Poll: Is StarCraft really the quintessential RTS?

[Pzychotix]

Honestly? No.
I played Starcraft because I wanted to have fun battling opponents.

Its the same reason I don't play Monopoly with my little sister, she quits every time I buy Boardwalk.

So because newbies resort to bad tactics, the game itself is bad? That's a flawed argument if I ever saw one. That just means the players are bad, and bears no relevance to the game itself.

As for zergling rush being unfair, it's been explained over and over again that a zergling rush will commonly be countered and place the rusher in a horrible position if it fails. I don't see how this is unfair. I think you're under the impression that a zergling rush will automatically give the rusher the upper hand, when that clearly isn't the case.

 

[Wolves]

Lol, what I said was every bit as arrogant as everyone else here. I'm glad you didn't take it as such.

"Yeah, I am charming and I fuck really good. ask your mom, she'll tell you all about it"

I now can see my mistake with this. I didn't see the context, what you had written: "Thats handy, I don't think I'd accept even 1 fuck from you, although you do seem charming." If that was standing alone and not making a reference to what you had said, I don't believe a comma would be necessary, because being charming is connected to being attractive to the opposite sex, which leads to sex. But I admit my mistake here.

Also, having read over your post, I can see what you were trying to accomplish, which (ironically) was the same thing I was trying to do in my own post. Now lets talk about the relevant stuff.

I find it hard to believe that in the time it takes for the enemy to build several zerglings and send them to your base, you are unable to create any form of base defence or units which can accomplish the same. Once again, I am only familiar with SupCom units, for which early game is almost exactly the same for all factions, but there is absolutely nothing you can build which will be able to attack the zerglings? I'll try to look up some of the units myself to see what you are talking about.

 

[TheIceface]

So because newbies resort to bad tactics, the game itself is bad? That's a flawed argument if I ever saw one. That just means the players are bad, and bears no relevance to the game itself.

As for zergling rush being unfair, it's been explained over and over again that a zergling rush will commonly be countered and place the rusher in a horrible position if it fails. I don't see how this is unfair. I think you're under the impression that a zergling rush will automatically give the rusher the upper hand, when that clearly isn't the case.

For the billionth time, I never said the game was bad. I did like the game, but the abuse of the zergling rush tactic got me uninterested in it. The game had a big flaw, but that doesn't make it bad altogether.

For the two-billionth time, the zergling rush is not unstoppable, just really annoying and overused. Couple that with the amount of people who quit after their rush fails and you get a bunch of pretty boring matches.

I find it hard to believe that in the time it takes for the enemy to build several zerglings and send them to your base, you are unable to create any form of base defence or units which can accomplish the same. Once again, I am only familiar with SupCom units, for which early game is almost exactly the same for all factions, but there is absolutely nothing you can build which will be able to attack the zerglings? I'll try to look up some of the units myself to see what you are talking about.

Yeah, the problem is that you have to build a barracks to get marines since the peasant units are ultra-pathetic. In the Zerg case, however, the zerglings already do decent damage, and are easy to make. You can make 2 at a time, while the other races only let you make one at a time. I think you have like 3 larva at the beginning anyway, so thats an easy 6 zergling you can send over before the enemy can finish getting enough supplies to make decent units or buildings.

 

[UninspiringlyNamed]

I personally think that TA is the best 'retro' RTS ever made. The gameplay engine was light years ahead of anything of the same era and as a result, in that respect it blew Starcraft, AoE, and whatever else into the middle of next week. However where TA had better gameplay, SC countered with a better narrative, more diverse yet still relatively balanced races and far better online support. So, based on that I suppose SC is the 'quintessential' RTS, but for me, TA is the 'best' RTS, at least of its time.

 

[ManBarrel]

I have never really played SC.

I stuck with Total Annihilation, Red Alert (1), and Command and Conquer (1)

 

[Xhumed]

As for unique, why did Dune 2 come before that with almost the same sort of play?

I can't believe it took a full 2 pages, the quintessential RTS is Dune 2 because it defined the RTS genre so it is by default the purest representation of the genre.

im pretty sure i mentioned Dune 2 a while back...

 

[Pzychotix]

For the billionth time, I never said the game was bad. I did like the game, but the abuse of the zergling rush tactic got me uninterested in it. The game had a big flaw, but that doesn't make it bad altogether.

For the two-billionth time, the zergling rush is not unstoppable, just really annoying and overused. Couple that with the amount of people who quit after their rush fails and you get a bunch of pretty boring matches.

Essentially, your entire argument is that the games you run into are filled with bad players. Why are you even in this topic then? This isn't about whose game has a better community, or whose players aren't idiots. If you get two experienced opponents playing against each other, they're not going to be reaching for zerg rushes to win their games.

Yeah, the problem is that you have to build a barracks to get marines since the peasant units are ultra-pathetic. In the Zerg case, however, the zerglings already do decent damage, and are easy to make. You can make 2 at a time, while the other races only let you make one at a time. I think you have like 3 larva at the beginning anyway, so thats an easy 6 zergling you can send over before the enemy can finish getting enough supplies to make decent units or buildings.

Wait... are you really saying that you think that the zerglings are the peasant unit? /facepalm.

Zerglings require a spawning pool, which costs 200 minerals. Marines require a barracks, which only costs 150 minerals. Zealots require a gateway, which only costs 150 minerals. The fact that the building costs 50 minerals more than other races stops the attempt dead in its tracks.

How little do you really know about Starcraft?

 

[ThriceNine]

Battle.net is what sets the Blizzard games apart. The Limitless Custom Content is amazing.
Starcraft was the quintessential RTS because it set the bar. Like Grand Theft Auto, it brought a genre to a level many could appreciate. Was it the best? NO!!!! No RTS can be the best because they are all too different.

Warcraft 3 refined the Starcraft gameplay by fixing issues such as overability casting(such as ghosts all firing their lockdown at one target, instead of firing one and letting the others wait for fire) they also added must more fun heroes, but it was medieval, and the story came straight from the Simalrion.

C+C was fun, but was just rock paper scissors. The GLA could take the USA. The Chinese could take the GLA, and the USA could take the CHinese.
Zero hour enhanced this but it was still just match one for one. Toxin General vs Laser General, Demolitions vs. Infantry, Tank v Stealth, etc.

Company of Heroes is too new to be compared, perhaps its the best, but its not the standard. I like the idea of trying to eliminate resource management though.

Supreme Commander, ughh...
I honestly love the game but only after the first THREE HOURS!!! I know that means Im noob but Starcraft was easy to pick up. This was impossible. When I clicked on 12 vultures and sent them at an enemy base in SC they would ATTACK.In Supreme Commander I coud click on 4 units and send them at the enemy, but without Left Clicking, then right clicking, then CTR Left Clicking, they would spread out and enter the enemy base one at a time, The games riddled with bugs, Mobile Artillery on Advancement would just run right into the enemy. I had to stop my artillery to fire correctly. Ok Im done.

Total War was fun, but in the end it was too simple. Tell me all you want about the complexities of the game, but in the end there was calvalry, Heavy Infantry, Light Infantry, Archers, Skirmishers, Siege, and Super Weapons(elephants, Scythe Chariots) A game needs more than 7 units. The TBC combat on the map was fun, but thats not RTS thats TBS.

Now what I have to say is no matter how bad you think the RTS Starcraft was, what it did introduce was the most amazing custom game society ever. Literally this is where Starcraft destroys all others it became not one game but 20 or 30. Some people even purchased this game purely for the custom content like Diplomacy(or in Wc3 Dota). Small Celebrities arose like Tuxedo Templar with SCtV and some of the best Td's ever.

The Biggest Blessing and Curse to Starcraft was Starforge. It introduced the bound, but also introduced porn games. Kerrigan is NOT SEXY NAKED PEOPLE!!!

Long post sorry...

 

[TheIceface]

Essentially, your entire argument is that the games you run into are filled with bad players. Why are you even in this topic then? This isn't about whose game has a better community, or whose players aren't idiots. If you get two experienced opponents playing against each other, they're not going to be reaching for zerg rushes to win their games.

Any game can be fun if you play it against people you know (even terrible games game be fun). The problem is when you play against people you don't know on Battle.net you often are going to get this loser who thinks that zergling rush is the coolest thing since ice, and acts like a little ***** if you defeat the attack.

Likewise you're very likely to run into a bunch of 12-year-old brats who are spoiled by their parents if you go on XBL... but thats getting off-topic.

The reason the games I run into are filled with bad players is because it is so easy for this move to be done. If you have an annoying move, people will use it, in droves, over and over again. The reason there are so many "bad players" is because of the move, since the move is the stem of the problem, I'll ***** about it rather than whining that everyone I run into uses a move that I don't want to complain about.

Wait... are you really saying that you think that the zerglings are the peasant unit? /facepalm.

Zerglings require a spawning pool, which costs 200 minerals. blah blah blah, more blah, and followed by blah blah!

How little do you really know about Starcraft?

Nope, I didn't say they were peasant units, nor did I infer it. The reason I compared them with the peasants of the other races was to rule out the other peasants as suitable defenses. You often don't have time to build a good amount of marines or whatever, so you're stuck defending with mostly peons. The zerglings can be created quickly, and easily, so much so that the bulk of the opponent's defense rests on the workers he is using to collect materials.

As for how much I know about Starcraft? I know enough to win a battle from time to time, I know the battlecruiser guys have cool Russian accents and the goliath units sound like they're announcing a website when they're spawned ("Goliath Online!"). I'm not a total nerd about the game though, I don't have all the character names memorized, and I most certainly don't watch other people fight if I'm not in some way related to the battle.

 

[Larry Laffer]

Did it occured to you that you're losing because you're the worst player you know, rather than because of a rush technique? If I slash a baby's throat with a knife, is it because I have a knife or because my opponent is a damn baby?

It really is the knife; even if it wasn't a baby, fighting an unarmed enemy with a knife is a bit of an unfair advantage. Even if the other guy happens to be good at fighting.
Likewise using an unfair technique puts the other player at an initial disadvantage regardless of his skill level.

omg, what kind of retard wouldn't get this example? What I meant is, if you're a noob then ling rush or no ling rush, you'll lose against 99.99% of the people on Battlenet, even if you , the baby, carry a knife as well. Because you do, a terran or toss can rush as effeciently as a zerg player. You're just too much of an idiot to understand this, no matter how many people have spelled it out for you before in the thread

BTW not only is using "occured" improper grammar in that sentence, but you spelled it incorrectly.

Oh no! Hitting me where it hurts the most. My grammar skills! You're beginning to step into the lowest form of conversation here, trying to discredit the other anyway you can, so i'm not going to dignify the rest of your spelling corrections with an answer. Personally, I think you're just embarrassing yourself

Now that is a bit unfair, I applaud that guy for having real friends that he can meet at LAN games. Social contact should be encouraged, not disparaged. On top of that, it takes a little bit more skill to take a bunch of computers and set up LAN games than simply logging on to Battle.net, I see nothing "noobish" about it.

Being able to set up a LAN and have 3-4 friends doesn't make him any less of a starcraft noob. In fact, he makes him even more of a noob, because by being able to beat his noob friends, he's under the illusion that he's not himself a noob, while in fact he is. Noobs at bnet are at least aware of their noobness, because they're being called like that almost constantly.

Then you point out I wouldn't complain if I could defend against it. Like I've mentioned multiple times before, I can defend against it, however, it is annoying to do so.

You couldn't defend my dick coming inside your ass, whatmore a ling rush.. And I've already explained to you why you're lieing. If you defend a ling rush, you're put in a natural advantage because your opponent destroyed his eco to produce the ling rush (it's called a 4pool build order, which fucks up your mineral income) and also lost the 6 lings, which costed minerals to make. Furthermore, that bullshit about people dropping after a failed ling rush is outright lies as well. I don't know when you played, but at your skill-level there's not ONE chance that you're winning 1 out of 50 games in battlenet, let alone having the other dc'ing on u. And I was able to judge your skill with every post u made, cause you're writting shit like this:

I really didn't like starcraft a lot. Except for the Zergling Rush scenario (which pretty much discredits the game as amazing canon) you could pretty much win every time if you were protoss.
Build a bunch of those turrets and then a bunch of the carrier ships and you win, not even 3 fleets of battle cruisers could stop you (believe me, I've tried).

How could anyone but a retard, who claims to know starcraft, writes anything like this? Protoss do not win every time, otherwise everyone would play protoss. If you actually tried to went with 3 'fleets' of battlecruisers inside turrets and carriers proves your utter noobness on its own. To kill cannons, u pick a unit with a bigger range, like tanks, reavers, or guardians, or you could even use the yamato gun of your battlecruisers which have bigger range than their lasers. Furthermore, some of the infinite ways to kill carriers include scourges, locking with ghosts+wraiths, maelstorm with DA +corsair, plague+mass hydra, and the list goes on. And all those combinations cost much less than producing carriers


But the most unbearably noob thing you've ever said was these:

I enjoyed Starcraft except for the Zergling Rush, I had no intention of using the one part of the game I hate constantly, just to win. No other race (I don't know about the expansion; I never played it.) has the type of units that make the rush possible. The units have to be fast, quick to make, cheap to make, and have moderate damage potential. The Protoss and Terran's peasant creatures didn't have these qualities.

Yeah, the problem is that you have to build a barracks to get marines since the peasant units are ultra-pathetic. In the Zerg case, however, the zerglings already do decent damage, and are easy to make. You can make 2 at a time, while the other races only let you make one at a time. I think you have like 3 larva at the beginning anyway, so thats an easy 6 zergling you can send over before the enemy can finish getting enough supplies to make decent units or buildings.

How much of a DUMB SHIT can you be to claim you're playing Starcraft and not realize that lings are not a peasant unit? I think that through this thread you've rightfully earn the right to be called KING of all starcraft NOOBS. Well done, you somehow managed to embarrass yourself more than I thought possible

Just for the sake of entertaining myself (and others) though, I'll try to explain to you all the points that you were wrong in your last quote:

Pool costs 200 to make, and since a drone (the ACTUAL zerg's worker, which btw sucks against SCVs (terran's worker) ) needs to evolve into the pool and is subsequently lost, pool actually costs 250 min to the player. Two lings cost 50 min, which is as much as a marine, and the result of a battle between 2 lings and 1 rine depends on micro and map factors. Terran, on the other hand, need 150min for barracks, and by the time the 6 lings reach the enemy base, you have time to make 3 rines which result in a fair battle. You also have the choice of building just one rine and a bunker which also beats 6 lings, or assist your rines with scvs, which are the strongest worker unit in starcraft. So, what exactly annoying do you find in ensuring a good defense through out the whole duration of your game? Just spend the 5 minutes to adapt to a good build order, and stop bitching like a 12 year old girl

You then mention shitting and gay games. I don't think I have any games that have either of the two incorporated anywhere within them. I'm not sure which games you're referring to; I would appreciate examples if you are going to make accusations.

What I said was 'There's no shitting around in starcraft like the other gay games you play.'. "Shitting around" is a phrasal verb, like "horsing around", or "bullshitting around", or "playing starcraft like TheIceface, king of the noobs". Oookkkaaaaay, u dipshit english teacher?

I don't have a mom, my dad and I share yours.

That's highly unlikely. If you're having sex like you're playing sc, then its more likely that my mom fucks u both with a strap on

This brings up the question of why grammar and spelling is relevant.

Well, the main reason I did it was to humiliate him. I am an English teacher, and I enjoy pointing out errors it people I don't like.

Yeah, that was really mature. I'm a video game programmer, but you didn't see me being a cocky ***** trying to explain you in detail how sc ai does NOT cheat, in one more of your ridiculous claims..

 

[Archaeology Hat]

Game based around moving your little blokies around a computer generated map? Check
Game is real-time? Check
Game is well balanced? Check
Game has base building? Check
Game contains resource management? Check
Game has popular mutliplayer? Check
Game is easy to get into? Check
Game is popular world-wide and has been for a long time? Check
Game is marketed at a group who aren't as niche as other strategy games are? Check

Hmm... Seeing as we're going for quintessential not best or greatest... I think yes, Starcraft is Quintessential. Whether it's good or not, now thats another cake... I personally like Starcraft. But I like other strategy games as much/more.

 

[Pzychotix]

Essentially, your entire argument is that the games you run into are filled with bad players. Why are you even in this topic then? This isn't about whose game has a better community, or whose players aren't idiots. If you get two experienced opponents playing against each other, they're not going to be reaching for zerg rushes to win their games.

Any game can be fun if you play it against people you know (even terrible games game be fun). The problem is when you play against people you don't know on Battle.net you often are going to get this loser who thinks that zergling rush is the coolest thing since ice, and acts like a little ***** if you defeat the attack.

Likewise you're very likely to run into a bunch of 12-year-old brats who are spoiled by their parents if you go on XBL... but thats getting off-topic.

The reason the games I run into are filled with bad players is because it is so easy for this move to be done. If you have an annoying move, people will use it, in droves, over and over again. The reason there are so many "bad players" is because of the move, since the move is the stem of the problem, I'll ***** about it rather than whining that everyone I run into uses a move that I don't want to complain about.

It's a easy to execute, yet bad move. Done and done. Get over it, and completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Every game has noob moves that bad players will try to exploit and fail at. Starcraft is not unique in this regard.

Wait... are you really saying that you think that the zerglings are the peasant unit? /facepalm.

Zerglings require a spawning pool, which costs 200 minerals. blah blah blah, more blah, and followed by blah blah!

How little do you really know about Starcraft?

Nope, I didn't say they were peasant units, nor did I infer it. The reason I compared them with the peasants of the other races was to rule out the other peasants as suitable defenses. You often don't have time to build a good amount of marines or whatever, so you're stuck defending with mostly peons. The zerglings can be created quickly, and easily, so much so that the bulk of the opponent's defense rests on the workers he is using to collect materials.

How so? Again: Zerglings will require 50 more minerals to start up than any other race. That, again, stomps the chances of a zerg rush succeeeding. You claim that the defender will have nothing but peons to defend with, but how can that be when the defender already has the lead? Then there's the fact that the attack is far away, meaning the defender has even more time to get units out. A terran will have a chokehold on his entrance, limiting the number of zerglings that can attack his marines, while a protoss will have zealots, waiting to rip through the little rush.

It boils down to this: How on earth does this supposed super rusher get out his zerglings before the other races can even get out one unit, when his lings take longer to start up, get ready, and reach the opponents base?

Answer: They don't, unless the opponent is gambling as well.

 

[TheIceface]

Alright, there were 2 mega-posts within a very short time, and just because I'm tired of doing the quoting thing. I'm going to try to reply to all the stuff without it.

I'll start with the Laffer:
I really don't follow your logic, you say I'm a noob when I complain about the zergling rush being unbalanced, then you turn around and call me a noob when I tell you that I can win as Protoss every time easily without the zergling rush. I simply don't understand, and I don't think I'll even try to. I can beat people with protoss, its very easy, maybe you are a nooby-mcnoobish noobpants since you can't seem to win every time as protoss. Its really quite easy, maybe you should play the game more so you know how to win.

As for the rest of your post it was basically just name-calling, bad grammer, and worse spelling. I don't have the patience to constantly check over your work all the time. You should use Spellcheck so I don't have to. I'll start paying attention to you when you start pretending to be a civilized person.

It's a easy to execute, yet bad move. Done and done. Get over it, and completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Every game has noob moves that bad players will try to exploit and fail at. Starcraft is not unique in this regard.

No Starcraft is by no means unique by having an exploitable flaw, most games have at least one. However this thread is talking about SC and weighing its merits against its flaws to see how essential it is, so the my post is relevant.

How so? Again: Zerglings will require 50 more minerals to start up than any other race. That, again, stomps the chances of a zerg rush succeeeding. You claim that the defender will have nothing but peons to defend with, but how can that be when the defender already has the lead? Then there's the fact that the attack is far away, meaning the defender has even more time to get units out. A terran will have a chokehold on his entrance, limiting the number of zerglings that can attack his marines, while a protoss will have zealots, waiting to rip through the little rush.

It boils down to this: How on earth does this supposed super rusher get out his zerglings before the other races can even get out one unit, when his lings take longer to start up, get ready, and reach the opponents base?

Answer: They don't, unless the opponent is gambling as well.

All the races have offensive characters that take a while to build. I always found it fastest for the zerglings to be built, plus the fact that they come in 2s is a bonus to counteract they're general weakness.
Very often the case is that the enemy does not have a choke hold, sometimes it is even impossible based on the map. Also, while they might have units other than peons, the enemy will often focus on making a few peons to speed up the resource harvesting.

The rush can be fended off if the person getting rushed prepares for that situation. However, this can be a crucial blow to your startup economy, choosing to make a bunch of military over peasants that let you make potentially more military. If the enemy doesn't rush, you may have just given him that crucial economic advantage he needs to pump out some bigger baddies before you.

You seem to think that the rush really isn't that big of a deal, and usually doesn't work. If this is the case, then why do so many people do it? It isn't a guaranteed win, its an economic gamble, but so is defending against it.

 

[fierydemise]

Dune 2 was great, and indeed the first of its kind, and props go to Westwood Studios for that. But would you rather play Dune 2 or starcraft now? Because Starcraft is still the most played rts RIGHT NOW, after 10 years of its release.

Maybe we should go back to the definition of quintessential:

1. the pure and concentrated essence of a substance.
2. the most perfect embodiment of something.

Notice there is nothing about quality, there is nothing about life span, we are only looking for the purest representation of the RTS genre. Obviously since Dune 2 defined the conventions that RTS games follow it is the purest representation and everything since have been variations on a theme.

 

[goodpoltergeist]

Yes.

If only for the reason that EVERYONE played Starcraft. And with it being a national sport in South Korea and whatnot.

 

[TheIceface]

Quintessential? No, I think that would fall on the shoulders of Warcraft 1. That was the quintessential RTS game in my opinion in the same way that Doom is the one for shooters. Sure Wolf3d came first, but Doom, like Warcraft, was the last big foundation that all the other games of the genres are based upon.

A good game, and important to the history of the genre? Yes, I think Starcraft will be written in the pages of history as an important chapter, but I don't see it as the quintessential RTS.

 

[DontHate]

I'll start with the Laffer:
I really don't follow your logic

Ok you obviously don't want to be bothered with the truth of the guy's example. The main idea is a strategy is not as important as skill. You responded with a stupid remark that has nothing to do with the example, just a real life example. In reality both people would have "knives" and it would be a fair battle except for the fact one is bad at the game, or the baby.

you say I'm a noob when I complain about the zergling rush being unbalanced, then you turn around and call me a noob when I tell you that I can win as Protoss every time easily without the zergling rush.

Okay this statement is very stupid when someone who actually plays starcraft reads it. I'm not going to say you're a noob, I would rather say you're an idiot. Winning depends on a combination of good strategies, skill, and the strategy and skills of the opposing force. I think you don't know how to scout(a very important part) in starcraft. Early scouting will show you the enemy is going to rush, and thus you can counter with an early forge, cannon, and some zealots instead of going for the quick expo. You would lose becuase you can't adapt to this rush and you would win during a game where you can adapt to the other strategies.

I simply don't understand, and I don't think I'll even try to. I can beat people with protoss, its very easy, maybe you are a nooby-mcnoobish noobpants since you can't seem to win every time as protoss. Its really quite easy, maybe you should play the game more so you know how to win.

You can beat people with protoss becuase that's your main race and you probably know more strategies that work with them. It is NOT becuase of the game being unbalanced. As I said before, people ussually tend to think Protoss are imba becuase of their powerful units. Again i will explain that the units cost a lot of res. It's just as easy to win with terran or zerg if you practice as them.
You insulting the other guy is totally uncalled for. You never established the fact he "isn't" good at the game and cannot win. Just because you can win with a certain race doesn't mean you're any better and can insult others.

As for the rest of your post it was basically just name-calling, bad grammer, and worse spelling. I don't have the patience to constantly check over your work all the time. You should use Spellcheck so I don't have to. I'll start paying attention to you when you start pretending to be a civilized person.

Now this is why you get on my nerves. You have constantly been insulting (calling him a "nooby pants" or some shit), giving bad information(protoss are imba), and horrible logic in your responces(knives are dangerous!). You probably think insulting other people's grammer and spelling makes you sound more intelligent, but surprisingly it doesn not.

It's a easy to execute, yet bad move. Done and done. Get over it, and completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Every game has noob moves that bad players will try to exploit and fail at. Starcraft is not unique in this regard.

No Starcraft is by no means unique by having an exploitable flaw, most games have at least one. However this thread is talking about SC and weighing its merits against its flaws to see how essential it is, so the my post is relevant.

You keep talking about the zergling rush saying it's an "expoit" or problem. IT'S NOT. It's a strategy that requires a lot of skill, thinking, and luck to use. If you are on a map where there are many spawn points and the bases are far apart, chances are the rush will fail. You obviously never even tried rushing, only being rushed by people who know the strategy. (go deny it if you want. It might be true but your responces show you don't know anything about the rush itself).

How so? Again: Zerglings will require 50 more minerals to start up than any other race. That, again, stomps the chances of a zerg rush succeeeding. You claim that the defender will have nothing but peons to defend with, but how can that be when the defender already has the lead? Then there's the fact that the attack is far away, meaning the defender has even more time to get units out. A terran will have a chokehold on his entrance, limiting the number of zerglings that can attack his marines, while a protoss will have zealots, waiting to rip through the little rush.
It boils down to this: How on earth does this supposed super rusher get out his zerglings before the other races can even get out one unit, when his lings take longer to start up, get ready, and reach the opponents base?
Answer: They don't, unless the opponent is gambling as well.

All the races have offensive characters that take a while to build. I always found it fastest for the zerglings to be built, plus the fact that they come in 2s is a bonus to counteract they're general weakness.
Very often the case is that the enemy does not have a choke hold, sometimes it is even impossible based on the map. Also, while they might have units other than peons, the enemy will often focus on making a few peons to speed up the resource harvesting.

Most maps will have ramps, which can be used to stop rushes. Also the player will ussually know that a rush is coming and can start building up in case of it. (early forge no expo for toss). The enemy focusing on peons when noticing a rush is an idiot and will obviously lose.

The rush can be fended off if the person getting rushed prepares for that situation. However, this can be a crucial blow to your startup economy, choosing to make a bunch of military over peasants that let you make potentially more military. If the enemy doesn't rush, you may have just given him that crucial economic advantage he needs to pump out some bigger baddies before you.

You seem to think that the rush really isn't that big of a deal, and usually doesn't work. If this is the case, then why do so many people do it? It isn't a guaranteed win, its an economic gamble, but so is defending against it.

People do it becuase it can work if used right, however it takes a lot of skill and luck for it to work.

EDIT: oh and btw, through out my responce i had to take everything you said about your skill with protoss as truth. In reality I don't think you would win every game with the protoss without a zerg rush. This is because you don't scout for a zerg rush and not scouting is basically a loss.

 

[Larry Laffer]

I really don't follow your logic, you say I'm a noob when I complain about the zergling rush being unbalanced, then you turn around and call me a noob when I tell you that I can win as Protoss every time easily without the zergling rush. I simply don't understand, and I don't think I'll even try to.

Do you even listen to yourself talking, or do you find you drift in and out? Are you actually saying that you can win matches EVERY TIME when playing with protoss? So if you log in to B.net, you will win E V E R Y T I M E then? How the fuck you expect ANYONE, not just me, to NOT be calling you KING of the NOOBS when you make statements like this? The only reason that you don't follow my logic, or understand, is because you're as dumb as a carrot, and I tried to explain this to you in all my previous posts, but I guess that would be a moot point there, wouldn't it?

I can beat people with protoss, its very easy, maybe you are a nooby-mcnoobish noobpants since you can't seem to win every time as protoss.

Yes, i sure am a noob, since I can't beat ALL people in bNet "every time" when I play with toss.. You must log-in Bnet someday, and teach me how to do it.. And by the way, the gay community called, and they want their swears back.

As for the rest of your post it was basically just name-calling, bad grammer, and worse spelling. I don't have the patience to constantly check over your work all the time. You should use Spellcheck so I don't have to.

Yeah, if you really wanna ***** about spell checkers, I wouldn't type "bad grammer" just one line above. And there was nothing wrong with my grammar or spelling, and all the name-calling was 100% deserving, if not understatements of your noob power. And you completely dodged every detailed explanation i made on how ling rush is anything but a game flaw, and most importantly you didn't comment on the whole "zerglings are peons" fiasco, so i'm just going to assume you're just some dildo that played sc a bunch of times but wants to sound like he knows what he's talking about, and consider the whole conversation a waste of time on my part.

Nope, I didn't say they were peasant units, nor did I infer it. The reason I compared them with the peasants of the other races was to rule out the other peasants as suitable defenses.

Oh no, that's not why you compared them with the other peasants. You said it clearly: "No other race has the type of units that make the rush possible. The units have to be fast, quick to make, cheap to make, and have moderate damage potential. The Protoss and Terran's peasant creatures didn't have these qualities.". You are comparing if the other's races peasants are good on the OFFENSIVE, and if you can rush with them, like you can rush with zerg's peasants. Just admit it so we can all go home... you confused drones with zerglings... you're THAT much of a noob.. yet, with toss, you win EVERY TIME.

And you've ALSO said: " I think you have like 3 larva at the beginning anyway, so thats an easy 6 zergling you can send over", but in the BEGINNING as you say, you can only make drones, not lings. So, I'll just be here and wait for your public apology, on how you wasted all these people's time (including mine), by stubbornly insisting on a retarded sc complaint that doesn't hold water, while in fact you had no fucking idea what u were talking about.

 

[ThriceNine]

for god sakes if you have any love for Starcraft stop making us who like it look bad Laffer. You and the Ice Face have made almost 60% of this topic about one debatable defect in the game.


If anything made me mad about this game it was the overcasting. I should be able to select a group of units and when I cast a spell it's casted once!

 

[Pzychotix]

No Starcraft is by no means unique by having an exploitable flaw, most games have at least one. However this thread is talking about SC and weighing its merits against its flaws to see how essential it is, so the my post is relevant.

All the races have offensive characters that take a while to build. I always found it fastest for the zerglings to be built, plus the fact that they come in 2s is a bonus to counteract they're general weakness.
Very often the case is that the enemy does not have a choke hold, sometimes it is even impossible based on the map. Also, while they might have units other than peons, the enemy will often focus on making a few peons to speed up the resource harvesting.

The rush can be fended off if the person getting rushed prepares for that situation. However, this can be a crucial blow to your startup economy, choosing to make a bunch of military over peasants that let you make potentially more military. If the enemy doesn't rush, you may have just given him that crucial economic advantage he needs to pump out some bigger baddies before you.

You seem to think that the rush really isn't that big of a deal, and usually doesn't work. If this is the case, then why do so many people do it? It isn't a guaranteed win, its an economic gamble, but so is defending against it.

1) You found or you timed? Two big different things. Again: Spawning pool takes longer to start up due to the extra 50 minerals you have to wait for.
2) Two zerglings does not equal a terran marine with a proper chokehold, or a zealot.
3) Almost EVERY map has a chokehold leading into your natural. Stop playing on some random custom maps with open areas. Hell, even big money maps have chokeholds. Stop lying through your teeth.
4) If you aren't scouting his base out, realizing he's going to rush you, you're bad.

As for Zergling Rushes being an exploitable flaw: They're not. I don't see how it is. If a player wants to take a gamble and end the game early, that's a perfectly fine strategy, rather than having to face big armies together. It's a very basic concept of war: hit them before their defenses are up. I think your art of war is very weak, my friend. You claim that rushes are a bad thing in a RTS game, but in reality, it's a part of war. It's not a particularly winning strategy, but that in no way counts against Starcraft just because it exists.

If you wish to continue about Zergling rushes, you have to explain why it's a bad thing that it exists. It's easy to execute, yet easy to counter. What's the problem again? Oh right, that you run into it a lot. Again, irrelevant.