatori said". It *shouldn't* be demeaning to the sex worker (whether male or female). I recently read a fantasy series that was pretty good all around and I especially loved this world's approach to sex work. Pleasure houses were common things, the workers were generally treated well, and it was considered a completely normal, unexceptional thing to do for both sexes to go to one, even if married or otherwise partnered. Sex in this culture is treated as a physical urge, and there were several instances of both men and women being told "look, we've got a big battle tomorrow and you're completely distracted because you're all bottled-up-horniness. Will you *please* go to the pleasure house and fix that?" Virgins were especially likely to go to pleasure houses to be taught how to please their intended gender (same-sex relationships are also common in this culture). I was struck with how *sensible* the whole thing was, and how useful that attitude would be in the real world for all manner of people. I think it would be fantastic if we could have a system like this.

But Katatori's right; in the real world, we don't, and we *do* have a lot of people who are coerced, including some who put up a "this is my choice and I love it" front when that's not reality, so that they can survive and pay the bills. I don't know how a prospective john (or jill-- that's the other thing I loved about the fantasy world's brothels, that it was just as common for both straight women and bi/lesbian women to go to sex workers) would go about being really, truly certain that his or her sex worker chose their work without coercion unless they otherwise know them. No, I don't think the idea itself is demeaning to women or an anti-feminist act, but I do think given how skeevy the dynamics often are in sex work, the action may have that effect.

 

[XzarTheMad]

Is it demeaning to the woman? No more than regular sex, I would imagine. It depends on how you define "demeaning", though.
Is it demeaning to women in general? No. What one person, regardless of gender, decides to do does not reflect in any way on the entirety of their gender or sex. A problem I find with modern feminism is the perceived ability to speak on behalf of the entire body of women everywhere. I firmly believe that there are plenty of prostitutes out there, at least in my country, who do what they do because they enjoy it. To have other women, or anyone, categorize that job as "demeaning" because it violates their personal, arbitrary moral guidelines is both wrong and stupid from my point of view.

If we are talking people getting forced into the sex-trade and/or becoming sex-slaves, that's a whole different thing altogether. From my perspective, a prostitute is a woman of free will who has decided to sell sex, for whatever reason. I find nothing that could hurt feminism or the female gender in general from that.

 

[Lieju]

Not in itself, no.

But considering how you can't be certain they truly ARE consenting to it, you are supporting a system where women get abused. (men too, but can anyone tell me how many men are forced or quasi-forced into it?)

Just legalise it. Have the prostitutes be protected by law and it be open bussiness. Then I'd have no issue with it.

 

[Mr F.]

As long as the prostitute is in it of her own accord and she has full control over who she has sex with, paying her for sex is not an act that is "demeaning to women".

Now, pimping and forcing women into prostitution, that's a crime and one should at least be slapped around a bit with a large trout for it.

Also, I like (making) a good understatement.

Um.

*scrolls through first page*

Seems no-one, on the first page at least, made the obvious counter argument.

You find me a prostitute who is totally and utterly willing to do what she is doing and has not been exploited in any way and I will find you a Unicorn. Technically, in some hitherto unknown place on earth there might be a Unicorn, much like technically in some hitherto unknown area on earth there might be a prostitute who is totally and utterly willing to do her job.

Thing is, I am not really wanting to get dragged into this. Which is strange, because I am quoting you and everything, but what is the point? You can point to your mythical situation, which is technically fair enough, as vindication for your belief.

But in reality, the vast majority of prostitutes have been exploited massively. Talking the whole "Human trafficking, drugs trade" crap. Even in legal places they find people who have been trafficked halfway across the world. If it is on a street corner moreso. Prostitution is a shit trade, it is utterly foul and demeaning for everyone involved. Would I call it anti-feminist? Massively.

But then again I am a man who hates porn for the above reasons so I know I am in the minority here.

I think I will step out.

Captcha: Danish Robot Dancers.

Yes Captcha, I agree utterly.

EDIT:

I would rather be raped than be convicted on a rape I did not commit. For having been raped can be a private thing that would affect me as much as I allow it to.

*Facepalm*

Yeah, what's with all these traumatised rape victims anyway? Don't they know that being raped only affects you as much as you allow it to? Geez.

Actually, I see that point. Very narrowly avoiding a rape was terrifying and revolting and has damaged my life almost irrepairably. Yet being falsely accused of rape caused me to leave my college, then my city and then briefly the country. I still live in fear that someone who used to know me might appear in my life and rekindle those bullshit accusations and I might have to up sticks and move again.

One destroys trust and makes it impossible to be around people sometimes.

The other creates hate. Instant, visceral hate. You look at someone who used to be your friend and all you can see is rage in their eyes, you sit down in a room and watch people move away from you, you walk home and someone punches you in the stomach or kicks your knee out from behind you because "You know what you did".

Which makes it worse. You know what you did, nothing. You know that your protestations that you did nothing will never be listened to. Those who stick with you face similar, not the physical violence, but the bubbling hatred of "How can you be around him?". Now, I disagree with you being able to "Choose" how something like that affects you.

But a false accusation is almost impossible to disprove (Not in the eyes of the law, let me get that right that I think that it should be far, FAR easier to be convicted of rape). I was just a random 18 year old whos ex girlfriend had a very vindictive friend who wanted to destroy me. The girlfriend in question never confirmed or denied the rumours, she didnt have to. Once they got out they spread.

One day I might try and go into politics. And if that rumour resurfaces you can kiss my political career goodbye.

 

[Thaluikhain]

The other creates hate. Instant, visceral hate. You look at someone who used to be your friend and all you can see is rage in their eyes, you sit down in a room and watch people move away from you, you walk home and someone punches you in the stomach or kicks your knee out from behind you because "You know what you did".

Which makes it worse. You know what you did, nothing. You know that your protestations that you did nothing will never be listened to. Those who stick with you face similar, not the physical violence, but the bubbling hatred of "How can you be around him?". Now, I disagree with you being able to "Choose" how something like that affects you.

That often does happen to rape victims too, though. Victim blaming is no small thing.

 

[Abomination]

I would rather be raped than be convicted on a rape I did not commit. For having been raped can be a private thing that would affect me as much as I allow it to.

*Facepalm*

Yeah, what's with all these traumatised rape victims anyway? Don't they know that being raped only affects you as much as you allow it to? Geez.

Your mileage may vary

Notice I didn't say it was a private thing that would affect "YOU as much as YOU allow it to". No, I said ME.

Of course, I clearly am judging everyone who has ever been raped and traumatized by it because I didn't add a paragraph long disclaimer explaining that when I say "I" I mean I and not "everyone". Next I'll be required to explain how many bad things I've been through to possibly justify my confidence in my ability to not be traumatized by shit. Then someone will say "rape is the worst thing that can ever happen to someone" or something.

I would rather be raped than convicted of rape when I did no such thing.

Your mileage my vary.

 

[theSteamSupported]

Are you willing to sell yourself to others as a temporary sex toy? If the answer is no, then shut the f**k up about what you think about prostitution.

What I think? Anyone who has a strong opinion about this subject, should go meet actual sex workers and former sex workers, to hear what they have to say. Then you may draw conclusions from their experiences. I have yet to do so.

 

[astrav1]

Really?

We're seriously still fucking doing this on these forums?

*sigh*

No, it is not demeaning if the woman sells sex of her own free will, it's a service like any other and is legal in many countries.

What are you talking about? Women can never have or enjoy sex by their choice unless some ill humor has possessed them. Next thing you know they'll want to vote. Can't wait to see 17 more of the goddamn threads within the next week.

 

[DugMachine]

No, it's a service that these girls get into on their own. Some countries it's probably forced but I wouldn't go buying prostitutes in a third world country, let alone a first world for fear of STDs.

Also, cougars and older women with money to blow also get male prostitutes or 'escorts' so it's all fair game.

 

[axlryder]

Secondly, what. No, seriously, what. Being falsely convicted of rape would be worse than being raped? No. Flat out no. Unless you're raped in prison, in which case you would be right because only rape can be as bad as rape.

ahahahaha

I'm so fucking tired of people playing up rape like it's "TEH WORST THING EVAR". Rape is horrible. Yeah. Certain situations under which rape occurs can definitely fuck a person up permanently. Other situations can destroy a person. I would know. But lemme tell you: there are worse things. Fuck, maybe to you it IS the worst thing imaginable. You don't speak for everyone.

Personally, I'd actually rather be violently raped again rather than take a 10 year jail sentence for a crime I didn't commit. At least then I wouldn't be robbed of a decade of my life and then have the rest of it possibly ruined for something I never did. To have people believe I'm a rapist when I'm not. To know my life was destroyed because of someone's selfish, petty desire. That's not even accounting for all the horrible, non-rape related things that could (and probably would) happen to me in jail. That said, I can definitely see how someone would not feel that way about that particular thing. Who knows, maybe rape seems easier to deal with the second time around after you've had a chance to reconcile. Of course, it's ultimately it's a matter of opinion, not some black and white fact.

 

[drisky]

I know one thing, this forum is woefully unqualified to decided what is and isn't feminist. A large percentage down rate hates feminism.

I'm going to go with the side that says it is if just for the nature of the industry alone. Its maybe debatable if some legitimate protected career, but if you are looking to pay for sex, you never know how much consent is really involved and you are feeding into an industry that often is forced. This isn't a question about the morality of the prostate, its a question of the morality of client, who has no idea how much consent is involved.