Poll: Is the ratio of women in the industry really a sign of sexism?

[Nexxis]

I honestly think that it's not a representation of the problem now, but the problem that existed before. There are probably more women in the industry now than before. For the high-ranking people, many people had to work their way there. Those guys may have had a head start before women started trickling in. As much as I would like to see more women developers on stage representing games, I also realize that some might not have gotten to that "rank" yet. I don't doubt that some women are perfectly capable of representing game companies at these conferences and they may be passed over for something more "normal". I'd like to give it a bit more time. I think situations have improved a little. The fact that people threw a hissy fit over it shows that people care more. That's a good sign.

When I was a kid, I hated everything girly. Hated pink, hated Barbie, flowers, dresses, New Kids on the Block, didn't play with dolls, any of that. All my relatives knew I liked drawing, animals, dinosaurs, learning about science and overall pretty gender-neutral stuff. Yet every birthday, I was always dismayed to open present after present of troll dolls and girl toys I would never want to play with, and it was only the hope for that occasional video game from my mom and dad (who hated me playing video games) that would make me happy. I guess that my aunts and uncles just went with the "default girl gifts" because they had better things to think about than what I might really like, what with their busy adult lives, but I guess that's kind of the problem.

I mean, it's cool that you guys always got the toys you wanted, and I have no problem with girls liking dolls or anything like that. But there's a real pressure that steers girls towards girl shit that is pretty hard to avoid, even when as a kid you desperately tried to.

Same here, for the most part. I always felt like my mother was the only one that allowed me to look outside the box. Everyone else in my family tried to tie me to "tradition" all the time. As a kid, I had a passion for dinosaurs, so I loved my dino toys and enjoyed playing in the dirt in the backyard, pretending to dig up dino bones. The rest of my family tried to force barbies, kitchen sets, and baby dolls on me. I played with them for a bit (those I wasn't a fan of baby dolls), but they always ended up being "food" for my dinosaur and godzilla toys. My mom bought me my first computer and my first game console. My dad, on the other hand, refused to put money towards any of that. When I was a teenager, he would get mad at me for not talking on the phone all day, wanting to go clothes shopping, or having a crush on someone. He had such a vision of what a female was suppose to be that, when I didn't fit it, I was practically punished for it. It's the same reason why my mom didn't marry him in the first place.

Long story short, the lifestyles of females differ greatly, but there are situations where girls are pressured/trained to like or not like different things. That includes tech stuff. People react differently to it. Some girls might give in to the pressure while others break free of it. Society at large can also make that situation better or worse for them.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Let's look at who presented:
Mark Cerny - Lead PS4 Architect and Game Designer on Knack.
Dave Perry - CEO of Gaikai
Michael Denny - Vice President of Sony Worldwide Studios Europe
Andrew House - CEO of Sony Computer Entertainment Europe
They were not merely presenters, but at the very head of the development of the PS4. They clearly weren't chosen by gender, and not mainly chosen for being good presenters, but because they are actually responsible for the things revealed about the PS4.

Ahem. Look at point number 2 in my post - that Sony had failed to promote any women to positions of authority like that. You may have just proven that Sony has failed to promote women to positions of power (in relation to the PS4 project anyway).

I am NOT assuming that there ISN'T ANY Sexism on any branch of Sony ever, or that Sexism in general is some illusion we need to ignore.
But the PS4 Reveal IS. NOT. the place where this matters. And dragging this topic kicking and screaming into it just hurts the greater issue.

Am I the OP? Did I post this topic on the Escapist? No. I didn't drag anything anywhere. The OP did.

I merely pointed out two possible issues that people are seeing this as a symptom of rather than the OP's fairly narrow interpretation. The OP missed the point, so I was explaining it to him.

So yeah, chilaxe Frybird. I don't think the PS4 presentation was a big deal. I think it is a very minor symptom of a larger problem.

 

[Frybird]

Let's look at who presented:
Mark Cerny - Lead PS4 Architect and Game Designer on Knack.
Dave Perry - CEO of Gaikai
Michael Denny - Vice President of Sony Worldwide Studios Europe
Andrew House - CEO of Sony Computer Entertainment Europe
They were not merely presenters, but at the very head of the development of the PS4. They clearly weren't chosen by gender, and not mainly chosen for being good presenters, but because they are actually responsible for the things revealed about the PS4.

Ahem. Look at point number 2 in my post - that Sony had failed to promote any women to positions of authority like that. You may have just proven that Sony has failed to promote women to positions of power (in relation to the PS4 project anyway).

...That is quite an overexaggeration.

We are not talking about positions of Authority, but the highest positions of Authority within the various companies of Sony....and thier Business Partners. Damn Sony for not putting a strong independent woman on top of Gaikai!

It's pretty unfair to Sony's subdevisisions to talk about failure in terms of not having a female being the BOSS.

Am I the OP? Did I post this topic on the Escapist? No. I didn't drag anything anywhere. The OP did.

I merely pointed out two possible issues that people are seeing this as a symptom of rather than the OP's fairly narrow interpretation. The OP missed the point, so I was explaining it to him.

So yeah, chilaxe Frybird. I don't think the PS4 presentation was a big deal. I think it is a very minor symptom of a larger problem.

Whilst i think it is a large problem to unfairly apply certain issues on mostly unrelated topics, devaluing the importance of said issue where they DO apply by making reactionary but illogical accusations whenever seemingly possible.
Just my two cents.

 

[CriticalMiss]

Not sexism, just another industry with a skewed gender population. I doubt there are many jobs that have a perfect 50/50 split or even something very close. It's not sexism some jobs just appeal more to one sex or the other but it's not active discrimination. Is the entire voting population of the USA sexist for not having voted in 20 plus female Presidents? No, because any that were running obviously weren't good or popular enough to get voted in. Would it be fair to force every other President to be female regardless of what the voters think just to be gender equal? Hell no. Someone in the UK said that the government should consist of a 50/50 split because it was unfair that there weren't more female cabinet members, most people agreed that person was an idiot.

Whilst it would be nice to see more women in gaming press conferences, announcements and the such I'm not all that bothered as I'd rather see someone who knows what they are doing irrespective of which genitals they are in possesion of. Better a coherent dude than a glassy-eyed token lady pushed on stage to appease some kind of social checklist of equality.

Maybe it's about time that we saw more deaf, octogenarian, Polynesian dwarves in the gaming industry. Fucking racist, age-ist, disablist, heightists!

 

[Assassin Xaero]

I work as a software developer, my office (we have two offices and a few other people around the country) has ten males and zero females. Even all my classes in college (ranging from 11 to 24 people) were all males. Does that make us sexist? No. It has mostly just been males who have applied and were qualified. Hiring women just to have more women in the industry IS sexism, because you are hiring them just because of their gender.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

"Is 50/50 gender population that important?"

Hmmm, lemme think-YES! Jesus fucking Christ, is it THAT goddamn hard for people to get it through their heads that maybe gaming should start trying to be more accommodating towards women? The games industry already (rightfully) has a bad rap of being a very insular boys' club, so it wouldn't hurt to try and dispel those ideas. Gaming needs to get over its cooties

 

[bounty90]

"Is 50/50 gender population that important?"

Hmmm, lemme think-YES! Jesus fucking Christ, is it THAT goddamn hard for people to get it through their heads that maybe gaming should start trying to be more accommodating towards women? The games industry already (rightfully) has a bad rap of being a very insular boys' club, so it wouldn't hurt to try and dispel those ideas. Gaming needs to get over its cooties

So a guy should be denied a job in programing where he ranks a 10 out of 10 to a girl who's skill's would rank mabey 8 out of 10, simply because she has a vagina? that's kind of sexist wouldent you say. If more boys try to get into the industry then girl's do you really think that there gonna be equal? that's like saying *lemme think-YES! Jesus fucking Christ, is it THAT goddamn hard for people to get it through their heads that maybe fashion salons should start trying to be more accommodating towards men?* just dosent make sense for all those girls to be told, sorry were looking for a man to paint nails.

 

[DarthSka]

I would say it's mostly due to a cycle. Men have made up most of the industry in the past, so women today decide not get into it. And because women decide not to enter the industry, it remains male dominated. Which leads back to the original point. Sure you'll find case-by-case examples of sexism, but that's present in every industry in some way.

Let's look at who presented:
Mark Cerny - Lead PS4 Architect and Game Designer on Knack.
Dave Perry - CEO of Gaikai
Michael Denny - Vice President of Sony Worldwide Studios Europe
Andrew House - CEO of Sony Computer Entertainment Europe
They were not merely presenters, but at the very head of the development of the PS4. They clearly weren't chosen by gender, and not mainly chosen for being good presenters, but because they are actually responsible for the things revealed about the PS4.

Ahem. Look at point number 2 in my post - that Sony had failed to promote any women to positions of authority like that. You may have just proven that Sony has failed to promote women to positions of power (in relation to the PS4 project anyway).

Did Sony fail to promote them, or did women fail to earn the promotion from Sony? I would likely say that the men they did give it to simply proved to be the most deserving of the promotions. Remember, there are more men in the industry so there's a greater chance that you're going to find men that are right for the job than you will women who are.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

Very much an exaggerated controversy.

I imagine Sony picked whatever presenters it felt would most effectively promote their product. If they had deliberately put a woman on stage to manipulate the emotions of the audience and make Sony look more PC, I would be more worried.

This just tells me something I already know (that there are not many women working in high-level game design). That's not Sony's fault; it's an industry-wide problem. There's no point repeating the debate over why this is the case in this thread, so I'll just conclude that this is one of those teacup storms and move on.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Let's look at who presented:
Mark Cerny - Lead PS4 Architect and Game Designer on Knack.
Dave Perry - CEO of Gaikai
Michael Denny - Vice President of Sony Worldwide Studios Europe
Andrew House - CEO of Sony Computer Entertainment Europe
They were not merely presenters, but at the very head of the development of the PS4. They clearly weren't chosen by gender, and not mainly chosen for being good presenters, but because they are actually responsible for the things revealed about the PS4.

Ahem. Look at point number 2 in my post - that Sony had failed to promote any women to positions of authority like that. You may have just proven that Sony has failed to promote women to positions of power (in relation to the PS4 project anyway).

Did Sony fail to promote them, or did women fail to earn the promotion from Sony? I would likely say that the men they did give it to simply proved to be the most deserving of the promotions. Remember, there are more men in the industry so there's a greater chance that you're going to find men that are right for the job than you will women who are.

That's a fine question, and there's really no way to know the answer for sure. However, I will point out that, of the four positions mentioned, only ONE requires game development experience. The larger number of male game programmers/designers than women only explains Lead PS4 Architect and Game Desinger Mark Cerny. There are plenty of female business majors.

And this isn't aimed specifically at Sony. Most businesses have male CEOs because of sexist promotion practices. Since you replied to a reply to my reply (and possibly a few more iterations), you're about three steps removed from the original context being discussed. Head up thread to my first post for relevance.

 

[TheBelgianGuy]

55-60% of archaeologists are male.
However, a smashing 90-95% of archaeologists working with computer software like GIS are male.

What's keeping ladies off computers? No idea, but that's how it is atm.

 

[MetalMagpie]

All the way through childhood, girls are generally discouraged from "boy stuff" and encouraged to like "girl stuff", and as it happens, boy stuff consists of technical orientated toys, games and entertainment whilst girl stuff consists of magic, pink and haircare. The process is self-sustaining too - parents get kids the toys they would have got as a child, whilst girls and boys will want the toys they see their corresponding friends and siblings playing with.

Maybe I was just a spoilt child, but my siblings and I got the toys we asked for! When we went to the shops, my sister would whine to get a new Barbie doll and I would whine to get a new Lego set.

Up to about the age of six, I wore dungarees pretty much the whole time, because that's what my parents dressed me in and I didn't care very much about clothes. From the age of four, my sister was throwing tantrums if my mother tried to dress her in anything that wasn't pink. My sister wanted to be "girly". She liked dressing up as a princess and treating dolls like they were real babies. I wanted to be an inventor/scientist/explorer. I liked digging holes in the garden and constructing marble runs out of cardboard.

My sister is now a copywriter. I'm a software developer. We are evidence points A and B in my mother's theory that children are actually fully-formed human beings from the moment they enter this world (rather than being blank slates). Because, in her words, "I treated you both exactly the same, but you were still completely different people from before you could even talk".

When I was a kid, I hated everything girly. Hated pink, hated Barbie, flowers, dresses, New Kids on the Block, didn't play with dolls, any of that. All my relatives knew I liked drawing, animals, dinosaurs, learning about science and overall pretty gender-neutral stuff. Yet every birthday, I was always dismayed to open present after present of troll dolls and girl toys I would never want to play with, and it was only the hope for that occasional video game from my mom and dad (who hated me playing video games) that would make me happy. I guess that my aunts and uncles just went with the "default girl gifts" because they had better things to think about than what I might really like, what with their busy adult lives, but I guess that's kind of the problem.

I mean, it's cool that you guys always got the toys you wanted, and I have no problem with girls liking dolls or anything like that. But there's a real pressure that steers girls towards girl shit that is pretty hard to avoid, even when as a kid you desperately tried to.

So being given girly stuff did nothing to make you more girly. Kids know their own minds a lot better than we give them credit for!

And yeah, I had an aunt who kept giving me pretty dresses (usually a size too small) and designer handbags, right up until my late teens. The day I learnt to sell stuff on ebay was a very good day.

 

[Frybird]

Let's look at who presented:
Mark Cerny - Lead PS4 Architect and Game Designer on Knack.
Dave Perry - CEO of Gaikai
Michael Denny - Vice President of Sony Worldwide Studios Europe
Andrew House - CEO of Sony Computer Entertainment Europe
They were not merely presenters, but at the very head of the development of the PS4. They clearly weren't chosen by gender, and not mainly chosen for being good presenters, but because they are actually responsible for the things revealed about the PS4.

Ahem. Look at point number 2 in my post - that Sony had failed to promote any women to positions of authority like that. You may have just proven that Sony has failed to promote women to positions of power (in relation to the PS4 project anyway).

Did Sony fail to promote them, or did women fail to earn the promotion from Sony? I would likely say that the men they did give it to simply proved to be the most deserving of the promotions. Remember, there are more men in the industry so there's a greater chance that you're going to find men that are right for the job than you will women who are.

That's a fine question, and there's really no way to know the answer for sure. However, I will point out that, of the four positions mentioned, only ONE requires game development experience. The larger number of male game programmers/designers than women only explains Lead PS4 Architect and Game Desinger Mark Cerny. There are plenty of female business majors.

And this isn't aimed specifically at Sony. Most businesses have male CEOs because of sexist promotion practices. Since you replied to a reply to my reply (and possibly a few more iterations), you're about three steps removed from the original context being discussed. Head up thread to my first post for relevance.

Again, why put a "female business major" on the stage if you can have the actual BOSS of the company?

And as you said "there's really no way to know the answer for sure", yet you automatically assume that the two CEOs, one of wich the actual founder of the company (That'd be Dave Perry, who also did previously not belong to Sony, btw), and the vice president all came to thier position because of "sexist promotion practices".

A CEO is (usually at least) a singluar position at a company, for obvious reasons, and you do not become a CEO per promotion along the corporate ladder, as well as there being no point in having a quota to fulfill here.

You are pushing the accusations pretty hard here...

 

[Darken12]

I think it IS sexism, but not in the way it's usually thought of. I think that this happens without anybody being overly prejudiced, but tends to happen to every minority or marginalised group. When a profession is made up almost exclusively by a given kind of person (white people, males, straight people, Christians and so on), even if they open their doors to minorities, a lot marginalised people are going to prefer to stay in the professions they were socialised to view as acceptable, and only the really brave ones will take the chance.

The problem is that when women make their way into an exclusively male profession (or any marginalised person makes their way into a profession occupied exclusively by people who are not like them), there is always a change of the status quo. If men are used to telling raunchy jokes and the woman feels uncomfortable as a consequence, she has a tough choice to make: will she just take it and be quiet, slowly growing resentful of the atmosphere? Or will she try to raise the issue with her superiors? The issue can get dismissed under a "boys will be boys" rationale, or actually get taken care of, and thereby cause the men to resent her for forcing them to change something they had got used to. And even if she doesn't complain or raise the issue, the men can end up changing that themselves to avoid making her uncomfortable, but they can't avoid the inevitable resentment that will eventually come to happen as they have to change their ways to accommodate for the newcomer.

The same thing also happens to LGBT people in a straight environment. When people say "Ugh, that's so gay!" or make a gay joke, the LGBT person is in the same position as the woman in the previous example. What do they do? Do they just put up with it or risk everyone resenting them? The same goes for a person of colour on a profession full of white people.

At the end of the day, people aren't likely to brave an environment that feels unwelcoming, and where every day you are reminded that you are fundamentally different from everyone else, that you don't fit in and never will, and that if you aren't careful, then everyone will turn on you.

Now, before anyone brings it up: yes, it's possible that, on an individual basis, this won't happen. It's possible that you can be a woman, LGBT person, or person of colour who finds a very tolerant environment where you fit in perfectly and there's no resentment from anybody at all. But these are exceptions. Most of the time, inserting yourself in an environment full of people who are different from you will turn out as I described above. I and many others can vouch for that from experience.

So yes, women make their own choices and choose not to enter the industry, but I personally can't blame them at all.

 

[Trishbot]

I don't know the answer to this.

I do know that I am a girl who likes games, who likes games with strong female characters, and even likes games by talented female game developers.

So... I would very much like more of that, please.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Again, why put a "female business major" on the stage if you can have the actual BOSS of the company?

The point being that sexist business practices are why is boss of the company is (almost) never a woman.

Also, again, I'm not particularly mad at Sony. I am merely explaining to those who don't "get it" why other people are upset.

When you work hard to refute my logic as to why other people are upset, you are missing the point - this is what they believe, so attacking me does nothing. If you want to remain ignorant of why other people are upset about this, then fine, go stick your head in the sand.

You can say you think they're wrong to be mad. Fine. But at least try to understand their side of the argument.

 

[BreakfastMan]

To answer the question in the thread title, yes it is, without a doubt. But the real question is: what sexism is this reflective of? A national, sexist culture that pushes women and men towards certain job roles, or sexism within the game industry itself? A bit of both, perhaps? That, I don't know and don't really have enough info to comment on.

 

[Voulan]

I don't know the answer to this.

I do know that I am a girl who likes games, who likes games with strong female characters, and even likes games by talented female game developers.

So... I would very much like more of that, please.

Same here, though I am surprised about the reaction to no female presenters. I honestly didn't notice, nor do I find it a big deal. Unless there's any tangible evidence that women are deliberately being turned away from a job over men, then there isn't anything to be concerned of.

But I do think we should have more female developers. I'd go for it myself, but you need to learn how to make games, then do some work experience making games, then apply for a job at a place to make games, which would mean I'd have to move countries and pay thousands for another degree. So maybe other women then.