Poll: Is StarCraft really the quintessential RTS?

[brenflood]

@ Z4N5H1N

My friend managed to pull off the Dark Archon thing all the time in network games we played at a LAN center. He kinda cheated a tad though. I mean he always asked his allies to give him an SCV and Zerg builder unit. Perhaps this is more difficult to pull off now as well???

Right, as for the spawning pool patch, I played long before that patch. I think 2002 is that last time I played Starcraft.

 

[Jazzyluv]

Starcraft is a game that actually has a learning curve. The game is easy to pick up on. pretty simple actually, but its how the simplicity combines to create a gem. Personally i like perfecting techniques, improving micro. Ive never played a game where build orders were so important, so knowing how to respond is so important. Ive been playing for weeks trying to improve my mutalisk micro, and its still fun. I know most people don't like getting trounced, but games like that keep people humble.

I also hate playing single player games where you are not truly "thinking" no on the fly counters, no true unpredictability. That's what makes multiplayer games great. Variety.

 

[DontHate]

Wow... I was shocked at the number of people here that will respond to a topic with little or NO understanding of a game at all... Makes me think of leaving these forums at least. It was really hard reading through 3 pages of this...

I'd just like to say I think SC is a great RTS. It redefined RTS games by giving 3 totally distinct races that were all completely balance.

The entire game is balanced, and only strategies like fast zergling rush (4pool), massing carriers, and massing cannons work if the player uses good scouting and good micro/macro. If a player decides to say "oh i'm gonna zergling rush" it does not automatically mean that strategy will win him the game. I swear to god if someone says the zergling rush is op I will go insane. It takes a lot of micromanagement to pull it off (and a lot of luck with scouting).

A common noob thing to say is "the protoss are overpowering". This begs me to ask you all if you've ever played a game that uses any form of resources... The protoss are meant to have powerful, pricey units. Terran have the mid-class units, whilst zerg have cheap and dispensable units. Every unit has it's counters. Some to remember - Wraiths/scourge/corsairs are good vs big air (carriers). Iradi/goons/lings are good vs heavy ground units (ultra). These "big" units all have counters and are not invulnerable. It takes a lot of thinking and strategy to use them because they are also very expensive. I chose not to mention the explosive/concussive damage though. It'd take too long.

And finnally... SC came out 2 years BEFORE RA2 (which it is most compared to). I found that SC's control system, balance, online, and races were far superior. Let alone the graphics.
RA2
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9e/Nukelaunch.jpg
SC
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2f/Zerg_colony_(StarCraft).png
SC is being compared to other games that came out YEARS later(DoW), where new technologies and concepts (even from SC itself) have arisen.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

I believe you're thinking of APM (actions per minute) not CPM. And its not APM or CPM that decides who wins in a Starcraft match. I've seen progamers with 60 or less APM beat progamers with 400 or more. It all amounts to the strategy and tactics they use.

APM/CPM/DPS basically all mean the same thing.

60 APM is still very tough playing. That's one action a second on average.

Starcraft WOULD be the best RTS if the units had a modicum of AI, like the Science Vessels auto-retreating if 3 or more aerial units came into range; but as it stands it's more a RT/APM. Against a Computer on Hard, I can just get a 4-lined Tank protected bunker up before the Zerg Rush decimates my front lines.

The problem comes from the fact you have to hold down the defence, economy and offence at the same time; against a superior enemy; and even Sun Tzu says "Don't fight that battle".

 

[Rack]

Back when I played Starcraft (which was a LONG time ago) no-one ever played Terrans so I suspect Starcraft got it's classic game status by being ahead of its time at the right time, and the reason it's so balanced is because of 10 years of corrections.

But I wouldn't say it's the quintessential RPG because of the number of features that strategy games have added in the last 10 years.

 

[RX Bandit]

of course other RTS's r going to have more features now, thats what happens, genre's evolve or no one cares. Starcraft is the quintessential rts because until that time there was NO balance in RTS's, either every race was the same or one was clearly superior. I have yet to see another RTS match the variety of gameplay styles that starcraft allows, whether it be the defensive terrans, technolgically superior but expensive protoss, or cheap mass producing zerg

i personally played as terran, gotta luv the battlecruisers/valkeryies for air superiority
siege tanks pwn ALL!

 

[dondekong64]

Unlike many other RTS's, SC only became popular because of its PERFECT balance. It took years for Blizzard to finally achieve that through various updates, but they finally got it right. This is why SC is a national "sport" in Korea, and is televised.

Professional players consistently form new, interesting strategies. The gameplay element of SC is very simple and fast-paced compared to more recent RTS's, which keeps the game easy to understand, but the many ingenious strategies that can be used keep the player and viewers engrossed in the game.

 

[TheIceface]

Alright, I'm giving up this bullshit zergling rush is overpowering (is too, is not, is too, is not). It is, and everyone who doesn't have a Blizzard shrine in their closet realizes it.

Was SC a great game? Yeah, I think it was. It wasn't one of the best games I've ever played by far, but it has a very important place in the history of video games.

Before you think I just hate Blizzard (and call me noob like 40 more times) let me let you in on a little piece of info:

You know that company Actiblizzard (activision + blizzard), of course you do. The one with the HQ located @ 3100 ocean park blvd. Santa Monica California?
I worked there, I'm not some know-nothing noob, I'm a professional, I have experience, and I got paid a lot of money to give critique on the games they made.

I know what I'm talking about, but I'm not going to argue since your dedication to the game as a whole obscures your judgment about its contents. Its OK, I understand, I have a friend who thinks that George W. Bush is a saint for the sole reason that he is a republican. Same deal.

 

[Knight Templar]

Allright, I know when I'll go too far and get baned, so I won't get into this.

But....

Your problem with it is its an RTS with no gimic, most people like the user friendly simply-complex interface.

But you don't like it so fair enough, it is still a great game through no matter what you think. If a game sucked based on one person all games by squaresoft would suck because of me, and I guess they don't.

Now I want you to go to korea and say something like this.

 

[TheIceface]

But you don't like it so fair enough, it is still a great game through no matter what you think. If a game sucked based on one person all games by squaresoft would suck because of me, and I guess they don't.

Now I want you to go to korea and say something like this.

I do like the game, I just don't like playing it when zergling rushes are involved every round.

Just because something is popular, doesn't mean its any good. Heroin is pretty popular, but I doubt many doctors would perscribe it to you. In reference to games, massively popular ones include Runescape and GunZ, both of which are terrible BTW.

BTW, I'm in China right now (they love SC almost as much as Koreans), I mentioned something about "Oh this game sucks!" completely out of sarcasm. Rather than getting angry, or discussing it, the Chinese were more surprised that I formed my own opinion, group mentality is a really strong behavior here.

 

[GenHellspawn]

I'd say Starcraft is not the quintessential RTS, but I would suggest these ones.

Command and Conquer: As mentioned before, this basically jumpstarted the genre. It's actually not that different from the run of the mill RTS when you look at it, but there's something about it that makes the process of having a skirmish game much more fun and robust

Company of Heroes: Sure, it's a World War 2 game, but it's actually quite inventive in the way that the unit-by-unit combat is conducted, especially the cover system, and armor flanking on tanks.

 

[Larry Laffer]

I believe you are grossly misinterpreting the other guy's point. Sure, a zerg rush is pretty easy to defend against. I've even fended off my fair share of them, and I am possibly the worst player I know. Still, the fact that such a simple rush maneuver exists and is used far too often in casual online play, NOT tournament play, is simply annoying as hell. It's also why I haven't played the game in a few years. So, maybe that fact has changed.

Did it occured to you that you're losing because you're the worst player you know, rather than because of a rush technique? If I slash a baby's throat with a knife, is it because I have a knife or because my opponent is a damn baby?

My friend managed to pull off the Dark Archon thing all the time in network games we played at a LAN center. He kinda cheated a tad though. I mean he always asked his allies to give him an SCV and Zerg builder unit. Perhaps this is more difficult to pull off now as well???

Mc'ing a drone or scv is hardly ever used in B.net, and will actually give the toss player a disadvantage, even in your noob LAN games, so don't insist that these techniques work in casual games but not tournament games. Even though your psi limit can be raised from 200 to 600, you now have to divide your economy for building a brand new queue of buildings for each new race you mc'ed. These resources can be spend by your opponents in units instead of buildings and tech, and by the time he has reached his psi limit, you'll be completely defenseless against him. Furthermore, the variety of tech, spells and units for each race will cover all your needs (each race has a good unit for everything. f.e. for range against turrets, zerg have guardians, terran have siege tanks, and toss have reavers), and that's why noone ever does this, but your friend apparently.

Right, as for the spawning pool patch, I played long before that patch. I think 2002 is that last time I played Starcraft.

The patch for 200 min for pool was out before 2002

I view the move as unfair. Contrary to your belief I am actually fairly skilled at the game(or I was before I got tired of it), and I can defend against the move. However its a hassle, and is so widely used that it rips all the fun from the game. Which is why I've moved on to more interesting and balanced games, not because starcraft is old, but because it is so abused.

Oh so now the move is not overpowering, its just a hassle then.. If you could really defend against it, you wouldn't wine like a ***** you are, you'd know how to counter-attack and win against a ling rush and the conversation would end here. The bottom line is, you're noob and you're trying to play with players above your level in battlenet. So what happens is, they send a scout, see that your defenses suck, and decide to save a few minutes of their life by killing you off at the beginning. There's no shitting around in starcraft like the other gay games you play.(let's spend 30 mins of our life gathering resources and building thousands of buildings, and we can clash our massive armies after.. how fun!)

Thats handy, I don't think I'd accept even 1 fuck from you, although you do seem charming.

Yeah, I am charming and I fuck really good. ask your mom, she'll tell you all about it

Do not divorce your wife, don't do it man. Bad idea. You're not going to find another woman willing to put up with you. In fact I have doubts that you even have a wife.

(That wasn't nice, I already feel awful using an unfair tactic against you. Its not very gentlemanly of me.) <<[Irony is here.]

That's a great anecdote. You should write that down on your journal. Then your kids can read about it, when you're dead!

Good Work! I think you just zergling rushed his wife!

How would you like if I zergling rushed your asshole? Talk only if you're talked to

I can't believe it took a full 2 pages, the quintessential RTS is Dune 2 because it defined the RTS genre so it is by default the purest representation of the genre.

Dune 2 was great, and indeed the first of its kind, and props go to Westwood Studios for that. But would you rather play Dune 2 or starcraft now? Because Starcraft is still the most played rts RIGHT NOW, after 10 years of its release.

That said, some people will prefer such a game as Starcraft over one like Rome: Total War, and I tend to waver. The question, however, was whether or not Starcraft is the quintessential RTS, not whether or not it is a good one. That is out of the question as Starcraft is nearly perfect unto itself.

Starcraft is the quintessential RTS because as a player you need to focus on attack strategies, microing your units AND managing/expanding your bases. Total War is just a war game. I'm not saying its not good, or that there's no strategy involved, but it can hardly be described as an RTS.

Alright, I'm giving up this bullshit zergling rush is overpowering (is too, is not, is too, is not). It is

You're like the archetype of a closed minded idiot.. Even when you're left with no arguements, you'll still stick with your retarded beliefs. You're not much far off than your republican buddy you know.

You know that company Actiblizzard (activision + blizzard), of course you do. The one with the HQ located @ 3100 ocean park blvd. Santa Monica California?
I worked there, I'm not some know-nothing noob, I'm a professional, I have experience, and I got paid a lot of money to give critique on the games they made.

Being a game-tester hardly makes you a professional, and if the advice you gave them was similar to the critique you're giving Starcraft today ("ling rush is tough, kkkaaaay?"), then I feel sorry for blizzard, spending 3 bucks an hour to hear about this. Or is it 2 bucks an hour, I'm not quite sure how much a game-tester wages...

I know what I'm talking about, but I'm not going to argue since your dedication to the game as a whole obscures your judgment about its contents.

No you don't. And it's not our dedication to the game, it's just that we know better. Unless you can provide any valid arguement to prove ling rush is overpowering other than "my friends in my LAN always do it to me, and it harrases me n' stuff", then you can feel free to stfu

 

[Spacelord]

It has nothing to do with being the best, it has nothing to do with even liking the game. The fact remains that StarCraft set the bar for RTSs and remains the standard by which we judge the genre.

What this guy said.

Personally, I've always preferred Starcraft over C&C.

 

[SimpleReally]

Until generals came out, C&C games (especially red alert) were mostly clones with minor improvements each time, their attempts to rip off the funny unit quotes introduced in warcraft (read: blizzard innovated something, believe it or not) come off as pathetic.

P.S. having 1 different unit and a 10% discount on infantry does not make a faction unique

 

[TheIceface]

Did it occured to you that you're losing because you're the worst player you know, rather than because of a rush technique? If I slash a baby's throat with a knife, is it because I have a knife or because my opponent is a damn baby?

It really is the knife; even if it wasn't a baby, fighting an unarmed enemy with a knife is a bit of an unfair advantage. Even if the other guy happens to be good at fighting.
Likewise using an unfair technique puts the other player at an initial disadvantage regardless of his skill level.

BTW not only is using "occured" improper grammar in that sentence, but you spelled it incorrectly.

Mc'ing a drone or scv is hardly ever used in B.net, and will actually give the toss player a disadvantage, even in your noob LAN games... and that's why noone ever does this, but your friend apparently.

Now that is a bit unfair, I applaud that guy for having real friends that he can meet at LAN games. Social contact should be encouraged, not disparaged. On top of that, it takes a little bit more skill to take a bunch of computers and set up LAN games than simply logging on to Battle.net, I see nothing "noobish" about it.

Aside from that, the rest of your (Laffer's) comment was very insightful. Except that you forgot the space in "noone".

Oh so now the move is not overpowering, its just a hassle then.. If you could really defend against it, you wouldn't wine like a ***** you are, you'd know how to counter-attack and win against a ling rush and the conversation would end here. The bottom line is, you're noob and you're trying to play with players above your level in battlenet. So what happens is, they send a scout, see that your defenses suck, and decide to save a few minutes of their life by killing you off at the beginning. There's no shitting around in starcraft like the other gay games you play.(let's spend 30 mins of our life gathering resources and building thousands of buildings, and we can clash our massive armies after.. how fun!)

First off, in no part of my quote did I say the move was not overpowering. It is unfair, not unstoppable, thus making it an annoying hassle. Secondly you said I "wine", wine is a noun, the word you want is "whine". The comma at the end of "...***** you are" should be a semicolon.
Then you point out I wouldn't complain if I could defend against it. Like I've mentioned multiple times before, I can defend against it, however, it is annoying to do so.

You then mention shitting and gay games. I don't think I have any games that have either of the two incorporated anywhere within them. I'm not sure which games you're referring to; I would appreciate examples if you are going to make accusations.

Yeah, I am charming and I fuck really good. ask your mom, she'll tell you all about it

I don't have a mom, my dad and I share yours.


Also, you forgot a comma after "charming", you used "good" (which is an adjective) instead of saying "fuck really well" ("well" being an adverb) as you should have.

That's a great anecdote. You should write that down on your journal. Then your kids can read about it, when you're dead!

It wasn't an anecdote, an anecdote is a short, witty, story. What I gave you was more of a logical explanation.
You should also really combine the last two sentences as well; it doesn't flow smoothly with that period in there.
I also don't have a journal, I have better things to do with my time than pretend anyone cares what I had for breakfast, or other trivial things.

Lastly, why wait till I'm dead to tell your siblings my witty anecdotes? <<==(Look hard, I hid a clever "your mom"-type joke in this sentence.)

How would you like if I zergling rushed your asshole? Talk only if you're talked to

That sentence is in need of some ending punctuation, I suggest an exclamation mark, it looks like an upside-down "i".
Last time I checked this was a forum, a form of open discussion. I don't think you are in the position to be demanding that other people .

You're like the archetype of a closed minded idiot.. Even when you're left with no arguements, you'll still stick with your retarded beliefs. You're not much far off than your republican buddy you know.

Firstly "closed minded" is hyphenated. Secondly "arguements" isn't spelled correctly.

You should look and see how much more your quote applies to me than you. I say:
"Usually the case is this: You start the match, a grip of zergling rush your base and kill your offensive characters. If you kill the invading force, the opponent often drops out of the game. The zergling are quick to make, fast moving, and have some offensive capabilities, unlike the pathetic SCVs. This makes it too easy to perform a rush."

While you pretty much counter with: "Nuh uh! Your rong! You are a nubb and a stupid."

Being a game-tester hardly makes you a professional, and if the advice you gave them was similar to the critique you're giving Starcraft today ("ling rush is tough, kkkaaaay?"), then I feel sorry for blizzard, spending 3 bucks an hour to hear about this. Or is it 2 bucks an hour, I'm not quite sure how much a game-tester wages...

The wages are actually more around 10-15$ per hour for bottom level testers, free gym memberships, and special discounts on all company games: 5$ per PC title, 15$ for 360/ps3 titles, ps2/Wii/PSP/GBA are all 10$. On top of all that, this company hands out free games and swag like beads at Mardi Gras. Senior testers make more like 20-40$/hr. and leads make even more than that.

Oh, and BTW, being a video game QA tester does, in fact, make me a professional "game nitpicker". Since it was my profession to complain about the problems in games, that makes me a professional.

No you don't. And it's not our dedication to the game, it's just that we know better. Unless you can provide any valid arguement to prove ling rush is overpowering other than "my friends in my LAN always do it to me, and it harrases me n' stuff", then you can feel free to stfu

You forgot a comma after "No", and you never start a sentence with "and". Also, you spelled "arguement" and "harrases" incorrectly. "Ling" should have an apostrophe at the beginning since part of the word was left out, same thing as contractions like "can't" and "don't".On top of that, "stfu" should really be capitalized since its an acronym; like SCUBA and LASER. I'll the last one slide though; I'm just that nice of a guy.

Oh, and I have provided an argument as to why the move is unbalanced, however your counterpoint seems to just be, "If this move annoys you, then your are a nooby noobhead." Which really doesn't nullify my point at all.

 

[Wolves]

"Also, you forgot a comma after "charming""

No, that is not necessary. The comma would only be required if he was listing 3 or more things. The word "yeah" is not part of a list, and therefore a comma is not required.

"Now that is a bit unfair, I applaud that guy for having real friends that he can meat at LAN games."

The word "meat" means "the edible flesh of animals." You are looking for the word meet. Did that help me to effectively counter your point? No, it did not.

This brings up the question of why grammar and spelling is relevant. They do not generally determine a person's intellegence (although you can tell if a 12 year old kid starts posting). This kind of irrelevance points to a sort of inability to properly counter his arguments, TheIceface.

I'll try to counter some of your arguments. The problem is that you waste so much time talking about grammar that you fail to make many valid points. (Also, bear in mind that I do not play starcraft and I really do not like it anyway. I play solely supreme commander.)

This zergling rush sounds like it is building a few of these zerglings and sending them into your opponent's base. My question is this: what's preventing you from doing the same thing? Why don't you build units of equal value and either send them to your enemy's base or leave them in your base as defence? If you choose the latter, you can build more because you have more time, correct? If that were the case, you would be able to defeat the enemy's smaller force with your larger force if you don't completely screw up and position them incorrectly.

Another point is that, much as I hate saying this, the evil and arrogant top players are almost always correct. They play the game to it's full potential, and find ways to counter moves that seem at first glance overpowered. However, I do understand your point. You are not a top player, and this sort of rush may be easy to initiate, but not very easy to defend against. In that case, kindly explain to me why the above tactic would not work. I see no problem with it, but having not played SC for a LONG time, I may be missing something. If I am, kindly point it out to me.

Also, please avoid the sort of arrogance that plagued your above post. Pointing out mechanical errors is a way to bring someone down without actually countering your posts. This may make you look good to a few numbskulls, but to everyone else it makes you look like a conceited bastard.

 

[Pzychotix]

I don't get it. They've told you why zergling rushes don't work.

You say:
"Usually the case is this: You start the match, a grip of zergling rush your base and kill your offensive characters. If you kill the invading force, the opponent often drops out of the game. The zergling are quick to make, fast moving, and have some offensive capabilities, unlike the pathetic SCVs. This makes it too easy to perform a rush."

They've pointed out:
Zergling rushes are easy to defend against, and if their rush fails, they're put in an economic disadvantage that will almost ensure their loss.

It's essentially a suicide tactic, that's easily countered.

What's unfair about this? Honestly, they've repeated this many times, and you haven't answered. The only thing I can tell from it is that you don't like the fact that they will often drop out if their rush fails, but that means you've won. Would you prefer that they stay on for the next 10 minutes, flailing around with a gimped economy?

 

[TheIceface]

No, that is not necessary. The comma would only be required if he was listing 3 or more things. The word "yeah" is not part of a list, and therefore a comma is not required.

While you are right about it not being a list, the comma is required because it is the end of a complete thought. Basically the ", and" is the alternative to making two separate sentences.

The word "meat" means "the edible flesh of animals." You are looking for the word meet.

Ha ha ha, you've got me there. I went back and fixed it now, thanks for pointing it out. I guess it reveals how much the concept of "meat" crosses my mind.

This brings up the question of why grammar and spelling is relevant.

Well, the main reason I did it was to humiliate him. I am an English teacher, and I enjoy pointing out errors it people I don't like. The bonus is that if I point out an error that is completely irrelevant to the discussion, I get to see the reaction. Will he throw a shit-fit like a little kid, or will he shake it off since I'm basically just picking on his inability to use Spellcheck.

I'll try to counter some of your arguments. The problem is that you waste so much time talking about grammar that you fail to make many valid points.

I made one, somewhere in there, where I explained exactly why it was that the maneuver was unfair. You just have to dig a bit to find it; it is in the section after his seventh quote.

This zergling rush sounds like it is building a few of these zerglings and sending them into your opponent's base. My question is this: what's preventing you from doing the same thing? Why don't you build units of equal value and either send them to your enemy's base or leave them in your base as defence?

The reason I didn't use zergling rush as as much as it was used on me is because it took the fun out of the game. When you only do one move/use one weapon/follow one tactic, it makes all the other fun races/guns/tricks completely pointless. I enjoyed Starcraft except for the Zergling Rush, I had no intention of using the one part of the game I hate constantly, just to win.

No other race (I don't know about the expansion; I never played it.) has the type of units that make the rush possible. The units have to be fast, quick to make, cheap to make, and have moderate damage potential. The Protoss and Terran's peasant creatures didn't have these qualities.

Also, please avoid the sort of arrogance that plagued your above post. Pointing out mechanical errors is a way to bring someone down without actually countering your posts. This may make you look good to a few numbskulls, but to everyone else it makes you look like a conceited bastard.

I'm an English teacher and an ex-QA tester, being a total arrogant, narcissistic, nit-picky, irritating douche is permanently hardwired into my personality.

Being nice and letting other arrogant people be wrong is no fun, its kind of like Superman not saving someone because they might get mad if he has to track mud into their house to do it.

Besides being an internet superhero, the reaction from pissing stupid people off is its own reward.

 

[TheIceface]

The only thing I can tell from it is that you don't like the fact that they will often drop out if their rush fails, but that means you've won. Would you prefer that they stay on for the next 10 minutes, flailing around with a gimped economy?

Honestly? No.
I played Starcraft because I wanted to have fun battling opponents.

Its the same reason I don't play Monopoly with my little sister, she quits every time I buy Boardwalk.